Why wouldn't they? At the time, it was a favorable location, and they could 100% make it work in Glendale.
This just feels like it's ignoring.........reality.
CXLIX - FINAL thoughts on the Arizona Coyotes
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dj4aces
An Intricate Piece of Infinity
"Favorable" only because it was a venue the Coyotes could play at. It's easy to say "hey, there's a team there, but fans aren't showing up because hockey doesn't work in Phoenix". It's far different to actually dig deep and figure out why fans actually weren't showing up. As I understand it, Glendale is on the complete opposite side of town from where the bulk of the fans live.
To make it actually work in Glendale, there'd have to be a lot more going into it than just the "if you build it, they will come" model of sports franchise ownership.
Yukon Joe
Registered User
Why?
So let's "throat clear" here. I'm originally from Winnipeg, up until 2011 I was very actively cheering for the Coyotes to come back to the Peg. I'm definitely not a fan of the Yotes.
But seriously - given the success of teams like Nashville, Tampa, Florida, or Anaheim - there's no reason to think that Phoenix is somehow uniquely unsuited for hockey. Like I said - if someone would have invested in the Coyotes in 2008 that would have paid off very handsomely by 2024.
But it is what it is.
Personally (and this is just me) I blame it all on Wayne Gretzky - who on earth thought that putting him in charge of the team way back when, when he had no experience coaching whatsoever, would be a good idea? But really though there are many places to point fingers.
That's the point though. For a number of years we had the NHL, Coyotes, and politicians come out and say how great the arena and city was and they could make it work and blah blah. Once they couldn't convince the COG to give them money, all of a sudden that narrative changed.
At that time, they should have had no problem selling the team whatsoever given their public statements.
You're right, there is nothing inherently wrong with the Phoenix market and had there been a completely different set of circumstances that change the entire existence of the Coyotes, then yes, they could have survived.
And on the next episode of Marvel's What If...?
The first part of the above was sincere, but then it obviously took a sarcastic turn in responding to the rest of the post.
But also, no, they wouldn't have cashed in had they bought it in 2008 because even then, the team was still heavily in debt, had a poor location being in the suburbs, and being tied to a failed commercial district.
That line of thinking is similar to the one about Muruelo walking away with a billion dollars here.
dj4aces
An Intricate Piece of Infinity
Using those arguments ignores the deeper issues, some of which we may not learn about for years to come.
See, there were similar arguments about Atlanta, and why no one wanted to buy and keep that team here. People claiming (and some, who apparently don't read the news, still claim) that hockey "doesn't work" in Atlanta. But, as some folks have learned, it just wasn't that simple here. What makes anyone think similar jumps to conclusions are that simple in Phoenix?
The NHL, the Coyotes, and local politicians talking up the greater Phoenix area and arena is no surprise. I would say they were all doing their jobs at the time. They're not the ones you should be citing, as history shows (and in the case of politicians, the history of glossing over facts to paint a pretty picture is quite extensive, dontcha think?)
Shwan
Registered User
It's fairly straightforward. Before the crash Glendale was projected to grow into another white family-centric affluent suburb of Phoenix (Hockey's core demo). After the crash it grew into a mostly hispanic suburb. Nothing wrong with that in the least but I personally maintained there at the end of the franchise that grabbing Alec Martinez would have fared better for them over any chance of getting Matthews (the irony here being Auston's mother is from Mexico).
Sgt Schultz
Registered User
I lived in Phoenix in 1988-89. It has changed a lot, and yet it hasn't. The area was full of new developments that "everybody is going to move to" then, and it may be to this day. An awful lot of those wound up going wide of the net. Some started out just as they were sold to be, then peaked before they reached what they were sold to be. Some of those eventually pan out, but it is a land developer's gamble that should be avoided by sports franchises.
An NFL team (like the Arizona Cardinals) can generally survive in an area that doesn't turn out as planned. They have to sell seats 8 or 9 times a year, and their financial livelihood does not depend on selling tickets, anyway. They also play almost all their games on Sunday afternoons, where traffic should be lighter than during weekday evenings. No other major sport has those factors going in their favor.
One look at the Phoenix area "wealth map" points to the problem. The money is largely skewed east and to some degree north. That was probably always true (it was when I lived there), and all projections to the contrary, it is still.
For an NHL team to work there, they need two things that have been lacking pretty much since day one: solid ownership and an arena not 90 minutes (including traffic) from their fan base. Stepping back from the Coyotes history, those needs are not unique to Phoenix.
An NFL team (like the Arizona Cardinals) can generally survive in an area that doesn't turn out as planned. They have to sell seats 8 or 9 times a year, and their financial livelihood does not depend on selling tickets, anyway. They also play almost all their games on Sunday afternoons, where traffic should be lighter than during weekday evenings. No other major sport has those factors going in their favor.
One look at the Phoenix area "wealth map" points to the problem. The money is largely skewed east and to some degree north. That was probably always true (it was when I lived there), and all projections to the contrary, it is still.
For an NHL team to work there, they need two things that have been lacking pretty much since day one: solid ownership and an arena not 90 minutes (including traffic) from their fan base. Stepping back from the Coyotes history, those needs are not unique to Phoenix.
Even if we rewound everything back and Glendale didn't make their offer, how much longer would the Coyotes have survived at Footprint Arena? They were there from 1996 to late 2003 when they moved into Glendale, but would have spent like 2000 onwards still searching for an arena solution?
Probably, if they didn't land in Glendale, more likely to have been moved sooner if they didn't get an arena elsewhere.
It's the reality of arenas in the modern sports landscape, when it comes to the indoor ones for NBA/NHL. Logically, they should share. But, if you were there first and you have the arena management agreement, you are not giving up half that revenue to a rival sports entertainment league unless you have equity in that other team.
TheLegend
Hangman's booking agent... he'll do anything.
Don’t remember which Craig Morgan article (or podcast) has it, but then owner Richard Burke is on record stating around 2000 they would only have lasted downtown for another four years because of escalating player salaries.
This article doesn’t specify it but covers a lot of the history though.
The Glendale years: For the Coyotes, it was the best of times, but mostly, it was the worst of times - PHNX Sports
As the Arizona Coyotes prepare for their last game at Gila River Arena, PHNX Sports takes a detailed look at the Glendale years.
gophnx.com
2000 was still pre salary cap. So, with limited arena revenues available to them, that isn't a surprise.Don’t remember which Craig Morgan article (or podcast) has it, but then owner Richard Burke is on record stating around 2000 they would only have lasted downtown for another four years because of escalating player salaries.
This article doesn’t specify it but covers a lot of the history though.
The Glendale years: For the Coyotes, it was the best of times, but mostly, it was the worst of times - PHNX Sports
As the Arizona Coyotes prepare for their last game at Gila River Arena, PHNX Sports takes a detailed look at the Glendale years.
The main difference between the Avs, Stars, and Coyotes success is really the arena. Avs and Stars go to their new cities with really old barns and the leases were more favorable the arena owner (I assume that would have been the city). So, when it came time to build new ones, all clubs involved gained by sharing the costs of a new one given their limited revenues from the old barn. Not the case with the Coyotes since Footprint opened in 1992 and the Suns had the agreement.
My use of those arguments were done in a facetious manner to point out the stupidity of the counter arguments that we've heard for the past 15 years.
Having said that, whether or not you want to go into the "deeper issues" hole partially depends on what side you're on in a particular argument.
For the Coyotes, regardless of which tenure you're talking about, it boiled down to the team being heavily in debt, had a poor location being in the suburbs, and being tied to a failed commercial district meaning that regardless of what happened, they'd never be able to get a positive return on their investment.
For sure you can expand on that but no matter what we talked about, it usually boiled down to a few things.
For Atlanta, I have been quite vocal about how I'm already counting down the days until they move, and they haven't even been given a team yet. I followed their downfall close-ish and I understand why they failed. But the plan that's being put in place makes even less sense for a number of reasons. Time will obviously tell, but at least on a personal level, I, along with others who were saying similar things, were right about the Coyotes, and I am confident I, we, will be right againt.
TheLegend
Hangman's booking agent... he'll do anything.
Salary cap or not… the Coyotes were already shedding payroll while playing downtown because it wasn’t going to last. Given the fact they were a tenant only and had no revenue streams outside of ticket sales for games and some concessions.
If you read the article I linked you’d also know the NHL even back then was putting pressure on to get the arena situation sorted.
TheLegend
Hangman's booking agent... he'll do anything.
Llama19
Registered User
Shwan
Registered User
Things have definitely gotten a little bit more stabilized thanks to the housing crunch. Right now the sprawl is definitely strong in the east towards Queen Creek Arizona, which is quickly shooting up the charts in wealth charts for valley cities.
In hindsight I guess a huge indicator for Jr. Running the show would be the desire to place second chance up in North Phoenix. Makes sense for a Gen Z/Late Millennial to want to set up shop there rather than the absolute logical (but boring) choice of the Southeast Valley.
Queen Creek/Chandler/Gilbert/SE Mesa (Tech Corridor) has plenty enough of your core NHL demo (affluent white families) with growth still going strong. It's near a growing airport (Mesa Gateway) that could accommodate charter flights for easy access by teams. It would have been far enough from Phoenix (and Glendale) to mitigate arena politics. AND most importantly it doesn't have a high end luxury shopping district that Meruelo was looking to provide with the arena (something Queen Creek desperately needs).
Also lots of hassle free land that was out there circa 2022.
Bottom line is it's very likely any possible Coyotes site is going to have to be on the outskirts of the valley but for whatever reason the Meruelos thought trying to squeeze out Vestar etc. by putting plan B up there was a good idea.
TheLegend
Hangman's booking agent... he'll do anything.
No Fun Shogun
34-38-61-10-13-15
He got significantly richer and all it cost him was the enmity of a fanbase and sport that he probably never really cared about.
No Fun Shogun
34-38-61-10-13-15
What lies? He made a fortune and a load of people he doesn't care about are mad at him.
That's not to say that Bettman wasn't the real hatchetman here.
The second part of the statement is absolutely true.
The first part? Nah. Not even close.
No Fun Shogun
34-38-61-10-13-15
Again, what about that is untrue? He was paid a load more than what he put in both in the purchase and subsequent operating expenses, and the guy was clearly a weasel and happy to bounce while barely putting effort into getting the team or arena situation on right footing.
- Feb 18, 2018
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Llama19
Registered User
Betting app owned by former Coyotes owner Alex Meruelo shuts down after team's demise
To quote:
"SaharaBets was consistently one of the smaller betting platforms in Arizona, according to Arizona Department of Gaming data. In April, the most recent month with wagering data available, about $900,737 was wagered on the SaharaBets app. That puts the platform at the fourth smallest in terms of money wagered for the month. Bally Interactive, Seminole Hard Rock Digital and Golden Nugget Online Gaming did less business in Arizona in terms of wagers placed during the month.
The largest sportsbooks in the state, Fan Duel and DraftKings, saw about $230 million and $210 million worth of wagers placed on their mobile platforms in April."
Source: www.azcentral.com/story/money/business/consumers/2024/07/10/saharabets-the-betting-app-owned-by-alex-meruelo-shuts-down/74357914007/
To quote:
"SaharaBets was consistently one of the smaller betting platforms in Arizona, according to Arizona Department of Gaming data. In April, the most recent month with wagering data available, about $900,737 was wagered on the SaharaBets app. That puts the platform at the fourth smallest in terms of money wagered for the month. Bally Interactive, Seminole Hard Rock Digital and Golden Nugget Online Gaming did less business in Arizona in terms of wagers placed during the month.
The largest sportsbooks in the state, Fan Duel and DraftKings, saw about $230 million and $210 million worth of wagers placed on their mobile platforms in April."
Source: www.azcentral.com/story/money/business/consumers/2024/07/10/saharabets-the-betting-app-owned-by-alex-meruelo-shuts-down/74357914007/
KevFu
Registered User
There's a fundamental problem using the word "Survived." It's really misleading. A team in a big four league (probably MLS, too) could SURVIVE indefinitely, forever.
The Coyotes could still be surviving in Footprint Arena. They're not going out of business, they're just really really low in revenue compared to everyone else. It's not a GOOD situation, but they're not gonna be like "We can't afford to pay the players this week, so the team is folding." They'd just cycle through a series of owners who deal with a bad situation for a handful of years and sell the team.
Which is what the Oakland A's have been doing for over 30 years.
Right, that's the "This isn't worth our while" point for the owners of the franchise who want to either WIN as a hobby or make money as a business.
That's not the same thing as "it's impossible to make enough revenue to pay the players and staff and operations expenses." You just get enough from the league you're in to survive; it's only a case of the opportunity cost of making more money doing something else (Selling, relocating, etc).
Shwan
Registered User
Checked the numbers and the platform pocketed about $58k off April's $900,000 handle, doubt that covers overhead. Will be interesting to see May's numbers to see if the Sale even dissuaded anyone from placing bets.
I attempted to do the overall numbers but got bored not even a quarter of the way, the man lost soooooooo much money on Saharabets
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