CXLIX - FINAL thoughts on the Arizona Coyotes

[Sgt Schultz]

So its the chicken and egg. Some people say the market struggles because it has bad ownership. Others (myself included) say that potentially good ownership avoids the market because its a poor market.

I don't think we know any more about the Phoenix hockey market than we would have had the Coyotes not existed. Well, I guess we know that their support for a team that is generally underwhelming on the ice, in an arena in a bad location that was almost an afterthought, run by ownership that was largely buffoons, sometimes well-meaning, sometimes not will not work there. I'm not sure it would work anywhere, but not there. Did those factors cause the lukewarm support, or did they just mask what would have been lukewarm support regardless? I have no idea based on what happened.

Which leads me back to the thought that I don't think the NHL is pacing the floors to get a team back there unless a lot changes.

They were all planned…

Arizona wasn’t, and I will remind you (again) the NHL had told them they were never coming there prior to that.

As I remember it, the original plan for the relocation from Winnipeg was Minnesota. That didn't work out, so they wound up in Phoenix. It was almost like calling the moving company to pack up your stuff and when they ask where they are going, saying you don't know yet, just drive and you'll let them know later.

The entire thing was, well, "curious."

 

[aqib]

I don't think we know any more about the Phoenix hockey market than we would have had the Coyotes not existed. Well, I guess we know that their support for a team that is generally underwhelming on the ice, in an arena in a bad location that was almost an afterthought, run by ownership that was largely buffoons, sometimes well-meaning, sometimes not will not work there. I'm not sure it would work anywhere, but not there. Did those factors cause the lukewarm support, or did they just mask what would have been lukewarm support regardless? I have no idea based on what happened.

Which leads me back to the thought that I don't think the NHL is pacing the floors to get a team back there unless a lot changes.

As I remember it, the original plan for the relocation from Winnipeg was Minnesota. That didn't work out, so they wound up in Phoenix. It was almost like calling the moving company to pack up your stuff and when they ask where they are going, saying you don't know yet, just drive and you'll let them know later.

The entire thing was, well, "curious."

You're right we don't know for sure. My theory is given the how many guys are trying to buy sports teams, if the Phoenix market had a pulse when it came to hockey someone legit would have bought in.

Yes they were sold to guys who were going to move them to Minnesota but that didn't work so they pivoted. In retrospect the NHL should have managed the sale better and made sure they were sold to somone who had an arena deal. The group wouldn't have been able to go to say Portland since Paul Allen controlled the arena but NHL could have sold to Allen.

However, that moving truck scenario actually did play out with the Seattle Pilot/Milwaukee Brewers. Their equipment truck left spring training in Arizona and waited in Provo Utah for instructions on whether to go Milwaukee or Seattle

 

[Major4Boarding]

Well…

ISHBIA HOPES TO RETURN NHL TO PHOENIX, POSSIBLY IN NEW ARENA - Sportico

 

[ponder719]

Well…

ISHBIA HOPES TO RETURN NHL TO PHOENIX, POSSIBLY IN NEW ARENA - Sportico

What I'd really like to know is how this came up. Did Ishbia mention it unprompted, or was it "how do I give a politically useful answer to this question I didn't really want to be asked?"

As a fan of hockey with a friend living in Phoenix, I would absolutely love to see the Coyotes back as soon as is practical, but this definitely reads like "Let's circle back around to this when I'm trying to strongarm the city and state into public money for a new arena." (Being real, if his interest was materially more active than that, I expect Utah would be getting an expansion team, not the Coyotes.)

 

[Major4Boarding]

What I'd really like to know is how this came up. Did Ishbia mention it unprompted, or was it "how do I give a politically useful answer to this question I didn't really want to be asked?"

As a fan of hockey with a friend living in Phoenix, I would absolutely love to see the Coyotes back as soon as is practical, but this definitely reads like "Let's circle back around to this when I'm trying to strongarm the city and state into public money for a new arena." (Being real, if his interest was materially more active than that, I expect Utah would be getting an expansion team, not the Coyotes.)

 

[Tawnos]

What I'd really like to know is how this came up. Did Ishbia mention it unprompted, or was it "how do I give a politically useful answer to this question I didn't really want to be asked?"

As a fan of hockey with a friend living in Phoenix, I would absolutely love to see the Coyotes back as soon as is practical, but this definitely reads like "Let's circle back around to this when I'm trying to strongarm the city and state into public money for a new arena." (Being real, if his interest was materially more active than that, I expect Utah would be getting an expansion team, not the Coyotes.)

I do think he would've pushed for a new arena, rather than a renovation, had he owned the team in 2020.

 

[dj4aces]

It's cool (and not exactly a surprise) Ishbia is interested in bringing hockey back to Phoenix, but it's also something I don't see happening for a while yet because a new barn is needed. There's a number of ways this could shake out, including him being an investor in a Phoenix franchise, rather than the owner. In the meantime, I think the league is content to let the dust settle a bit in the Phoenix market before thinking about a return.

Just my two cents.

 

[TheLegend]

Well…

ISHBIA HOPES TO RETURN NHL TO PHOENIX, POSSIBLY IN NEW ARENA - Sportico

This is way off in the distance stuff.

Agree with a lot of what @ponder719 says above. Ishiba is perfectly content with Footprint right now. He's still trying to stabilize the Suns' roster to make it an annual championship competitor. Then there's the potential expansion fee to deal with.

A few months ago there was some independent chatter again about Phoenix building a new arena in the near future to replace Footprint but it lasted about a week. Anything involving public help isn't going to go over well. Phoenix was barely able to get the improvement to Footprint passed because it had a mechanism already in place to avoid any referendum challenge.

 

[StreetHawk]

It's cool (and not exactly a surprise) Ishbia is interested in bringing hockey back to Phoenix, but it's also something I don't see happening for a while yet because a new barn is needed. There's a number of ways this could shake out, including him being an investor in a Phoenix franchise, rather than the owner. In the meantime, I think the league is content to let the dust settle a bit in the Phoenix market before thinking about a return.

Just my two cents.

Remember back to the timeline of Sarver/Footprint. Their lease was due up in 2022 (30 year lease from 1992). So, in around 2020 while the Coyotes were still in Glendale is when the Suns and PHX agreed on a renovation as sarver didn't want the coyotes in the same arena as the suns had the management agreement, thus they would be taking less if they shared. Totally get that from a business POV, but it was bad for the fans.

Ishbia, entered after the arena was renovated and the least runs to 2037 after the renos. So, looking at a decade before the next pressure point of the arena comes up. That's probably his sell point to the city in either another massive reno or a brand new arena is that he'd bring an NHL team back.

 

[aqib]

Remember back to the timeline of Sarver/Footprint. Their lease was due up in 2022 (30 year lease from 1992). So, in around 2020 while the Coyotes were still in Glendale is when the Suns and PHX agreed on a renovation as sarver didn't want the coyotes in the same arena as the suns had the management agreement, thus they would be taking less if they shared. Totally get that from a business POV, but it was bad for the fans.

Ishbia, entered after the arena was renovated and the least runs to 2037 after the renos. So, looking at a decade before the next pressure point of the arena comes up. That's probably his sell point to the city in either another massive reno or a brand new arena is that he'd bring an NHL team back.

Just curious if a new arena would cost $1 billion give or take how much would it cost to essentially blow out a wall and expand the footprint of Footprint.

 

[StreetHawk]

Just curious if a new arena would cost $1 billion give or take how much would it cost to essentially blow out a wall and expand the footprint of Footprint.

I just recall PHX preferred to build a new one vs renovate Footprint to accommodate the Coyotes. Price tag just before Covid was probably under $600 mill to knock it down and go new.

Being realistic, the best option for the Coyotes was to be owned by the Suns owner as well. Again, sucks for timing that the Sarver stuff came out after the reno was done and not before the negotiations were going on. Maybe if that was the case the Coyotes could have been sold to Ishbia as well and they go with a new arena which would be completed already by now. Seems like a waste to spend like a quarter of a billion dollars to only to do a structural reno afterwards and have to redo the cosmetic stuff they already just did.

For Ishbia, he didn't try to save the Coyotes because they'd couldn't play out of Footprint. City won't foot the bill for another decade, not after putting in like $150-160 mill less than 5 years ago.

 

[GKJ]

 

[TheLegend]

I just recall PHX preferred to build a new one vs renovate Footprint to accommodate the Coyotes. Price tag just before Covid was probably under $600 mill to knock it down and go new.

Being realistic, the best option for the Coyotes was to be owned by the Suns owner as well. Again, sucks for timing that the Sarver stuff came out after the reno was done and not before the negotiations were going on. Maybe if that was the case the Coyotes could have been sold to Ishbia as well and they go with a new arena which would be completed already by now. Seems like a waste to spend like a quarter of a billion dollars to only to do a structural reno afterwards and have to redo the cosmetic stuff they already just did.

For Ishbia, he didn't try to save the Coyotes because they'd couldn't play out of Footprint. City won't foot the bill for another decade, not after putting in like $150-160 mill less than 5 years ago.

Word here locally is Ishiba wasn't keen on the billion dollar price tag to keep a team local. That and Footprint's ice system had been removed.


Going back to 2016....

Stanton: New Suns venue downtown should also house Coyotes - Cronkite News

Phoenix Mayor Greg Stanton highlights the city's accomplishments and its recovery from the Great Recession – and bashes the state Legislature – during his State of the City address on Tuesday.

cronkitenews.azpbs.org

Then Phoenix mayor Greg Stanton (now a US House Representative) considered a joint venture similar to Staples Center (now Crypto.com Arena) Whether that could be duplicated in Arizona without any political hijinx disrupting things is the big question.

But Ishiba is (what I'm describing as) the gatekeeper here.

 

[QuizGuy66]

Well…

ISHBIA HOPES TO RETURN NHL TO PHOENIX, POSSIBLY IN NEW ARENA - Sportico

Get thread CL ready

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Get thread CL ready

there is no Coyotes franchise......

 

[dj4aces]

What they say in the video is my thoughts exactly, and why I feel he would probably be an investor in a prospective arena and/or franchise, not necessarily part of the actual ownership.

 

[StreetHawk]

Price tag for expansion is going to be high. TB sold at a $1.4 billion valuation, so AZ won't get any cheaper.

And really, there is no reason for the NHL to allow the Coyotes to return to a non NHL ready arena when there are other options that are NHL ready. That was the requirement since the Nashville expansion. The last 6 expansion clubs all started when their arena was ready.

Just have to wait it out until the time comes for a new arena to be built.

But, like any other owner, he's going to try to get as much government assistance to build that new arena. Then it comes down to how he's going to share the revenues from that new arena with the NHL club. No NHL club is a tenant to an NBA controlled arena (like in Bos/Phi are in the NBA to an NHL controlled arena for example). So, he's going to have some equity in the NHL club. It has to make sense for someone else to own the Coyotes in whatever new arena is built.

 

[QuizGuy66]

there is no Coyotes franchise......

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

if you've been following..... once Meruelo pulled out of the land deal or the state cancelled it.... the Coyotes were then transferred back to the NHL..... the only thing they control is Tucson..... the current Utah AHL Affiliate

 

[QuizGuy66]

Yeah I just hope you guys get a team back. So I hope there are threads that go and report positive news toward that

 

[StreetHawk]

Yeah I just hope you guys get a team back. So I hope there are threads that go and report positive news toward that

With the timeline of the current lease with Footprint, it likely will take a dozen years. Not going to gain any traction on a new arena when the renovations were completed only like 3 years ago. And never know if Ishbia is still going to be the Suns owner in a decade either.

But, it's a positive that he's expressed interested. But, if cost is an issue like Fertittia in Houston, then that can be a major stumbling block for the NHL.

 

[TheLegend]

With the timeline of the current lease with Footprint, it likely will take a dozen years. Not going to gain any traction on a new arena when the renovations were completed only like 3 years ago. And never know if Ishbia is still going to be the Suns owner in a decade either.

But, it's a positive that he's expressed interested. But, if cost is an issue like Fertittia in Houston, then that can be a major stumbling block for the NHL.

There's nothing against something happening sooner regardless of the lease. Just depends on what the proposal would be.

Say..... if building a new joint arena downtown locked the Suns (and NHL) in for 30 years with hefty breakup clauses included (see Utah) then I could see the current Footprint lease getting voided well before 2037.

BUT.... it will take a number of things falling the right way.

 

[Sgt Schultz]

There's nothing against something happening sooner regardless of the lease. Just depends on what the proposal would be.

Say..... if building a new joint arena downtown locked the Suns (and NHL) in for 30 years with hefty breakup clauses included (see Utah) then I could see the current Footprint lease getting voided well before 2037.

BUT.... it will take a number of things falling the right way.

Yeah, leases are renegotiated or abandoned by both parties all the time......if the dollars and cents line up.

The timeline of solidifying the ownership group, getting arena plans settled, the financing finalized, all the approvals, the site prep work for a new building, construction, the NHL deciding it will expand, the timeline associated with selecting which (and how many) new teams, and then the period between selection and the first drop of the puck probably does not conflict terribly with the end of the Suns lease.

The best case for the NHL end of that is probably 5 years (so start of the 2029-30 season). The only way I think the best case gets better is if the NHL and Fertitta suddenly agree on an expansion fee and Atlanta is ready to go, as well. None of that includes Phoenix.

For Phoenix to get its end of that ironed out and a new arena constructed is probably a couple of years beyond that. By that time we are talking about terminating/rolling over the Suns lease 3-5 years before the current one ends. Negotiating terms for that is a lot less of an ordeal than 11 or 12 years.

And again, I think that timeline is rather aggressive the way things have gone historically. Could they surprise me? Of course, but between the track record and the fact I think the economy has a few chin-high slap shots yet to come, I would not bet on it.

 

[aqib]

Yeah, leases are renegotiated or abandoned by both parties all the time......if the dollars and cents line up.

The timeline of solidifying the ownership group, getting arena plans settled, the financing finalized, all the approvals, the site prep work for a new building, construction, the NHL deciding it will expand, the timeline associated with selecting which (and how many) new teams, and then the period between selection and the first drop of the puck probably does not conflict terribly with the end of the Suns lease.

The best case for the NHL end of that is probably 5 years (so start of the 2029-30 season). The only way I think the best case gets better is if the NHL and Fertitta suddenly agree on an expansion fee and Atlanta is ready to go, as well. None of that includes Phoenix.

For Phoenix to get its end of that ironed out and a new arena constructed is probably a couple of years beyond that. By that time we are talking about terminating/rolling over the Suns lease 3-5 years before the current one ends. Negotiating terms for that is a lot less of an ordeal than 11 or 12 years.

And again, I think that timeline is rather aggressive the way things have gone historically. Could they surprise me? Of course, but between the track record and the fact I think the economy has a few chin-high slap shots yet to come, I would not bet on it.

The NHL has decided it was ok with 2 years of transition with the Delta Center where they won't have NHL-standard capacity. So if you assume thats the standard that means the if the NHL would be willing to put a team back in Phoenix in 2035 if a deal is in place for new arena to open in 2037 (which is when the lease expires and Footprint will be 45 years old). That is assuming there is no way to expand Footprint.

 

[StreetHawk]

The NHL has decided it was ok with 2 years of transition with the Delta Center where they won't have NHL-standard capacity. So if you assume thats the standard that means the if the NHL would be willing to put a team back in Phoenix in 2035 if a deal is in place for new arena to open in 2037 (which is when the lease expires and Footprint will be 45 years old). That is assuming there is no way to expand Footprint.

Remember that for expansion all of Nash, Atlanta, Minnesota, Columbus, Vegas and Seattle all had nhl ready arenas before they joined.

Utah was a relocation. So they can deal with a less than ideal arena situation given what they were coming from. In Utah there are concrete plans and agreements in place versus hope in AZ still.

Coyotes returning would be another expansion so no reason for the nhl to have Them return until their arena is ready.

I do think the NHL will give their clubs a decent amount of heads up before expansion. The one to be concerned about from a current NHL team's POV is Houston as that city is ready to go with the least amount on notice. So, if you are handing out NMC with ED protection, that's on you if you get caught with ones you no longer want and or burn an ELC year when you could have pushed it another season. Everyone else, they will get the timeline for an arena to get ready.