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Coronavirus (COVID-19) Discussion Part X

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stealth1 said:
You aren't spending more then 15 minutes around anyone at those places. Covid is most likely to spread when around an infected person for more then 15 minutes. When you are around people in your home you spend more then 15 minutes around them and not wearing masks. Its not hard to understand.
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More than 15 minutes? Then why isn't covid spreading like wild fire in schools where people are clearly in rooms together more than 15 minutes and kids have one hell of a time following the rules, such as social distancing and masks?

It's nonsense.

And someone with covid crams on a bus, crams in a restaurant, and pushes his way through a shopping mall to dozens of stores. I'm sorry, but if you believe it's a bigger threat to have a coffee on your sisters patio then you're insane.
 
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Throw More Waffles said:
More than 15 minutes? Then why isn't covid spreading like wild fire in schools where people are clearly in rooms together more than 15 minutes and kids have one hell of a time following the rules, such as social distancing and masks?

It's nonsense.

And someone with covid crams on a bus, crams in a restaurant, and pushes his way through a shopping mall to dozens of stores. I'm sorry, but if you believe it's a bigger threat to have a coffee on your sisters patio then you're insane.
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As far as some one with Covid cramming into anywhere, they are most likely wearing a mask. The thing that helps with the spread and the thing you don't wear when you sit on your sisters patio.


Then why is majority of Covid spread at home. There has been spread at schools. Weren't a few closed in Toronto due to outbreaks.
 
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stealth1 said:
As far as some one with Covid cramming into anywhere, they are most likely wearing a mask. The thing that helps with the spread and the thing you don't wear when you sit on your sisters patio.


Then why is majority of Covid spread at home. There has been spread at schools. Weren't a few closed in Toronto due to outbreaks.
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Why was my school argument ignored? The kids there barely follow the mask and social distancing rules, and are clearly together more than 15 minutes...

You have a greatly exaggerated viewpoint on mask effectiveness btw. They help a little. But this whole "as long as everyone is wearing masks, even when crammed together, covid doesn't spread" nonsense is flat out incorrect.

Wuhan, btw, is an east asian pro mask wearing culture. They all masked up in early December. Everybody. So why months later were they crash building hospitals overnight?

Know what worked in Wuhan? Literal house arrest for everybody. For everything. People cramming into malls (lol) wearing masks spread covid at insane levels.
 
Throw More Waffles said:
Why was my school argument ignored? The kids there barely follow the mask and social distancing rules, and are clearly together more than 15 minutes...

You have a greatly exaggerated viewpoint on mask effectiveness btw. They help a little. But this whole "as long as everyone is wearing masks, even when crammed together, covid doesn't spread" nonsense is flat out incorrect.

Wuhan, btw, is an east asian pro mask wearing culture. They all masked up in early December. Everybody. So why months later were they crash building hospitals overnight?

Know what worked in Wuhan? Literal house arrest for everybody. For everything. People cramming into malls (lol) wearing masks spread covid at insane levels.
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I know masks only go so far. You need to limit social interactions as well. Which we as people have failed to do. Cause we have failed to limit social interactions and staying home as much as possible they had to go back to lockdowns. I wouldn't be surprised if this lasts well past January.

I do see your side in that the only way to stop the spread is lockdowns. At the same time the government can't afford to keep paying for everyone to stay home. So they were trying to compromise in having businesses open and hoping people would do the right thing. Instead we all get a failing mark. We have no one to blame for this lockdown but us. Enjoy your winter being cooped up inside all cause people had to people.
 
stealth1 said:
I know masks only go so far. You need to limit social interactions as well. Which we as people have failed to do. Cause we have failed to limit social interactions and staying home as much as possible they had to go back to lockdowns. I wouldn't be surprised if this lasts well past January.

I do see your side in that the only way to stop the spread is lockdowns. At the same time the government can't afford to keep paying for everyone to stay home. So they were trying to compromise in having businesses open and hoping people would do the right thing. Instead we all get a failing mark. We have no one to blame for this lockdown but us. Enjoy your winter being cooped up inside all cause people had to people.
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It's seems we're not too far off, but my argument is half measures don't work. The first reason they don't work is that covid does spread by everyone cramming on busses and shopping malls (even in masks). But the other reason is what we're discussing here. People won't follow the other rules when they see nonsense like shoulder to shoulder crammed busses, as well as schools rammed full of kids barely following the rules. And for good reason. The goal was "flatten the curve" to prevent hospitals from over flooding. Wuhan's approach wasn't about flattening the curve. It was house arrest for a few weeks while covid disappears.

Its a mess though. People in the west wouldn't have tolerated house arrest back in March. And after 9 months of insanity and inconsistency, they most assuredly won't tolerate it now.

So where does that leave us? At a "half measure" compromise that helps corporations more than the common Joe while we wait for the vaccine.
 
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Throw More Waffles said:
It's seems we're not too far off, but my argument is half measures don't work. The first reason they don't work is that covid does spread by everyone cramming on busses and shopping malls (even in masks). But the other reason is what we're discussing here. People won't follow the other rules when they see nonsense like shoulder to shoulder crammed busses, as well as schools rammed full of kids barely following the rules. And for good reason. The goal was "flatten the curve" to prevent hospitals from over flooding. Wuhan's approach wasn't about flattening the curve. It was house arrest for a few weeks while covid disappears.

Its a mess though. People in the west wouldn't have tolerated house arrest back in March. And after 9 months of insanity and inconsistency, they most assuredly won't tolerate it now.

So where does that leave us? At a "half measure" compromise that helps corporations more than the common Joe while we wait for the vaccine.
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Nobody would go for a total lockdown in March or even more now. Look at all the whining and complaining about small businesses being hurt now. We are spoiled here.
 
Confucius said:
Speaking of schools, what are kids doing for lunch? Surely not indoor dining at the school, then again it wouldn't surprise me.
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Thats a good question. My youngest is in high school and they are either home before lunch or arrive after lunch.

Not sure what K-8 kids are doing for lunch
 
Jojalu said:
Thats a good question. My youngest is in high school and they are either home before lunch or arrive after lunch.

Not sure what K-8 kids are doing for lunch
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I would imagine it would similar to what they have setup for us at my work. Its rows of tables with plexiglass at the front of each table. All tables are facing the same way.
 
Seems like a lot of energy is being wasted focusing on the wrong things. Lockdowns vs the let ‘er rip crowd and all parts in between.

Here’s where we stand today, let’s agree on facts.

  • This virus is deadly
  • As long as the virus is present in the population it can and will mutate
  • A current mutation has resulted in it being much more contagious while being equally deadly.
  • That mutation is confirmed to be here in Canada and spreading around the globe
  • The cause of “lockdown” is the virus
  • Some businesses are suffering
  • Even with reduced restrictions bars and restaurants were still suffering.... because there is a pandemic and a majority of customers don’t feel comfortable eating and drinking with strangers
  • Masks work to reduce the transmission
  • Spread is happening everywhere. Including in schools (largely by asymptomatic and untested kids) and then brought home where mask wearing is not happening
  • We have a vaccine
  • It will be months before most of us can get it
Arguing about the above or any nuance of a lockdown is wasted time and energy.

The biggest issue facing Canadians and the world is how we can eradicate this disease like Polio.

This herd immunity threshold is the key. Conservative estimates are that you need 70% of the population to get vaccinated.

But since the vaccine hasn’t been indicated for use in kids under 16, that leaves 7 million Canadians on the sidelines.

We will need 86% of the remaining population to take the vaccine to reach a total threshold of 70%.

And likely do this every year.

Focus on that. If that happens, businesses open. Concerts come back. Tickets get sold to sporting events.
 
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Biggest age group right now in Ontario that we know of for spread is under 24ers. We are doing a lot better over 25s and significantly better at over 65s. Da issue is kids are not getting tested at younger ages. And they are largely asymptomatic. They are passing it around to parents and da cycle continues at home. If schools closed down for a month then da spread would be curtailed. It only came back in September because schools opened up. Nothing else really changed much. Right now we need to extend da 1 week school extended shutdown from January 13th opening planned today to January 27th. Then cases will have dropped again pretty significantly.
 
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Pookie said:
Seems like a lot of energy is being wasted focusing on the wrong things. Lockdowns vs the let ‘er rip crowd and all parts in between.

Here’s where we stand today, let’s agree on facts.

  • This virus is deadly
  • As long as the virus is present in the population it can and will mutate
  • A current mutation has resulted in it being much more contagious while being equally deadly.
  • That mutation is confirmed to be here in Canada and spreading around the globe
  • The cause of “lockdown” is the virus
  • Some businesses are suffering
  • Even with reduced restrictions bars and restaurants were still suffering.... because there is a pandemic and a majority of customers don’t feel comfortable eating and drinking with strangers
  • Masks work to reduce the transmission
  • Spread is happening everywhere. Including in schools (largely by asymptomatic and untested kids) and then brought home where mask wearing is not happening
  • We have a vaccine
  • It will be months before most of us can get it
Arguing about the above or any nuance of a lockdown is wasted time and energy.

The biggest issue facing Canadians and the world is how we can eradicate this disease like Polio.

This herd immunity threshold is the key. Conservative estimates are that you need 70% of the population to get vaccinated.

But since the vaccine hasn’t been indicated for use in kids under 16, that leaves 7 million Canadians on the sidelines.

We will need 86% of the remaining population to take the vaccine to reach a total threshold of 70%.

And likely do this every year.

Focus on that. If that happens, businesses open. Concerts come back. Tickets get sold to sporting events.
Click to expand...

Nope
 
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Pink Mist said:
You're projecting (very clearly given your comments about the elderly dying in this post) if you think I don't care about other illnesses or the elderly outside of a pandemic.
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We all certainly don't care enough about other illnesses to be in constant fear of it or worry about it enough to agree that significantly damaging our economy and society over it is justified like with do with this virus.

And lets be real and say the vast majority of people DID NOT care about the well being of elderly people until the pandemic hit and started killing them in significant numbers otherwise we wouldn't have waited until now to be upset and critical about the kind of care or lack thereof that they were receiving prior to the virus.

The attention that covid gets is because it is contagious and is therefore an avoidable disease if measures are used to prevent its spread. Covid deaths are deaths that are completely avoidable, which is the difference between it and heart disease and cancers.
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Contagion should matter less than the effects of the virus are on the majority of people. Covid is indeed pretty contagious, but its effects are moderate to minimal to the vast majority of people who get it. As I said if covid was anywhere near as bad as the media and our experts would have us believe then it wouldn't have such a hard time killing anyone under the age of 70. That to me doesn't sound like an issue that justifies the drastic measures that we've taken.

If our objective is to save lives and prevent people from dying avoidable deaths, then we should just mandate that everyone eat healthy and exercise more and that would save infinitely more lives than worrying about dying by covid. And it would also improve the general health of our population and significantly decrease our healthcare costs as well.

And the lockdowns in Ontario have worked considering they've completely slowed down the curve in Toronto and Peel since they've been implemented
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Lockdowns don't work long term and they were not necessary for this particular virus. When the overwhelming majority of deaths are occurring in the age demographic that's nearing the end of life and when you could put every single case of covid in Canada into Ontario only and it would still only infect 4% of the population for the entire pandemic to date, then yeah I don't consider that a serious enough of a threat that justifies the massive damage to our society and economy that we've done to ourselves so far.
 
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GQS said:
We all certainly don't care enough about other illnesses to be in constant fear of it or worry about it enough to agree that significantly damaging our economy and society over it is justified like with do with this virus.

And lets be real and say the vast majority of people DID NOT care about the well being of elderly people until the pandemic hit and started killing them in significant numbers otherwise we wouldn't have waited until now to be upset and critical about the kind of care or lack thereof that they were receiving prior to the virus.



Contagion should matter less than the effects of the virus are on the majority of people. Covid is indeed pretty contagious, but its effects are moderate to minimal to the vast majority of people who get it. As I said if covid was anywhere near as bad as the media and our experts would have us believe then it wouldn't have such a hard time killing anyone under the age of 70. That to me doesn't sound like an issue that justifies the drastic measures that we've taken.

If our objective is to save lives and prevent people from dying avoidable deaths, then we should just mandate that everyone eat healthy and exercise more and that would save infinitely more lives than worrying about dying by covid. And it would also improve the general health of our population and significantly decrease our healthcare costs as well.



Lockdowns don't work long term and they were not necessary for this particular virus. When the overwhelming majority of deaths are occurring in the age demographic that's nearing the end of life and when you could put every single case of covid in Canada into Ontario only and it would still only infect 4% of the population for the entire pandemic to date, then yeah I don't consider that a serious enough of a threat that justifies the massive damage to our society and economy that we've done to ourselves so far.
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I would agree with all you said if we were the only place that was doing lockdowns. They fact that the rest of the world is doing it says a lot.

Has anyone ever thought that maybe the numbers aren't that bad due to the measures put in place. Look at the numbers and deaths in the US. The fact that California hospital ICUs are full in many cases shows what would have happened here had we not had measures in place.

I will keep repeating this over and over. WHEN DO WE START BLAMING PEOPLE for the spread of Covid? If we control the spread and keep cases low businesses could be open.
 
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stealth1 said:
I would agree with all you said if we were the only place that was doing lockdowns. They fact that the rest of the world is doing it says a lot.

Has anyone ever thought that maybe the numbers aren't that bad due to the measures put in place. Look at the numbers and deaths in the US. The fact that California hospital ICUs are full in many cases shows what would have happened here had we not had measures in place.

I will keep repeating this over and over. WHEN DO WE START BLAMING PEOPLE for the spread of Covid? If we control the spread and keep cases low businesses could be open.
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Shut everything down for 1 month and we have it curtailed. Impose curfew from 9pm to 6am with $1,000 police issued tickets if caught no leniency. Shut down all businesses and all schools. we get cases back to well under a 100. and clear hospitals again. then everything re-opens in February. in january we use military to vaccinate at 100 times rate we are doing it today. and then like US we strive to have herd immunity by May 2021. Screw this stupid September plan. If we were serious I could wipe this thing out by May 2021.
 
GQS said:
We all certainly don't care enough about other illnesses to be in constant fear of it or worry about it enough to agree that significantly damaging our economy and society over it is justified like with do with this virus.
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Once again, that's because those diseases aren't contagious. If heart attacks were contagious I'm sure we'd have more measures to control them.

And lets be real and say the vast majority of people DID NOT care about the well being of elderly people until the pandemic hit and started killing them in significant numbers otherwise we wouldn't have waited until now to be upset and critical about the kind of care or lack thereof that they were receiving prior to the virus.
Click to expand...

Projecting.



Contagion should matter less than the effects of the virus are on the majority of people. Covid is indeed pretty contagious, but its effects are moderate to minimal to the vast majority of people who get it. As I said if covid was anywhere near as bad as the media and our experts would have us believe then it wouldn't have such a hard time killing anyone under the age of 70. That to me doesn't sound like an issue that justifies the drastic measures that we've taken.
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It doesn't matter if the majority of people don't have adverse effects. The danger is that those who have minimal reactions then spread it to vulnerable populations who could have adverse reactions. Can't believe people still don't understand this a year into the pandemic. That or they just don't care about those populations. The latter is most likely.

If our objective is to save lives and prevent people from dying avoidable deaths, then we should just mandate that everyone eat healthy and exercise more and that would save infinitely more lives than worrying about dying by covid. And it would also improve the general health of our population and significantly decrease our healthcare costs as well.
Click to expand...

We do this. That's why millions is spent in public health annually to promote healthy living.



Lockdowns don't work long term and they were not necessary for this particular virus. When the overwhelming majority of deaths are occurring in the age demographic that's nearing the end of life and when you could put every single case of covid in Canada into Ontario only and it would still only infect 4% of the population for the entire pandemic to date, then yeah I don't consider that a serious enough of a threat that justifies the massive damage to our society and economy that we've done to ourselves so far.
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The success in Australia and NZ in implementing Lockdowns and controlling covid when it reappears says otherwise to your claim about the success of lockdowns. And you totally misunderstand how life expectancy works. Just because someone is 70+ doesn't mean they're at the end of their life, many are in good health. And yeah mask off on you saying you think these people are disposable.
 
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JT AM da real deal said:
Biggest age group right now in Ontario that we know of for spread is under 24ers. We are doing a lot better over 25s and significantly better at over 65s. Da issue is kids are not getting tested at younger ages. And they are largely asymptomatic. They are passing it around to parents and da cycle continues at home. If schools closed down for a month then da spread would be curtailed. It only came back in September because schools opened up. Nothing else really changed much. Right now we need to extend da 1 week school extended shutdown from January 13th opening planned today to January 27th. Then cases will have dropped again pretty significantly.
Click to expand...

I don't think kids will go back to school until after March Break at the earliest.
 
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