Coyotes Tempe arena project rejected by public referendum - will remain at Mullett Arena for 2023-24

LightningStorm

Lightning/Mets/Vikings
Dec 19, 2008
3,318
2,318
Pacific NW, USA
I just don't get Bettman having such an inflated ego when it comes to the Coyotes staying in Arizona. Those who wanted hockey in the sunbelt region won, as I can't imagine them thinking it could've gone better. Since 1999, sunbelt teams have won 8 cups (soon to be 9) among 5 teams (possibly 6 if the Panthers and Knights 2-0 series leads hold). Currently, you have the final 4 all comprised of sunbelt teams, and a different sunbelt team just made 3 straight finals and won B2B cups. Arizona not working out won't put much of a damper at all on it. Heck, if anything Atlanta would've been a bigger letdown since it's a bigger market than Phoenix.

So after all this success in this 3 decade experiment, I just don't get why in the world he feels the need to cling to one of the few cases where this experiment has been a failure. All he does is add fuel to the fire for Canadians who believe he favors the sunbelt teams. Real bad look too when he didn't go out of his way to save any of the previous relocated teams like this, and has allowed it to reach parody levels with this 5,000 seat arena.
 

Shwan

Registered User
Jan 30, 2019
363
725
Orange Country Adjacent
You're local, right? I'll take that on your authority (can't find any shred of menton of such PAC's existence on a cursory search, though some I am sure do that by design). I'm interested in where you're getting that and what the expenditures would have been on—mail, TV, robo-calls, mobilization?
Worker Power spent on a wide array of avenues from Facebook to TV to my personal favorite, Canvassing.

They also got their money from UA Local 469 Plumbers in Phoenix lol.

IMG_20230522_182118_adobe_express.jpeg
 

Lazlo Hollyfeld

The jersey ad still sucks
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The be fair…. Meruelo had endorsements from local unions.

Work Force PAC was the group behind the No campaign. They’re a national group based in Los Angeles and lobby for unions all across the US. They did the heavy lifting making a series of standalone transactions.

This was done all outside the Tempe1st group.

In this case Work Force was representing unions in California who wanted in on the construction of TED shutting out the locals. Meruelo wanted Arizona workers on the project.
Source?
 
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Lazlo Hollyfeld

The jersey ad still sucks
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Mar 4, 2004
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Your opinion which you’re entitled too.
I’m entitled to think you didn’t provide a source that in any way backed up your claims.

If you have actual valid sources that support your story I’d be interested in seeing them.

I have a relative in Tempe who is a hockey fan and actually wanted the propositions to pass. His perspective on why it failed pretty much tracks with what coverage had been.

But once the propositions looked like they weren’t going to pass then a whisper campaign about unions started.

The largest factors seemed to be a community suspicious of a developer with a bad reputation in an area that largely doesn’t care about a pro hockey team. They had concerns about the impact on water resources, housing prices, community impact.

But now this narrative emerges about California unions.
 
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TheLegend

"Just say it 3 times..."
Aug 30, 2009
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I’m entitled to think you didn’t provide a source that in any way backed up your claims.

If you have actual valid sources that support your story I’d be interested in seeing them.

I have a relative in Tempe who is a hockey fan and actually wanted the oppositions to pass. His perspective on why it failed pretty much tracks with what coverage had been.

But once the propositions looked like they weren’t going to pass then a whisper campaign about unions started.

The largest factors seemed to be a community suspicious of a developer with a bad reputation in an area that largely doesn’t care about a pro hockey team.

But now this narrative emerges about California unions.
The person I replied to mentioned about looking to where the financing was and I gave him a path to find it.

The unions being involved was brought up well before the Election Day. I don’t expect you to know that and I’m not going to waste the time explaining it to you. But on election night TempeWins was expecting to see it pass. Their final internal polling show the margin would be about the same as it ended up failing.

Now if you want to say “well then they got bad political advice, and their pollsters sucked.” then I’m in total agreement.
 
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Lazlo Hollyfeld

The jersey ad still sucks
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The person I replied to mentioned about looking to where the financing was and I gave him a path to find it.

The unions being involved was brought up well before the Election Day. I don’t expect you to know that and I’m not going to waste the time explaining it to you. But on election night TempeWins was expecting to see it pass. Their final internal polling show the margin would be about the same as it ended up failing.

Now if you want to say “well then they got bad political advice, and their pollsters sucked.” then I’m in total agreement.
No need to explain it to me. As I said I have a family member in Tempe who was following it closely. The union angle being a factor in why the three propositions failed is frankly bullshit cover for a billionaire getting soundly rejected by the community.

He almost got the Coyotes locked out in Glendale for failing to pay his bills. Just how bad of a reputation he had as an investor/developer seems to be getting overlooked. But blaming it on the "california unions" will play well in the greater Phoenix area as an excuse for its failure.
 

eojsmada

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Oct 23, 2022
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No need to explain it to me. As I said I have a family member in Tempe who was following it closely. The union angle being a factor in why the three propositions failed is frankly bullshit cover for a billionaire getting soundly rejected by the community.

He almost got the Coyotes locked out in Glendale for failing to pay his bills. Just how bad of a reputation he had as an investor/developer seems to be getting overlooked.
Agreed. As someone who lived in Tempe for a number of years, there was no appetite to see the city have to pay for any of the deal. It was pretty much dead in the water as soon as Meruelo intimated that he was paying for everything, but neglected to include that the waste removal and infrastructure bill was going to be footed by the taxpayers at 200M+ (super low conservative estimate). Makes no difference if there was going to be a 30-year plan to re-pay the City for it. The guy had already shown his colors to Glendale and people were nervous that there was going to be significantly more to be payed by the City by the end of the negotiations, much less the cost overruns that always occur.
 

Lazlo Hollyfeld

The jersey ad still sucks
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Mar 4, 2004
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Agreed. As someone who lived in Tempe for a number of years, there was no appetite to see the city have to pay for any of the deal. It was pretty much dead in the water as soon as Meruelo intimated that he was paying for everything, but neglected to include that the waste removal and infrastructure bill was going to be footed by the taxpayers at 200M+ (super low conservative estimate). Makes no difference if there was going to be a 30-year plan to re-pay the City for it. The guy had already shown his colors to Glendale and people were nervous that there was going to be significantly more to be payed by the City by the end of the negotiations, much less the cost overruns that always occur.
Thank you for actual facts!

Blaming “California unions” is so reductive and stupid. Maybe it’s just that the citizens didn’t want the arena?
 
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eojsmada

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Oct 23, 2022
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Thank you!

Blaming “California unions” is so reductive and stupid. Maybe it’s just that the citizens didn’t want the arena?
Can't blame them for thinking that way. Coming out of covid...in a down economy/housing...people just want to not have to pay for things they shouldn't have to.
 
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Shwan

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The largest factors seemed to be a community suspicious of a developer with a bad reputation in an area that largely doesn’t care about a pro hockey team. They had concerns about the impact on water resources, housing prices, community impact.

But now this narrative emerges about California unions.
Don't worry, you're right.

If you checked the link, you'd see there's no "Work Force" independent expenditure listing on it. Only "Worker Power", which was funded by an Arizona Union.

IMG_20230522_182118_adobe_express.jpeg


This is supported by an Phoenix Business Journal article written on the day of the debate:

Another entity, Worker Power, which received a $250,000 donation from Arizona Pipe Trades 469, a local pipefitters union, spent $100,000 on TV ads opposing the development during Q1.

Furthermore, Worker Power was also trying to get South Pier on the same ballot as the TED vote. South Pier is another $1.8B Luxury Retail/Office/Condo district 2.5 miles away from the proposed arena site.

Now the funny irony here is if Meruelo didn't agree to immediately take it to vote, Worker Power would have probably also fudged the signatures here too and he'd have his arena via supreme court ruling.

At issue is the eight-year tax break the City of Tempe agreed to give the developer. Worker Power, a group affiliated with UNITE HERE, a hospitality worker's union, believes a public vote should have decided the tax break.
The group collected signatures to put it on the ballot but was told it had used the wrong form in collecting them. Tempe denied the petition and the case went to court.
Worker Power lost the first round but won the appeal. Tempe is now appealing to the Arizona Court of Appeals.

Why would California Union lobbyist group also be trying to get involved with another Tempe development that's already under construction?

That doesn't make sense.

Now, let's say I'm wrong and blind and this "Work Force" group does exist and there actually is a nefarious plot by out of state unions, it doesn't negate that what I just typed above is also true and an Arizona Plumbing Union donated a quarter of a million dollars to stop this.

So that would mean either:

Meruelo pissed off unions from two states, which again goes back to OH communications straight up fleecing Meruelo on this and he should get his money back. (lol)

The majority of the Coyotes' expenses were political consulting and advertising. The Coyotes paid OH Strategic Communications $102,396.35 between January and March.

Or there's some interstate plumbing workers union conspiracy in which an Arizona union donated a quarter-million to actually support California unions.

Or that the truth was that Arizona unions were the ones afraid of getting boxed out of the job, not California ones.
 

Edenjung

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Jun 7, 2018
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Because that's where the stars play right now.

Make no mistake, if MLS was generating revenues to allow them to outbid Euroepan leagues, the players would go where the money is and say screw Champions League, FA Cup, any national league titles.
The Thing is, then they would already Go to the saudis or anywhere in that Region.
But Ronaldo and Messi and Other Players Go there after their Prime. Because First and foremost, they wanna win the Cups and make good Money. And in the Twilight years of their career, when they have won everything they wanna make the Most Money they can.

Then again, tose Guys got paid really Well. Like 51 Million Euros a year for Haarland in man City.
He doesn't have to Go anywhere.
Mbappe gets 72 Million per year.
And in the end they wanna win the CL. Because its the Most prestigious Event in all of Football.
And they wanna Go to Clubs that have History.
 
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ottawah

Registered User
Jan 7, 2011
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The Ottawa bid has proven there's plenty potential owners along the st lawerence sea way.

He'd be a minority owner(he doesn't have all the money anyway).
I doubt given his history he would even be approved for a minority owner.

But in any case the issue is he controls the arena and all its revenue. Does a team work in QC if the owner gets no arena revenue (parking, concessions, etc) and has to pay rent on top of that? Its a tough sell at the best of times because of the number of potential issues, but thats just another tossed on the pile.

A lot of the interest in the Ottawa bid comes from people looking at the development potential, but that does not exist with QC, and in fact is quite the opposite.
 

WATTAGE4451

Registered User
Jan 4, 2018
2,000
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The sad truth is that the Coyotes have been a bad team for several years now and with no prospect of being good any time soon. Why would voters vote to spend money for a stadium for a team that isn't good in a sport that none of them care about? It might have been a good hockey strategy for the Coyotes to embrace the tank in advance in this issue being resolved but it was a really bad business decision.
And for a rich owner who can't even pay his taxes and rent.

Fertitta would probably pay $1B for them and he already has a stadium in Houston, but certainly the Yotes are worth well north of $500M on even a bad day.

Which goes to my original point that the Yotes owner should have been willing to drop a few million on advertising, but didn't for whatever reason ... most likely internal polling told him that it was a dead deal for voters no matter how much money he spent.
The yotes ownership doesn't even pay their rent and taxes and trades for longterm injured reserve contracts they can collect insurance on to reach the cap floor. And you think they are actually gonna spend?

The owners are more of a problem than the market of Arizona honestly.
 
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Rich Nixon

No Prior Knowledge of "Flyers"
Jul 11, 2006
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The person I replied to mentioned about looking to where the financing was and I gave him a path to find it.

The unions being involved was brought up well before the Election Day. I don’t expect you to know that and I’m not going to waste the time explaining it to you. But on election night TempeWins was expecting to see it pass. Their final internal polling show the margin would be about the same as it ended up failing.

Now if you want to say “well then they got bad political advice, and their pollsters sucked.” then I’m in total agreement.

I like information and I am fine being wrong, so I was glad to see you provided me with a link. But before responding, I took the time to go through all the relevant documents at the Tempe campaign financing link you provided (ex-reporter brain) and didn't find anything close to "Work Force PAC" or millions of dollars.

The local Arizona Pipe Trades 469 funded $250k in expenditures through an LA-based Super PAC (basically just a mailing address) called Worker Power, which funneled that money primarily into digital marketing ad spend. That transfer happened on 4/13/2023. Is the assumption that more transfers happened prior but aren't documented anywhere?

The IE forms are for each little individual expenditure coming out of that $250,000 sum. Some are substantial, but most are little shit. Facebook/Meta Ads (like Google Ads) charge at intervals, so every $250 your account spends results in a unique credit card charge. Looks like a Facebook campaign with a daily budget between $500 and $1000. That generates a lot of big documents full of small transactions, but it's still a single $250,000 pool it pulled from.

That said, the money in those IE forms cumulatively exceeds $250k: There's $100k to one marketing firm, $25k to another, $125k late to "Radar Strategies." That's $250k alone right there, before you add in about $40k in total payments to canvassers, $10-15k total in printing (shirts and signs and direct mail I assume), and somewhere in the $10k range for Facebook ads (oh and they went to Costco a couple times). I didn't get the abacus out, but my skimming estimation of all 15 filed IE docs has it at around ~$320,000 in reported expenditures off $250,000 in funding, which is a bit vexing—but we're still a couple million short of a couple million here.

Meanwhile, documents at the link provided discredit Seravalli's reporting, which I'll resurface here:

Frank Seravalli said:
However, NHL sources indicated there has been a significant disparity in spending by Political Action Committees tied to both sides. The belief is the Coyotes side has spent less than $250,000 to activate the vote, opting for a bootstrap campaign, while the opposition has spent upwards of $2 million, backed by high-power labor unions who have not received a guarantee that they will be the ones building the project.

Oh, that's "the belief"? Because based on the documents at the linked local government portal: The "no" PAC had a whopping $34k. The pipefitters union's reported spend was $250k or $300k or whatever it was. And Meruelo's companies funded his "yes" PAC with over $1,000,000, of which at least $785,000 was disbursed. So if they "believed" they'd spent a third of the money that they did, they should have looked it up in the forms they filed. Now, if only $250k of that was direct campaign expenditure, hard to get all "woe is them" for wasting a lot of money and then blaming nebulous, undocumented "Cali union money."

Am I misreading something?
 
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ichbinkanadier

Registered User
Apr 22, 2023
847
483
The Thing is, then they would already Go to the saudis or anywhere in that Region.
But Ronaldo and Messi and Other Players Go there after their Prime. Because First and foremost, they wanna win the Cups and make good Money. And in the Twilight years of their career, when they have won everything they wanna make the Most Money they can.

Then again, tose Guys got paid really Well. Like 51 Million Euros a year for Haarland in man City.
He doesn't have to Go anywhere.
Mbappe gets 72 Million per year.
And in the end they wanna win the CL. Because its the Most prestigious Event in all of Football.
And they wanna Go to Clubs that have History.
There's a difference between Saudi Arabia and the USA.

And as I stated, if they generate enough revenues to outbid them. I'm not saying they ever will, but history means Squat when it comes to money and you don't have to move to hell to make it.
 

Raymondo316

Registered User
Nov 11, 2007
1,065
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Maidstone England
Because that's where the stars play right now.

Make no mistake, if MLS was generating revenues to allow them to outbid Euroepan leagues, the players would go where the money is and say screw Champions League, FA Cup, any national league titles.
China at one point was offering silly money to try and attract the best players to go and play over there. Why a few decent players were happy to move to China to earn mega money, none of the actual real star talent were interested.

The whole experiment ended in disaster, with most of the players hating it and wanting to leave.
 

Lady Stanley

Registered User
May 26, 2021
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China at one point was offering silly money to try and attract the best players to go and play over there. Why a few decent players were happy to move to China to earn mega money, none of the actual real star talent were interested.

The whole experiment ended in disaster, with most of the players hating it and wanting to leave.
Today I learned turning down a job in China means you don't want one in Miami.

I never realized that's how non Americans saw the world. Silly me thought a player in Dinglehaven Flixenberg would love a shot at Miami-New York. Never realized the prestige of playing in a minor Europe city has.

The Beauty of MLS is that it's a balanced league. You have a cap etc. It means it'll have a distinct advantage over the 20+ European leagues.

The MLS has minor league talent with major league success.
 

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