Coyotes Tempe arena project rejected by public referendum - will remain at Mullett Arena for 2023-24

[theguardianII]

The NHL is reverting to a league that is in trouble, at least in terms of a public perception by this ongoing farce of keeping a team in an area that has rejected it so many times and had so many owners, such poor performance and now playing in front of 5000 fans.

It comes across as a league desperate to have a home to the uninitiated public.

There is a way out IMO and that requires the team trade for Austin Mathews. As much as Doan is liked in the market, Mathews would create much more favorable interest. He would become the face of the franchise not only because he is the homegrown boy but he is also one of the best players in the league.

I just can't see Bettman and company not pushing for a trade to Arizona, it makes too much business sense not to, it could solve a decades long problem and remove the taint of being a joke in professional sports, not just hockey but ALL professional sports

 

[StreetHawk]

I have nothing against Arizona or the Coyotes. I wish them nothing but the best, but it's been a few decades already. If you can't get shit to work in that time frame, then maybe it's best to let someone else try for a change.

Is there a reason why the NHL has never been able to find a good owner for this franchise.

With Glendale it was a real estate play by the former owner, and with Tempe it also a real estate play around an entertainment district.

Maybe that is just coincidence because the owner’s background is in development vs say technology.

But given the other arenas in Phoenix and in Glendale as competition, is another arena in any of Tempe, Mesa, Scottsdale capable of generating enough revenue on its own without the arena being part of a real estate transaction for the owner?

 

[Voight]

They could've rigged the draft for the next 5 years & it doesn't move the needle. The voters couldn't care less about hockey. People voted no because they heard "tax breaks for Billionaires" & it pissed them off. The team did a terrible job of getting their own message out there.

Nevemrind Meruelo is somewhat of a snake oil salesman.

This organization is a joke.

You're just figuring that out now?

 

[Boris Zubov]

Nevemrind Meruelo is somewhat of a snake oil salesman.

So is his front man, who was really the face of this project.

 

[Kimota]

Atlanta never made sense, I agree, but Houston successfully supported two versions of the Aeros. I don’t see why hockey wouldn’t work there now.

Cause it's hockey.

 

[Kimota]

I don't need to live in Quebec to know how passionate the fans are. The issue is THE SIZE OF THE MARKET especially with its proximity to Montreal.

Even metro Ottawa is almost double the size if QC and it is far from considered even a medium-sized market.

You conveniently ignored addressing the revenue QC would generate, which can already be ascertained by an equal-sized market in Winnipeg.

Why would I want to put a team in QC with its pre-existing ceiling of potential growth rather than try for a larger market where the potential is unknown and much greater? This new market could potentially generate double the revenues of any QC market team.

I know, I know....doesn't matter, QC is already passionate about hockey blah blah blah

Because as I mentioned times and times again, the size of a market is what you make it to be. You could have a city of 30 million people, if the interest in the product you want to give them amounts to a 50 thousand people, it won't move the needle. We have seen it times and times again in the NHL were places like Florida are a ghost town(they are only showing up this year cause they are in the playoffs). Quebec is much more vibrant town than Ottawa. In the late 80s, the Nords were in the last place for a couple of years yet still filled their arena. And believe me when I say the revenues to the NHL would explode one reason being they are near to Montreal cause of the rivalry. But the biggest thing is that you cannot just count only on the city itself. Because when the Nords were there, people from all over were coming to watch the games. We are now 8 million people in the province. You are talking a frenzy of this amount wanting to spend a bundle on merchs. It would be insane.

 

[ichbinkanadier]

Because as I mentioned times and times again, the size of a market is what you make it to be. You could have a city of 30 million people, if the interest in the product you want to give them amounts to a 50 thousand people, it won't move the needle. We have seen it times and times again in the NHL were places like Florida are a ghost town(they are only showing up this year cause they are in the playoffs). Quebec is much more vibrant town than Ottawa. In the late 80s, the Nords were in the last place for a couple of years yet still filled their arena. And believe me when I say the revenues to the NHL would explode one reason being they are near to Montreal cause of the rivalry. But the biggest thing is that you cannot just count only on the city itself. Because when the Nords were there, people from all over were coming to watch the games. We are now 8 million people in the province. You are talking a frenzy of this amount wanting to spend a bundle on merchs. It would be insane.

Meh, me thinks you overestimate.

Not sure what you mean by Quebec is more vibrant than Ottawa and how that pertains to market size.

And I guess it comes down to what your ultimate goal is: a team that will fill an arena but has extremely limited revenue ceiling or a market with unknown potential but potential to become a top end revenue generator.

Here's a question: forget Ottawa, what is unique about QC that despite being the same size as Winnipeg it could generate significantly more revenue than Winnipeg?

 

[Lady Stanley]

Because as I mentioned times and times again, the size of a market is what you make it to be. You could have a city of 30 million people, if the interest in the product you want to give them amounts to a 50 thousand people, it won't move the needle. We have seen it times and times again in the NHL were places like Florida are a ghost town(they are only showing up this year cause they are in the playoffs). Quebec is much more vibrant town than Ottawa. In the late 80s, the Nords were in the last place for a couple of years yet still filled their arena. And believe me when I say the revenues to the NHL would explode one reason being they are near to Montreal cause of the rivalry. But the biggest thing is that you cannot just count only on the city itself. Because when the Nords were there, people from all over were coming to watch the games. We are now 8 million people in the province. You are talking a frenzy of this amount wanting to spend a bundle on merchs. It would be insane.

I'll make it so simple even a woman like myself can understand it.


Market share represents the percentage of an industry, or a market's total sales, that is earned by a particular company over a specified time period. Market share is calculated by taking the company's sales over the period and dividing it by the total sales of the industry over the same period.


I mean this is literally something that should be covered in the 10th grade. In what world is a Houston team gonna sweep in(on a rebuild no less) and garner up any degree of market share against the NBA/NFL/MLB.

Dallas had a 30 year head start(when the NBA was far far weaker) and is still only a 10% market share.

Just compare Dallas to Calgary. When Alberta is booming Calgary will make more revenue for the league.

 

[Lady Stanley]

Meh, me thinks you overestimate.

Not sure what you mean by Quebec is more vibrant than Ottawa and how that pertains to market size.

A city of transplants, a downtown core that is tilted towards being stuffy.

The fact 1/4th of the metro is french should stand out as an indication that this city isn't a unified culture. Which is ironic because that population in my opinion has the biggest interest in the city.

In my limited knowledge people in ottawa stick to themselves. That being said that could all flip in a year with a proper arena fueling things up a little.

There's also a very limited/reserved working class in Ottawa. I never met someone from Ottawa who is remotrely proud or arrogant about the greatest of their city. That doesn't happen anywhere else in the world.

Ottawa is an artificial city created by the government. QC goes back 400 years.

And I guess it comes down to what your ultimate goal is: a team that will fill an arena but has extremely limited revenue ceiling or a market with unknown potential but potential to become a top end revenue generator.

As I said elsewhere Canada is the market. It's about maintaining the interest of people in Quebec. Quebec is a nationalistic place, it's one thing to right defeatest articles about getting whopped by American teams, than it is to have media discussions with one team against the other.

Here's a question: forget Ottawa, what is unique about QC that despite being the same size as Winnipeg it could generate significantly more revenue than Winnipeg?

About 5 times the number of people in the market. There's more people within a hundred miles of QC than there is in the entirety of Manitoba. It's also a cultural/tourist hub for Quebec.

It's literally like comparing Cleveland to Austin Texas, there is no comparison.

 

[zac]

If the Yotes do end up relocating, it should be to somewhere in either the central or mountain time zones (Houston? Austin? Kansas City? Milwaukee? OKC? SLC?) in order to maintain the current division alignment.

Austin makes some sense as it's pretty much the largest metro in the US without a pro team. Wisconsin itself is an area that could support a team, but Milwaukee, OKC, SLC and several others have the issue of being (by far) the smallest metro to have both an NBA and an NHL team. KC, also along with Milwaukee, would be the smallest metros to have 3 big 4 sports teams,

In KC the Royals are making a big push for a new stadium, something many local have a very hard time with. They just updated Kauffman 7-8 years ago to the tune of roughly 150 million. What's more, is the team consistently sucks with an ownership group that matches. Baseball is a tough, uphill sled for a small market team.

It would probably be cheaper for KC to make a push for an NHL team and let the Royals pound sand (and move). KC would definitely have enough support for 2 big 4 teams, from both a fan and corporate dollar perspective.

Selfishly I'd love it but realistically I doubt it happens. There are too many more "it" cities and "bigger markets" to choose from.

The most deserving is Quebec City. They never should have lost their team in the first place.

 

[Kimota]

Meh, me thinks you overestimate.

Not sure what you mean by Quebec is more vibrant than Ottawa and how that pertains to market size.

And I guess it comes down to what your ultimate goal is: a team that will fill an arena but has extremely limited revenue ceiling or a market with unknown potential but potential to become a top end revenue generator.

Here's a question: forget Ottawa, what is unique about QC that despite being the same size as Winnipeg it could generate significantly more revenue than Winnipeg?

Far more! It would be insane. Because it's not as boring as Winnpeg or Ottawa. The rivalry with the Habs would make it explode. And there's a big nationalistic angle to it like i mentioned with 8 million hockey mad people joining the dance. Quebecers are like the hispanics of the North.

 

[ichbinkanadier]

A city of transplants, a downtown core that is tilted towards being stuffy.

The fact 1/4th of the metro is french should stand out as an indication that this city isn't a unified culture. Which is ironic because that population in my opinion has the biggest interest in the city.

Over half of the population is bilingual. French/English is immaterial here now. The Levesque generation lost that battle.

But the transplants is right. Stuffy? Meh...Toronto is the standard for me for that.

In my limited knowledge people in ottawa stick to themselves. That being said that could all flip in a year with a proper arena fueling things up a little.

There's also a very limited/reserved working class in Ottawa. I never met someone from Ottawa who is remotrely proud or arrogant about the greatest of their city. That doesn't happen anywhere else in the world.

Ottawa is an artificial city created by the government. QC goes back 400 years.



As I said elsewhere Canada is the market. It's about maintaining the interest of people in Quebec. Quebec is a nationalistic place, it's one thing to right defeatest articles about getting whopped by American teams, than it is to have media discussions with one team against the other.


About 5 times the number of people in the market. There's more people within a hundred miles of QC than there is in the entirety of Manitoba. It's also a cultural/tourist hub for Quebec.

It's literally like comparing Cleveland to Austin Texas, there is no comparison.

Metro QC and metro Wimmipeg are both around 850K

Having a large outlying population doesn't transfer to sell outs (for a lease where the majority if home games fall on a weekday)

It may be an asset for tv, but then you have Montreal already established in that same market (the Sens still have to compete with Habs and Leafsnfor fan loyalty) and I'm sure there are still many Rangers fans in Brooklyn and even Queens and Northern New Jersey. Unlike NYC boroughs, QC isn't a 2 million+ densely populated area.

 

[ichbinkanadier]

I'll make it so simple even a woman like myself can understand it.


Market share represents the percentage of an industry, or a market's total sales, that is earned by a particular company over a specified time period. Market share is calculated by taking the company's sales over the period and dividing it by the total sales of the industry over the same period.


I mean this is literally something that should be covered in the 10th grade. In what world is a Houston team gonna sweep in(on a rebuild no less) and garner up any degree of market share against the NBA/NFL/MLB.

The comparison isn't to other leagues, it's to other markets within the NHL. AN NHL team in Houston may pale in comparison to the other three, but if marketing works combined with a good on ice product, it can potentially exceed any revenue QC can generate plus you've created a new core fan base.

Dallas had a 30 year head start(when the NBA was far far weaker) and is still only a 10% market share.

Just compare Dallas to Calgary. When Alberta is booming Calgary will make more revenue for the league.

Can you point me to a time period where this was the case?

And Calgary is twice the size of metro QC (and funny enough a lot if transplants)

 

[ichbinkanadier]

Far more! It would be insane. Because it's not as boring as Winnpeg or Ottawa. The rivalry with the Habs would make it explode. And there's a big nationalistic angle to it like i mentioned with 8 million hockey mad people joining the dance. Quebecers are like the hispanics of the North.

Living in Ottawa, traveling to Montreal and QC I can wholeheartedly agree, it's a vibrant culture, but still don't think that would translate to higher revenue necessarily.

Yes, there's the 8 million..BUT...Montreal has been well established in that province for over 100 years. How far out of the metro area could a Quebec team make/convert fans? And that rivalry would be 4 games out of 41. Hardly a difference maker.

 

[RayMartyniukTotems]

With terrible attendance the Arizona-Phoenix-Tempe-Glendale Coyotes are the new version of the 1967-76 Oakland Seals,California Golden Seals! And its the graveyard and contracting dumping ground! Why bother sell all the players and put a Team in Quebec City

Living in Ottawa, traveling to Montreal and QC I can wholeheartedly agree, it's a vibrant culture, but still don't think that would translate to higher revenue necessarily.

Yes, there's the 8 million..BUT...Montreal has been well established in that province for over 100 years. How far out of the metro area could a Quebec team make/convert fans? And that rivalry would be 4 games out of 41. Hardly a difference maker.

And play-offs the way Gary has rigged the format! Quebec Nordiques rivalry with Montreal Canadiens was unmatched anywhere

 

[ichbinkanadier]

With terrible attendance the Arizona-Phoenix-Tempe-Glendale Coyotes are the new version of the 1967-76 Oakland Seals,California Golden Seals! And its the graveyard and contracting dumping ground! Why bother sell all the players and put a Team in Quebec City


And play-offs the way Gary has rigged the format! Quebec Nordiques rivalry with Montreal Canadiens was unmatched anywhere

You realize there's a Board of Governors that votes on everything? How do you figure everything that happens is done by Bettman's sole power?

 

[Kimota]

Over half of the population is bilingual. French/English is immaterial here now. The Levesque generation lost that battle.

But the transplants is right. Stuffy? Meh...Toronto is the standard for me for that.

Metro QC and metro Wimmipeg are both around 850K

Having a large outlying population doesn't transfer to sell outs (for a lease where the majority if home games fall on a weekday)

It may be an asset for tv, but then you have Montreal already established in that same market (the Sens still have to compete with Habs and Leafsnfor fan loyalty) and I'm sure there are still many Rangers fans in Brooklyn and even Queens and Northern New Jersey. Unlike NYC boroughs, QC isn't a 2 million+ densely populated area.

Again it really does not matter. I went to watch the Devils in the 90s a couple of times. Because me and my friends were visiting NYC and couldn't get Rangers tickets. And kept changing seats during the games cause of how much of a ghost town that arena was. You could buy cheap tickets in the top level areas then finish the game near the ice. You could say the New York area has many people. But they are not hockey mad. They are just Rangers fans and that's it.

Living in Ottawa, traveling to Montreal and QC I can wholeheartedly agree, it's a vibrant culture, but still don't think that would translate to higher revenue necessarily.

Yes, there's the 8 million..BUT...Montreal has been well established in that province for over 100 years. How far out of the metro area could a Quebec team make/convert fans? And that rivalry would be 4 games out of 41. Hardly a difference maker.

When the Nords were there , people from all over the province would come watching the games. Not only because of the interest in the Nords but because the Habs tickets were expensive. That must be why they would fill the Colisée even though they finished dead last for a couple of years. As for the Habs rivalry, it's so natural. You had to see it in the heydays. Every french sport channels and radio shows and papers were talking about it. It was literally a cultural war and it made the game special and unique in that area. If they can do this again, you would be shocked how much money it would generate. Not to mention I think cause of the inscriptions. Because in the last 20 years hockey has dropped in the province because kids don't play it anymore for a variety of reasons one being families nowadays prefer to practice familal sport like skying. And the Nords leaving was a big reason for it too. And them coming back I believe would reignite the passion. Every kids is gonna want to not miss games like before. And it would be great for hockey in Canada. Not to mention providing more future stars for the NHL.

 

[Scouter]

Forbes has Winnipeg's revenue at $150m a year, that's not the best but it's significantly more than Arizona or Florida and you're definitely not doubling that anywhere.

The business case for Quebec is really good at the team level. You get a guaranteed packed new building right away. It's for the league that it is less advantageous. The league is concerned with the U.S. TV contract and is more interested in creating new fans than reshuffling Canadian fans.

There is not enough corporate money in QC.

And what do the two teams you cited have in common? They've been crappy teams for a very extended period of time (Florida's success is very new and not long enough to establish a consistent fan imvolvement)

Other non-traditionl markets who have had success are creating larger revenue streams than the hockey-mad market of Winnipeg.

If Canada suddenly had it's population distributed amongst 12 cities, no doubt you'd see 12 Canadian teams cause then there'd be too much money to be made to resist. The drawback of being a country with a small population spread out over a vast expanse.

The Jets are not a crappy team, they are making the playoffs pretty often.

 

[ichbinkanadier]

Again it really does not matter. I went to watch the Devils in the 90s a couple of times. Because me and my friends were visiting NYC and couldn't get Rangers tickets. And kept changing seats during the games cause of how much of a ghost town that arena was. You could buy cheap tickets in the top level areas then finish the game near the ice. You could say the New York area has many people. But they are not hockey mad. They are just Rangers fans and that's it.

The 90s ended 23 years ago, a lot can change in 24 years. It may still be the same, it may not be. And that is not something unique to hockey teams in the U.S. interest in teams rise and fall in any sport in any market. The only exception apparently is football, which plays 9 games a year.

When the Nords were there , people from all over the province would come watching the games. Not only because of the interest in the Nords but because the Habs tickets were expensive. That must be why they would fill the Colisée even though they finished dead last for a couple of years. As for the Habs rivalry, it's so natural. You had to see it in the heydays. Every french sport channels and radio shows and papers were talking about it. It was literally a cultural war and it made the game special and unique in that area. If they can do this again, you would be shocked how much money it would generate.

If the Nordiques made so much money why did they leave? Who abandons a cash cow?

Not to mention I think cause of the inscriptions. Because in the last 20 years hockey has dropped in the province because kids don't play it anymore for a variety of reasons one being families nowadays prefer to practice familal sport like skying. And the Nords leaving was a big reason for it too. And them coming back I believe would reignite the passion. Every kids is gonna want to not miss games like before. And it would be great for hockey in Canada. Not to mention providing more future stars for the NHL.

Hockey participation could be declining dir any number if reasons besides the Nordiques leaving. Immigration is changing the demographics of the country and immigrants are veering towards basketball, soccer, and football. The NHL did a piss poor job of marketing itself to immigrants and creating a welcoming culture.

The francophone population is dwindling itself because the birth rare is so low. I've come across many accounts that foresee the francophone population becoming so small that combined with an immigrant population that will want to learn English over French, Quebec- despite the government's efforts- could end up an anglophone province, albeit one with a sizeable French minority. The relevance of this is the traditional fan base in Quebec has been francophone, so a decrease in the general population could mean a decrease in both hockey participation and Fandom.

There is not enough corporate money in QC.


The Jets are not a crappy team, they are making the playoffs pretty often.

Not sure what point you're trying to get across with this statement

 

[Scouter]

The 90s ended 23 years ago, a lot can change in 24 years. It may still be the same, it may not be. And that is not something unique to hockey teams in the U.S. interest in teams rise and fall in any sport in any market. The only exception apparently is football, which plays 9 games a year.

If the Nordiques made so much money why did they leave? Who abandons a cash cow?

Hockey participation could be declining dir any number if reasons besides the Nordiques leaving. Immigration is changing the demographics of the country and immigrants are veering towards basketball, soccer, and football. The NHL did a piss poor job of marketing itself to immigrants and creating a welcoming culture.

The francophone population is dwindling itself because the birth rare is so low. I've come across many accounts that foresee the francophone population becoming so small that combined with an immigrant population that will want to learn English over French, Quebec- despite the government's efforts- could end up an anglophone province, albeit one with a sizeable French minority. The relevance of this is the traditional fan base in Quebec has been francophone, so a decrease in the general population could mean a decrease in both hockey participation and Fandom.


Not sure what point you're trying to get across with this statement

Pretty obv.

 

[ichbinkanadier]

Pretty obv.

Wasn't trying to be a smart ass. Truly didn't know if you were agreeing with my point or trying to counter it.

 

[Lady Stanley]

The comparison isn't to other leagues,

That's exactly how it works. Fans in Houston are far far morelikely to be fans of multiple sports/franchises, your entertainment dollars are split amongst franchises.

I get a lot of Americans on this board are hockey only folks, in part because its their identity living in a market where everything else is so popular but that isn't the norm. You're trying to pull fans from other sports, and it's why you'll always have an uphill battle when you have Big 3 + college teams already firmly established in the market.

And it's not just making someone a fan, you need to be a fan that prioritize your merch purchases etc on the team.

As I said Dallas got in at the right time. When sports weren't so money intensive and the NBA wasn't such a big fish.

it's to other markets within the NHL. AN NHL team in Houston may pale in comparison

10% of a market equates to like 600,000 people. And you can just look up team revenues and see the lack of a gap between a market like Calgary and a market like Dallas.

You need 30 years to capture the equivalent of 600,000 fans. 30 years to be on par with QC.

The southern expansion was entirely based on a Hockey being bigger than basketball. Gary came from Basketball and he thought it was doable and sold that pipe dream to the owners.

30 years later hockey is still primarily a north east-mid west thing.

to the other three, but if marketing works combined with a good on ice product, it can potentially exceed any revenue QC can generate plus you've created a new core fan base.

Your "potential" is dependent on hockey being as popular as Basketball in non traditional markets. For that to happen hockey has to take off nationality, if that needs to happen first why not wait until that happens and then expand?

Can you point me to a time period where this was the case?

Just google flames revenue compared to dallas, factor in that the dollar is slight below the ideal 75 cents versus 82ish cents. Add to that the price of tar sands oil is relatively low.

A few dollar rise in oil prices and Calgary revenues would go up if they had the on ice product offered by the stars.

And Calgary is twice the size of metro QC (and funny enough a lot if transplants)

I'm illustrating that Calgary is perfectly large for a team, it's not a small market. It's the ideal market as you have a monopoly on entertainment, you never have to worry about an NBA team sneaking into the market and chocking your revenue, heck not even the MLS is a threat.

Transplants alone are not a problem, Calgary has "attitude" //collective identity in spades. It has working class/upper middle class etc all existing as a unified city. The problem with Ottawa for simple identity has to do with a lack of unifying force. If you don't like government you're not all jazzed up about parliament. If you don't speak french Gatineau feels like a whole other city. There's not a ton of working class industry in Ottawa. A lot of the locals identify with the general area(rural cottages etc) then they do the city proper. And because of this a whole not of noobies don't care to integrate as there's nothing to get behind.

 

[Lady Stanley]

You realize there's a Board of Governors that votes on everything? How do you figure everything that happens is done by Bettman's sole power?

It's called institutional power. The federal reserve sets interest rates, they don't need control over the federal budget to have immense influence and power.

The same thing applies with the league. NHL owners aren't a pluralistic democracy where owners spend 40 hours a week in a room debating about what to do next.

It's far more one on one conversations/ factions of team owners pushing agendas etc.

Gary being in the middle of it all, has the ability to make and break agendas/motivations.

The first thing Gary pushed was set Arena sizes, directly making it so smaller markets can't compete. He sold the owners on being ahead of the NBA and did not deliver. With that he also help steer the league towards territorial rights, stricter expansion criteria, salary caps, He chased the American contract at all costs instead of building growing hockey value in the Midwest. etc all things that steered the league away from Canadian markets.

You don't have to create a mandate of "we hate Canadian teams" to create a perfect storm of conditions where Canadian teams are held back.

 

[MikeyMike01]

Billionaires griping that the political machine they created is failing their agenda, I could cry I'm so happy.

It never fails the billionaires. It’s just a matter of which billionaires win.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Jesus Christ, man. Hate to see anyone losing their team like this.

Ah yes, the "high powered labor unions." The boogeyman of billionaires. I guess they couldn't pin it to illegal immigration?

People are focusing on money spent to lobby on this, but maybe they should have done better with some actual community outreach as well? Try and involve the neighborhoods and communities affected by the new stadium.