Coyotes Tempe arena project rejected by public referendum - will remain at Mullett Arena for 2023-24

[Hockeyholic]

Does Montreal have a say on a potential QC team?

 

[ichbinkanadier]

It's called institutional power. The federal reserve sets interest rates, they don't need control over the federal budget to have immense influence and power.

The same thing applies with the league. NHL owners aren't a pluralistic democracy where owners spend 40 hours a week in a room debating about what to do next.

It's far more one on one conversations/ factions of team owners pushing agendas etc.

Gary being in the middle of it all, has the ability to make and break agendas/motivations.

The first thing Gary pushed was set Arena sizes, directly making it so smaller markets can't compete. He sold the owners on being ahead of the NBA and did not deliver. With that he also help steer the league towards territorial rights, stricter expansion criteria, salary caps, He chased the American contract at all costs instead of building growing hockey value in the Midwest. etc all things that steered the league away from Canadian markets.

You don't have to create a mandate of "we hate Canadian teams" to create a perfect storm of conditions where Canadian teams are held back.

I understand all that. Nonetheless, there's still a board of governors that Bettman needs to persuade to see his vision I'd it is on fact his ideas going through. It's not as if he can unilaterally implement his ideas. So, the issue is with the entire Board of Governors who agree with his vision and push it forward (or maybe they keep him around because he agrees with their preexisting ideas)?

Hate Bettman all one wants, but he's one man. If ya wanna fight thr power, there's 32 governors to rage against.

And what business keeps itself smaller for the sake of small markets having access to the business? Canada is a small population compared to the U.S., it sucks but that's the way it is. The CFL can barely go beyond 9 markets. After Quebec, the markets are so small that they can't even host a mom and pop (relatively speaking) business like the CFL.

 

[ichbinkanadier]

That's exactly how it works. Fans in Houston are far far morelikely to be fans of multiple sports/franchises, your entertainment dollars are split amongst franchises.

Market saturation per the entertainment dollar is a consideration but only as a comparison between or amongst alternative markets for your franchise.

Someone may think Houston isn't viable because it has too much going on so Quebec it is. Others may think Houston is the better option because it has a huge population to market and tap into and think the Texans only play 9 times a season, the Astros are primarily in the NHL off-sesson, leaving the Rockets as the only direct competitor and then take a gander at similar markets to see if that could be a problem for ticket sales and overall interest.

I get a lot of Americans on this board are hockey only folks, in part because its their identity living in a market where everything else is so popular but that isn't the norm. You're trying to pull fans from other sports, and it's why you'll always have an uphill battle when you have Big 3 + college teams already firmly established in the market.

People are capable of and often are fans of more than one team at a time. Also, as noted above, the only direct overlap is the NBA. To make money, yes you need to develop the core fanbse, but more importantly you need the casual fan's entertainment dollars. So the question comes down to is the QC core fan base large enough that it will produce more revenues than a total fan base in a city with six times the population, a much larger corporate base but also several other sports entertainment options?

And it's not just making someone a fan, you need to be a fan that prioritize your merch purchases etc on the team.

As I said Dallas got in at the right time. When sports weren't so money intensive and the NBA wasn't such a big fish.

10% of a market equates to like 600,000 people. And you can just look up team revenues and see the lack of a gap between a market like Calgary and a market like Dallas.

You need 30 years to capture the equivalent of 600,000 fans. 30 years to be on par with QC.

Branding. Television. If you want to be a "major" league you need the major cities. Is a league that doesn't have teams in two of the top 10 markets a legitimate major league? Some may say yes, perhaps Bettman and the BOG say no and so chase Houston and Atlanta over QC.

The southern expansion was entirely based on a Hockey being bigger than basketball. Gary came from Basketball and he thought it was doable and sold that pipe dream to the owners.

30 years later hockey is still primarily a north east-mid west thing.

Is 30 years long enough? And in which American markets is the NHL number one in the hearts of its residents? Number 2? Number 3? When did the Red Wings Bruins, Flyers, etc become top revenue generating markets? Did fans in 1966 argue that the NHL should expand to QC, Ottawa, Edmonton etc instead of Philadelphia or Pittsburgh because those markets already has other sports and the Canadian cities had preexisting, passionate fan bases?

Your "potential" is dependent on hockey being as popular as Basketball in non traditional markets. For that to happen hockey has to take off nationality, if that needs to happen first why not wait until that happens and then expand?

No, it's not. The potential is in creating a fan base plus reaching out to the casual sports fans. Have you noticed teams- especially in baseball- are building social areas in the stadiums? It's becausenthey realize there's a market for casual fans who enjoy attending games, but enjoy it as a social outing while watching the game. These are the casual fans to whom I am referring.

Just google flames revenue compared to dallas, factor in that the dollar is slight below the ideal 75 cents versus 82ish cents. Add to that the price of tar sands oil is relatively low.

A few dollar rise in oil prices and Calgary revenues would go up if they had the on ice product offered by the stars.


I'm illustrating that Calgary is perfectly large for a team, it's not a small market. It's the ideal market as you have a monopoly on entertainment, you never have to worry about an NBA team sneaking into the market and chocking your revenue, heck not even the MLS is a threat.

I never brought up Calgary. I was talking about QC, a market half the size of Calgary. Calgary, and Edmonton - and maybe Ottawa- make sense since they are 4th to 6th in metropolitan population and continue growing. They currently are around 1.5 million, which allows them to easily compete with American markets of 2 million or so (maybe even 3 million, hard to say for sure)

Transplants alone are not a problem, Calgary has "attitude" //collective identity in spades. It has working class/upper middle class etc all existing as a unified city. The problem with Ottawa for simple identity has to do with a lack of unifying force. If you don't like government you're not all jazzed up about parliament. If you don't speak french Gatineau feels like a whole other city. There's not a ton of working class industry in Ottawa. A lot of the locals identify with the general area(rural cottages etc) then they do the city proper. And because of this a whole not of noobies don't care to integrate as there's nothing to get behind.

I am from Ottawa and I have no idea where you get these notions from. Talk to Senators fans and there's a good chance they weren't born nor raised in Ottawa but moved here as adults but they adopted the local team.

It's only a matter of time before Gatineau is overtaken by anglophones much like Orleans, Rockland, Cumberland, etc were, and even still, Gatineau doesn't feel like some foreign land. Many if not most that live there work in Ottawa; the cities are intertwined (many francophone there don't even necessarily identify as Quebecois in any ethnic identity sense since Montreal and QC may as well be in an altogether different province- much like how Ottawans feel about Toronto)

 

[Lady Stanley]

Someone may think Houston isn't viable because it has too much going on so Quebec it is. Others may think Houston is the better option because it has a huge population to market and tap into and think the Texans only play 9 times a season,

As if an NFL fan is skipping away games? As if NFL games aren't watching marquee matchups with Green-KC etc. Not to mention the college football.

This "9 games a year" bit is a joke. For most even casual fans it's 40-50 games a year.

Branding. Television. If you want to be a "major" league you need the major cities. Is a league that doesn't have teams in two of the top 10 markets a legitimate major league? Some may say yes, perhaps Bettman and the BOG say no and so chase Houston and Atlanta over QC.

This is where we can just bring the conversation to a halt.

You think QC isn't a major city in the province of Quebec? Rome is more important to Europeans than the Cologne-Rhein metro despite having triple the population. The same thing applies to QC. It's reach is far beyond raw population numbers. It's the heart of historic-french Canada.

Like I personally don't know a single person who thinks Detroit is a more impressive city than QC.

Believe it or not a ton of Canadians really don't care to know the difference between Houston-Atlanta-Baton Rouge-Des Moine. If you're from Algeria and speak only french America is a whole other distinct country.

Is 30 years long enough? And in which American markets is the NHL number one in the hearts of its residents? Number 2? Number 3? When did the Red Wings Bruins, Flyers, etc become top revenue generating markets? Did fans in 1966 argue that the NHL should expand to QC, Ottawa, Edmonton etc instead of Philadelphia or Pittsburgh because those markets already has other sports and the Canadian cities had preexisting, passionate fan bases?

Things were wide open back then, radically unlike now, where the MLS is screaching into any possible market they can.

No, it's not. The potential is in creating a fan base plus reaching out to the casual sports fans. Have you noticed teams- especially in baseball- are building social areas in the stadiums? It's becausenthey realize there's a market for casual fans who enjoy attending games, but enjoy it as a social outing while watching the game. These are the casual fans to whom I am referring.

Not sure what your point is? You don't think people going to an Ice Hotel in QC are gonna pass up a nordiques game?

I am from Ottawa and I have no idea where you get these notions from. Talk to Senators fans and there's a good chance they weren't born nor raised in Ottawa but moved here as adults but they adopted the local team.

You get my father literally grew up in Sherbrooke-Ottawa? My cousins live in Hawkesbury half the sisters drive to Ottawa the other half drive to Montreal. You're describing Sens fans who've by your definition overcome the barrier.

It's only a matter of time before Gatineau is overtaken by anglophones much like Orleans, Rockland, Cumberland, etc were, and even still, Gatineau doesn't feel like some foreign land.

I never said a foreign land, but another city. Similar to Manhattan versus Jersey. It's not that it's forbidden, but one side follows the QMJHL team the other follows the OHL team.

Many if not most that live there work in Ottawa; the cities are intertwined (many francophone there don't even necessarily identify as Quebecois in any ethnic identity sense since Montreal and QC may as well be in an altogether different province- much like how Ottawans feel about Toronto)

You're describing exactly and I mean exactly what I mean. People "feel" very differently about what Ottawa is and is not.

I have side by side comaprisons of friends going to Ottawa versus all the other majors cities.

When someone "comes back" from Calgary you can bet your behind sales tax/whatever will come up. When someone "comes back" from Ottawa, you can spin the wheel for what that means to them. One of my cousins struggles to speak english, her sister can barely speak french and lives in malls/box stores. My father on the other hand doesn't like the city at all and what he misses about Ottawa was being so close to outside of Ottawa/cottage/lakes/greenery. I have friend who's been there for a decade and she still feels like she just arrived.

 

[Lady Stanley]

I understand all that. Nonetheless, there's still a board of governors that Bettman needs to persuade to see his vision I'd it is on fact his ideas going through. It's not as if he can unilaterally implement his ideas. So, the issue is with the entire Board of Governors who agree with his vision and push it forward (or maybe they keep him around because he agrees with their preexisting ideas)?

A) Canadian teams want the Canadian division back if it guarantees the winner 3rd round hockey. There's zero teams who'd do anything less than put all of their might behind that. Regardless if it's taxes/weather or just bad mangement, Canadian teams know they'll always have trouble competing with Americans.

B) Americans want this issue taken care of and they want it done now.

C) American owners aren't gonna be overjoyed to move a team on a rebuild, it doesn't grow the game in their area of the country if a team is losing.

D) ESPN wants 3 American divisions, it's better for marketing playoff hockey. There's also good reason Americans respond when it's a Vegas versus LA matchup than Vegas-Winnipeg, LA-Oilers

E) At the end of the day any solid American market is delayed from getting a team, and will likely pay more next time around. Especially and I mean especially if a canadian division results in a fatter national contract.

EDIT: F) The owners obviously want to keep the NBA out of Montreal. QC won't do direct arm to montreal, but it decreases the odds that Montreal is as appealing.

And what business keeps itself smaller for the sake of small markets having access to the business?

That's just absurdly false. Most businesses are interested in smaller markets they can monopolize than large markets where every inch has to be fought for and you're always one shift in fandom away from losing 30-40% of your income. It's why walmart makes billions operating springfield Texas and posh big fashion brands in Paris aren't even listed by Forbes.

Canada is a small population compared to the U.S., it sucks but that's the way it is.

And yet they represent a disproportionate amount of the revenue/fandom despite having few teams.

The CFL can barely go beyond 9 markets.

You get the vast majority of Canadians don't watch and are barely aware it exists? If Canada was passionate about football you'd have a 32 team league. Regina is basically the only place it's popular and they have 265,000 people.

After Quebec, the markets are so small that they can't even host a mom and pop (relatively speaking) business like the CFL.

KWC has 600,000 people a much much stronger economy, and is surrounded by similarly sized cities. Canada could support 12-16 teams. Some of them shaky sure, but it isn't that Canada is up against a population wall.

The CFL has zero relevance in Eastern Canada, the few local kids who play football don't even play 3 down Canadian football but instead play the American variant.

Just go around Toronto and ask them if Hamilton or QC has a CFL team. Watch them scratch their heads. It's not because Toronto is too good for football, nobody in the province really follows the CFL. It's a prairie thing.

 

[tomd]

The sad truth is that the Coyotes have been a bad team for several years now and with no prospect of being good any time soon. Why would voters vote to spend money for a stadium for a team that isn't good in a sport that none of them care about? It might have been a good hockey strategy for the Coyotes to embrace the tank in advance in this issue being resolved but it was a really bad business decision.

 

[tomd]

Ah yes, the "high powered labor unions." The boogeyman of billionaires. I guess they couldn't pin it to illegal immigration?

People are focusing on money spent to lobby on this, but maybe they should have done better with some actual community outreach as well? Try and involve the neighborhoods and communities affected by the new stadium.

The frustrating thing about HF is that you can make a post like this but if I reply with the truth then I'll be the one who gets the infraction.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

The frustrating thing about HF is that you can make a post like this but if I reply with the truth then I'll be the one who gets the infraction.

sure, sure the "truth."

I was replying to an actual tweet trying to pin the failure of the stadium on "high-powered labor unions" where when you look into what went down in Tempe, it was mostly about public sentiment having shifted against billionaires getting a city to build a stadium for them in the promise of all it will do for the citizens. This one was largely going to be privately funded but still got a massive tax break for 30 years, was going to have to pay for hazardous waste cleanup and another $200 million for infrastructure. And the face of this stadium deal doesn't exactly have a good reputation in the area.

A family member who lives in Tempe echoed a lot of what I read on the issue. The prevailing mood seems to be against any sort of giveaways for a sport that you correctly state the local citizens care very little about. Bettman's threat to move the team doesn't scare anyone but the owners. But when the people actually vote down a billionaire, it's not the democratic process at work, it's the "evil unions from California."

 

[tomd]

sure, sure the "truth."

I was replying to an actual tweet trying to pin the failure of the stadium on "high-powered labor unions" where when you look into what went down in Tempe, it was mostly about public sentiment having shifted against billionaires getting a city to build a stadium for them in the promise of all it will do for the citizens. This one was largely going to be privately funded but still got a massive tax break for 30 years, was going to have to pay for hazardous waste cleanup and another $200 million for infrastructure. And the face of this stadium deal doesn't exactly have a good reputation in the area.

A family member who lives in Tempe echoed a lot of what I read on the issue. The prevailing mood seems to be against any sort of giveaways for a sport that you correctly state the local citizens care very little about. Bettman's threat to move the team doesn't scare anyone but the owners. But when the people actually vote down a billionaire, it's not the democratic process at work, it's the "evil unions from California."

I'll just leave it like I said in my earlier post. Most voters could care less about hockey, especially for a team that has been a cellar-dweller. As such, I think they made a rational choice for themselves. I think the money spent probably didn't matter either way.

 

[Lady Stanley]

I'll just leave it like I said in my earlier post. Most voters could care less about hockey, especially for a team that has been a cellar-dweller. As such, I think they made a rational choice for themselves. I think the money spent probably didn't matter either way.

The failure of American hockey is pretty dam simple.

Bill Burr was playing beer league hockey in his 40s.

You listen to his podcast and hockey barely comes up. You really have to dig to find occasional references to the Bruins. Guy is basically the most high profile guy I can think of who also likes Hockey and even he doesn't represent the game.

MLS is literally bigger in a whole lot of markets and that's while being committed to having rosters of ahl equivalents. What happens when MLS starts signing all of the biggest names in the world? How on earth to people fantasize about hockey being in the picture.

Even in Canada you meet a massive number of people who are soccer first.

 

[TheLegend]

Ah yes, the "high powered labor unions." The boogeyman of billionaires. I guess they couldn't pin it to illegal immigration?

People are focusing on money spent to lobby on this, but maybe they should have done better with some actual community outreach as well? Try and involve the neighborhoods and communities affected by the new stadium.

They did. They just pushed the wrong message and pushed it too late.

The analogy I used in another post was they tried selling a Bugatti Veyron to a public that drives Buicks.

Tempe is not a real affluent city. But the pitch was “best in class”, “Rodeo Drive”…. “high-end”… Etc…. etc…

So the people simply looked at that and decided that an ultra-high end project like this wasn’t something they would ever go to and it could cost them if something bad happened.

 

[Kimota]

If the Nordiques made so much money why did they leave? Who abandons a cash cow?

It's more like they could become a cash cow. Easily. Quebec is more wealthy now. They have a rich owner waiting in the wings with his own channel and a NHL arena. I was at my grand-mother birthday a few days ago. Big family. People were talking about the Coyotes. A lot of them were saying they would buy season tickets if the Nords returned. I'm telling you, it would be mad.

And they left cause Aubut didn't want to share the pie. He was told by the PM, he wouldn't be the man and in charge of the Nords. And then he turned around and was offered beautiful US dollars. He sold the people out.

 

[MessierII]

Branding. Television. If you want to be a "major" league you need the major cities. Is a league that doesn't have teams in two of the top 10 markets a legitimate major league? Some may say yes, perhaps Bettman and the BOG say no and so chase Houston and Atlanta over QC.

The NFL had no team in LA for how long but had a team in Green Bay. You go to where it’s stable and profitable period. The prospects of a better Tv deal was the excuse for years. Well the TV deal happens and it still sucks.

 

[Garrison]

Every small business owner + relatives prob voted against it. Imagine you own a small restaurant that does well and someone tells you there will be a huge entertainment district that takes your business away....

 

[ottawah]

It's more like they could become a cash cow. Easily. Quebec is more wealthy now. They have a rich owner waiting in the wings with his own channel and a NHL arena.

An owner the NHL would not accept at all, thats one of the huge hurtles for QC. Paladeau made his bed, now he has to sleep in it.

 

[Edenjung]

MLS is literally bigger in a whole lot of markets and that's while being committed to having rosters of ahl equivalents. What happens when MLS starts signing all of the biggest names in the world? How on earth to people fantasize about hockey being in the picture.

Even in Canada you meet a massive number of people who are soccer first.

As an european in can Tell you that that won't Happen. Like ever.
Atleast Not when they are in their Prime.
And afterwards they Go where the Money is best.

But beforehand they want to compete in the best leagues in the world and compete for in the best competitions.

 

[ichbinkanadier]

The NFL had no team in LA for how long but had a team in Green Bay. You go to where it’s stable and profitable period. The prospects of a better Tv deal was the excuse for years. Well the TV deal happens and it still sucks.

Lol

As soon as I posted that I knew someone was going to be bring up LA and the NFL.

Altogether different circumstances. The NFL is already THE major brand. It wanted to be in LA, but it wanted a favorable stadium deal. It was essentially taking its ball and going home until LA capitulated. If the NFL lost LA, NYC, Houston all at once you can bet on them being the ones to capitulate to get back into these markets.



And Green Bay is another exception- a small market that developed into a major brand. It is the only such team that exists in North America. But make no mistake, if it folded, it wouldn't affect the NFL's ability to remain a major brand.

And expansion by definition is lack of stability. You're growing, taking risks.
And how do you know QC would be profitable? I heard claims before even covid by the Jets themselves that they had seasons where they lost money (and QC is the same size)

 

[ichbinkanadier]

It's more like they could become a cash cow. Easily. Quebec is more wealthy now. They have a rich owner waiting in the wings with his own channel and a NHL arena. I was at my grand-mother birthday a few days ago. Big family. People were talking about the Coyotes. A lot of them were saying they would buy season tickets if the Nords returned. I'm telling you, it would be mad.

And they left cause Aubut didn't want to share the pie. He was told by the PM, he wouldn't be the man and in charge of the Nords. And then he turned around and was offered beautiful US dollars. He sold the people out.

The PM? The Prime Minister?

 

[tucker3434]

The NFL had no team in LA for how long but had a team in Green Bay. You go to where it’s stable and profitable period. The prospects of a better Tv deal was the excuse for years. Well the TV deal happens and it still sucks.

The NFL has been in Green Bay for a hundred years. It’s not the same as electing to move a team there today.

 

[Lady Stanley]

As an european in can Tell you that that won't Happen. Like ever.

You'd get more weight if you told me you were from South America. It doesn't happen all at once, it'd be a gradual process.

Atleast Not when they are in their Prime.
And afterwards they Go where the Money is best.

But beforehand they want to compete in the best leagues in the world and compete for in the best competitions.

"best leagues"

10 seconds after players realize America has a balanced league where every game is more or less evenly matched that'll dissolve. You'd have a point if there was a European super league. There's nothing fun about smashing a relegation team for a guy not from the country, it's a waste of their time and talent.

The whole "European Prestige" is a mirage. Reality is a kid from Brazil will be way more interested in living in Miami, than they will in Bremen.

 

[Lady Stanley]

An owner the NHL would not accept at all, thats one of the huge hurtles for QC. Paladeau made his bed, now he has to sleep in it.

The Ottawa bid has proven there's plenty potential owners along the st lawerence sea way.

He'd be a minority owner(he doesn't have all the money anyway).

 

[ichbinkanadier]

As if an NFL fan is skipping away games? As if NFL games aren't watching marquee matchups with Green-KC etc. Not to mention the college football.

This "9 games a year" bit is a joke. For most even casual fans it's 40-50 games a year.

They play more or less one day a week. If your argument held water the NBA would be seeing a huge hit to their attendance and ratings overall as well.

This is where we can just bring the conversation to a halt.

You think QC isn't a major city in the province of Quebec? Rome is more important to Europeans than the Cologne-Rhein metro despite having triple the population. The same thing applies to QC. It's reach is far beyond raw population numbers. It's the heart of historic-french Canada.

Like I personally don't know a single person who thinks Detroit is a more impressive city than QC.

Believe it or not a ton of Canadians really don't care to know the difference between Houston-Atlanta-Baton Rouge-Des Moine. If you're from Algeria and speak only french America is a whole other distinct country.

There is a difference between cultural significance and market size as it relates to economic matters. The two should not be conflated.

Not sure what your point is? You don't think people going to an Ice Hotel in QC are gonna pass up a nordiques game?

The point is sports leagues aren't sports leagues alone, they're entertainment industries. Both of my sales reps for my season tickets don't ask me about the team, they ask me about the atmosphere of the game, what they could do to make it more entertaining because teams realize catching the casual fans and getting those additional dollars is about entertainment. Hence, the kiss cam, mascot, loud music, games...and now social areas where people can hang out, socialize and maybe take a peak at the game every so often.

You get my father literally grew up in Sherbrooke-Ottawa? My cousins live in Hawkesbury half the sisters drive to Ottawa the other half drive to Montreal. You're describing Sens fans who've by your definition overcome the barrier.


I never said a foreign land, but another city. Similar to Manhattan versus Jersey. It's not that it's forbidden, but one side follows the QMJHL team the other follows the OHL team.

It's not another city. It's no different to going to Wrstboro, Orleans, Silver City. Just another neighborhood in the city.

 

[Shwan]

People are focusing on money spent to lobby on this, but maybe they should have done better with some actual community outreach as well? Try and involve the neighborhoods and communities affected by the new stadium.

The no side was feeling pretty good when this was the outreach.



Easy for Tempe 1st to spin that as a bunch of very rich people coming out to tell these hard working North Tempe citizens that it'll totally benefit them to give a billionaire a 30 year property tax break for building an entertainment district that will raise their property taxes.

Was almost as good of effect as just showing residents videos of all the people who made public remarks at the June hearing.

Someone is really going to have to write a book about how poorly the Tempe Wins campaign was run.

 

[ichbinkanadier]

That's just absurdly false. Most businesses are interested in smaller markets they can monopolize than large markets where every inch has to be fought for and you're always one shift in fandom away from losing 30-40% of your income. It's why walmart makes billions operating springfield Texas and posh big fashion brands in Paris aren't even listed by Forbes.

Sports isn't retail. They intentionally keep the number of franchises low for valuation purposes (and maybe even quality purposes). As such, they have a limited number of options and an opportunity cost when they choose one market over another.

And those businesses that fo into the major markets are also the businesses that grow immensely and become national, I.e. major brands. If the NHL was content to be a niche market, then it'd be in QC, Hamilton, Kitchener, Syracuse, Rochester etc But they want to maximize revenue potential and the way to do that is become a major brand by entering major markets.

You get the vast majority of Canadians don't watch and are barely aware it exists? If Canada was passionate about football you'd have a 32 team league. Regina is basically the only place it's popular and they have 265,000 people.

KWC has 600,000 people a much much stronger economy, and is surrounded by similarly sized cities. Canada could support 12-16 teams. Some of them shaky sure, but it isn't that Canada is up against a population wall.

The CFL has zero relevance in Eastern Canada, the few local kids who play football don't even play 3 down Canadian football but instead play the American variant.

Just go around Toronto and ask them if Hamilton or QC has a CFL team. Watch them scratch their heads. It's not because Toronto is too good for football, nobody in the province really follows the CFL. It's a prairie thing.

Name me the potential 16 markets for hockey.

 

[ujju2]

Jesus Christ, man. Hate to see anyone losing their team like this.

In case anyone needed another reason to question union intentions...