Coyotes Tempe arena project rejected by public referendum - will remain at Mullett Arena for 2023-24

[Golden_Jet]

If the Nordiques made so much money why did they leave? Who abandons a cash cow?

A 60 cent dollar

 

[ichbinkanadier]

As an european in can Tell you that that won't Happen. Like ever.
Atleast Not when they are in their Prime.
And afterwards they Go where the Money is best.

But beforehand they want to compete in the best leagues in the world and compete for in the best competitions.

Then you best pray Americans don't take to soccer. If they do, European soccer will be on par with their hockey leagues and MLS will be where all the stars go. Luckily for you, it's not likely Americans will develop that level of passion in the foreseeable future

 

[ichbinkanadier]

You'd get more weight if you told me you were from South America. It doesn't happen all at once, it'd be a gradual process.

Kinda like growing the NHL in the American, non-traditional markets, eh?

 

[ichbinkanadier]

In case anyone needed another reason to question union intentions...

They started off with good intentions...now they're just there to the union administrators themselves employed

A 60 cent dollar

Didn't force six other teams to leave

 

[Golden_Jet]

They started off with good intentions...now they're just there to the union administrators themselves employed


Didn't force six other teams to leave

Actually it did, Quebec and Winnipeg left, Ottawa ended up in bankruptcy.

 

[Rich Nixon]

In case anyone needed another reason to question union intentions...

I'm going to quote myself from a few pages back.

I've mentioned this prior, but I'm baffled by that bit of information. The only person reporting it was Seravalli, citing an "NHL source." Not a single local report from Arizona mentions union opposition or spending, nowhere is it reported what union and how the money was spent (TV ads, direct mail? GOTV efforts and canvassing?)

Most of the local reporting points out that the "no" PAC was outspent by the Coyotes/NHL something like 30:1. And due to that local reporting and the fact that PAC expenditures are publicly reported, we know that the $250k number is wrong--they spent much more than that.

So, I trust Frank as a hockey reporter--local politics? Maybe not as much. I'm really scratching my head at the veracity of that claim, because it's just not corroborated anywhere else.

Staying on the theme:

Ah yes, the "high powered labor unions." The boogeyman of billionaires. I guess they couldn't pin it to illegal immigration?

People are focusing on money spent to lobby on this, but maybe they should have done better with some actual community outreach as well? Try and involve the neighborhoods and communities affected by the new stadium.

I did find one (1) local media mention, but not in a piece of reportage. It was in an Arizona Republic opinion piece, with the writer saying:

[Former Tempe mayor Hugh] Hallman pointed to unions, mostly in California, that demanded that the Coyotes build their project with all union labor. When the Coyotes, to their credit, refused, the unions powered the “no” campaign.

Hallman is well informed, so I’ve no doubt there’s truth there.

Hallman was lobbying on the "yes" team, so it's not an unbiased take, to say the least. Even that writer indicates lack of corroboration, and both the opinion writer and that former mayor are firmly from the "unions=bad" side of the aisle. So seems like boogeymanning and excuse-making, this time with a bonus boogeyman: not just EVIL UNIONS, but EVIL UNIONS from SCARY CALIFORNIA!!!

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

I'm going to quote myself from a few pages back.



Staying on the theme:



I did find one (1) local media mention, but not in a piece of reportage. It was in an Arizona Republic opinion piece, with the writer saying:



Hallman was lobbying on the "yes" team, so it's not an unbiased take, to say the least. Even that writer indicates lack of corroboration, and not to drag the politics into this story about, well, politics, but...both the opinion writer and that former mayor are firmly from the "unions=bad" side of the aisle. So boogeymanning and excuse-making seems like the name of the game—and this time he includes not just UNIONS, but unions from SCARY CALIFORNIA!!!

yeah when I looked into it the only source or mention of the big scary California unions all comes from Hallman.

 

[Rich Nixon]

yeah when I looked into it the only source or mention of the big scary California unions all comes from Hallman.

Big "girlfriend in another state" vibes. But based on this thread and Twitter it had the desired effect for some of the audience...it wasn't that the voters didn't want it or the billionaires didn't make their case well enough, it's that unnamed evil unions are just an unstoppable force, manipulating local elections from a whole other state (through some unstated means—witchcraft? some other devil-worship thing?)

 

[Ice9]

Ohioan here who'd love to see a Nordique resurgence!! Atlanta deserves nothing. Houston ehhh, No more FLA teams.

I can break out my brand new, old Nords hat!!!

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Big "girlfriend in another state" vibes. But based on this thread and Twitter it had the desired effect for some of the audience...it wasn't that the voters didn't want it or the billionaires didn't make their case well enough, it's that the evil unions are just an unstoppable force, manipulating local elections from a whole other state.

Agreed. And honestly as someone who lives in California and has to deal with the stupid proposition system here, it's asking a lot for voters to understand, care about, and vote in favor of three separate propositions that are all necessary to build a stadium.

It probably also didn't help that the guy proposing this new arena got kicked out of the old one for delinquent tax bills and arena charges.

 

[StreetHawk]

Agreed. And honestly as someone who lives in California and has to deal with the stupid proposition system here, it's asking a lot for voters to understand, care about, and vote in favor of three separate propositions that are all necessary to build a stadium.

It probably also didn't help that the guy proposing this new arena got kicked out of the old one for delinquent tax bills and arena charges.

For something as important as remediation, you want someone trustworthy of doing it both correctly and actually completing it, not having money disputes with the company hired to do the cleanup. Don’t want to see it left half done and having to stop because of unpaid invoices.

Reputation matters…

 

[Sniper99]

If I were a Tempe resident I would have voted no as well.

Most residents probably didnt know there was an NHL team playing at Mullett last year.

Been to Phoenix 4 times in 6 years now and every time i go into a fan apparel store, I dont see one single Coyotes item. All DBacks Suns Cardinals and ASU Arizona NCAA stuff.

 

[ichbinkanadier]

Actually it did, Quebec and Winnipeg left, Ottawa ended up in bankruptcy.

...six other teams....

You can't blame the exchange rate if only 2 of 8 teams up and left.

And Ottawa's financial issues began the day they joined the league. They had no business getting a team but they were one of only two teams willing to pay the $50 million fee which they could never actually afford

 

[TheLegend]

In case anyone needed another reason to question union intentions...

The be fair…. Meruelo had endorsements from local unions.

Work Force PAC was the group behind the No campaign. They’re a national group based in Los Angeles and lobby for unions all across the US. They did the heavy lifting making a series of standalone transactions.

This was done all outside the Tempe1st group.

In this case Work Force was representing unions in California who wanted in on the construction of TED shutting out the locals. Meruelo wanted Arizona workers on the project.

 

[ichbinkanadier]

Ohioan here who'd love to see a Nordique resurgence!! Atlanta deserves nothing. Houston ehhh, No more FLA teams.

I can break out my brand new, old Nords hat!!!

Buffalo would be happy; it'd then be the 3rd smallest market

 

[Edenjung]

Then you best pray Americans don't take to soccer. If they do, European soccer will be on par with their hockey leagues and MLS will be where all the stars go. Luckily for you, it's not likely Americans will develop that level of passion in the foreseeable future

???
The champions league is still sthe competition in Football.
Thats what the world watches. Thats where the players wanna be.

 

[ichbinkanadier]

???
The champions league is still sthe competition in Football.
Thats what the world watches. Thats where the players wanna be.

Because that's where the stars play right now.

Make no mistake, if MLS was generating revenues to allow them to outbid Euroepan leagues, the players would go where the money is and say screw Champions League, FA Cup, any national league titles.

 

[Rich Nixon]

The be fair…. Meruelo had endorsements from local unions.

Work Force PAC was the group behind the No campaign. They’re a national group based in Los Angeles and lobby for unions all across the US. They did the heavy lifting making a series of standalone transactions.

This was done all outside the Tempe1st group.

In this case Work Force was representing unions in California who wanted in on the construction of TED shutting out the locals. Meruelo wanted Arizona workers on the project.

You're local, right? I'll take that on your authority (can't find any shred of menton of such PAC's existence on a cursory search, though some I am sure do that by design). I'm interested in where you're getting that and what the expenditures would have been on—mail, TV, robo-calls, mobilization?

 

[VivaLasVegas]

The more curious question is why the owner of a franchise that probably could be sold for $1 billion, albeit to somebody who would move it, didn't himself put down the advertising bucks to try get it done.

 

[Kryten]

The more curious question is why the owner of a franchise that probably could be sold for $1 billion, albeit to somebody who would move it, didn't himself put down the advertising bucks to try get it done.

A billion? Would be lucky to get 20% of that. Winnipeg got the Thrashers for 170m and that included a 60m relocation fee

 

[VivaLasVegas]

A billion? Would be lucky to get 20% of that. Winnipeg got the Thrashers for 170m and that included a 60m relocation fee

Kraken paid $650M but the recent talk about Atlanta was that the fee would be in the $1B range and the upcoming sale of the Senators is rumored to be around the same range.

 

[TheLegend]

You're local, right? I'll take that on your authority (can't find any shred of menton of such PAC's existence on a cursory search, though some I am sure do that by design). I'm interested in where you're getting that and what the expenditures would have been on—mail, TV, robo-calls, mobilization?

It’s a bit tricky, but Tempe has a page on elections and you have to navigate a few subpages to were you get to the public finance reports listings.

This link should get you to the list.

Easy Campaign Finance

cityoftempeaz.easyvotecampaignfinance.com

Now you will see a listing for “PAC/Tempe1st”. The Tempe1st name was poached by the real group, PAC/Democracy For Tempe. (There’s a side story to that but I don’t want to e this further.). You won’t find a lot of money going through them.

PAC/Tempe Wins of course was the Coyotes group.

You will also see a listing “IE/Work Force” and it contains a list of individual expenditures made by them under “No on 301,302,and 303”. And those are quite large. They cover production, printing, video work….. etc.

 

[Kryten]

Kraken paid $650M but the recent talk about Atlanta was that the fee would be in the $1B range and the upcoming sale of the Senators is rumored to be around the same range.

Senators come with an arena. Yotes come with a PO box. Kraken was expansion, relocation is different. Big doubt on 1b for Atlanta

 

[gritdash60]

I understand the pushback from Coyotes fans and all, but the team has sucked for a long time. Well to be fair they have one conference finals run and that's their only one beyond the quarter finals.

They spend to the floor and now got a new arena plans voted off, if you ask me it would insanity not to relocate the team.

What is the alternative? Keep the team there and let them play in an arena that has 5000 seats and hope they figure a way to get a new arena, where they will again ice a cap floor team? No offense to any Coyotes fans really but i dont understand how and why the team shouldnt be relocated.

 

[VivaLasVegas]

Senators come with an arena. Yotes come with a PO box. Kraken was expansion, relocation is different. Big doubt on 1b for Atlanta

Fertitta would probably pay $1B for them and he already has a stadium in Houston, but certainly the Yotes are worth well north of $500M on even a bad day.

Which goes to my original point that the Yotes owner should have been willing to drop a few million on advertising, but didn't for whatever reason ... most likely internal polling told him that it was a dead deal for voters no matter how much money he spent.