Coronavirus (COVID-19) Discussion Part X

[PromisedLand]

Big for-profit long-term-care companies paid out more than $170 million to investors through Ontario’s deadly first wave

LTC people are dying while the f***ing for profit LTCs are worried more about investors.

How pathetic are we going to be as human beings? I am seriously DISGUSTED!

All the govt in Canada (federal, provincial, municipal, territorial) regardless of the party are f***ing clueless. How f***ing pathetic is this?

There were reports out too that CEOs used the money given by the federal govt for wage subsidy used that money to give dividends to share holders not into wages for workers; as workers got laid off and applied for CERB. The poor, and middle class tax payers are getting bent over. Our money is being used to make rich more richer NOT helping majority of the people in the society better.

f***ING STUPID people work in the govt they should all be fired!

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

This is pretty on the nose. The restrictions that make sense in order to curb the spread while doing the least harm to the economy don't make sense intuitively to many people so they wouldn't be followed, which leads to the inclusion of different restrictions that don't make sense empirically but seem to be necessary to get people to get on board with the ones that do.

Can you give an example of each?

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

To anyone that looks to China's Wuhan numbers for context. Don't.

Zhang Zhan: China jails citizen journalist for Wuhan reports

 

[4thline]

Can you give an example of each?

@cbb25 covered the gist of it perfectly a couple of posts down.

Not at all inclusive, just for example

Makes sense:
tighter and earlier private gathering limits + ban / stringent attendance restrictions on congregate settings (commercial/social/religious) , but leave most commercial and other retail open if following distancing/ventilation/PPE guidelines is viable and adhered to. (Not just for customers, workers must be protected as well)

But then since the commercial is open you get the "it's bullshit that people can go to xx store and buy yy (an activity that can be done quite safely if done right) but I can't have a party. It doesn't make sense. I'm having my party.

Then we get into the situation where restrictions (the commercial stuff) that shouldn't have been needed come into play, both
A-to get people to clue in on the stuff that has always been key
and
B- because of their huge scale even the relatively minor spread (proportionally) becomes problematic


Another example from a different lens- people spouting off from a place of massive privilege about crowded public transit. "It's not fair that those people with no other choice have to expose themselves to a risky situation to get to work and back and I can't have my party, it doesn't make sense! I'm having my party."

 

[stealth1]

@cbb25 covered the gist of it perfectly a couple of posts down.

Not at all inclusive, just for example

Makes sense:
tighter and earlier private gathering limits + ban / stringent attendance restrictions on congregate settings (commercial/social/religious) , but leave most commercial and other retail open if following distancing/ventilation/PPE guidelines is viable and adhered to. (Not just for customers, workers must be protected as well)

But then since the commercial is open you get the "it's bullshit that people can go to xx store and buy yy (an activity that can be done quite safely if done right) but I can't have a party. It doesn't make sense. I'm having my party.

Then we get into the situation where restrictions (the commercial stuff) that shouldn't have been needed come into play, both
A-to get people to clue in on the stuff that has always been key
and
B- because of their huge scale even the relatively minor spread (proportionally) becomes problematic


Another example from a different lens- people spouting off from a place of massive privilege about crowded public transit. "It's not fair that those people with no other choice have to expose themselves to a risky situation to get to work and back and I can't have my party, it doesn't make sense! I'm having my party."

Agreed completely. IMO its a big reason we are locked down again. We keep blaming the government for lockdowns and businesses being closed. Why doesn't anyone see that we as people have failed.

 

[PromisedLand]

can the SJWs in here go to south africa

 

[PromisedLand]

People from ON are losing their minds on twitter in relation to vaccines.

I thought majority of the people in ontario were against getting vaccines because .... "reasons" whatever they may be

 

[PromisedLand]

While Taiwan is enforcing mandatory 2 week home quarantine if you travel into country;

Canada on the other hand....

WARMINGTON: Rules allow many to fly to Canada without COVID test | Toronto Sun

28 COVID-infected international flights landed in Toronto since Dec. 13 | Toronto Sun


AND in ON vaccines are not being administered due to lack of staff (according to the provincial govt).

absolutely pathetic how these morons can't plan. Incompetence at its peak regardless of the level of govt or party. I am still pissed how fed govt gave money away only for private companies to give out the money to investors/shareholders

what a f***ing JOKE

 

[stealth1]

People from ON are losing their minds on twitter in relation to vaccines.

I thought majority of the people in ontario were against getting vaccines because .... "reasons" whatever they may be

As great as that sounds it would never fly here. Look at the push back just from social distancing and mask wearing.

 

[PromisedLand]

As great as that sounds it would never fly here. Look at the push back just from social distancing and mask wearing.

It is a crapstorm. people not giving a flying F about their fellow citizens

ON govt bitching about not having enough staff to administer vaccines and sitting on billions of funds as small businesses close (flea market just shutdown for good) and shutting down vaccinations for 5 days

public health folks bitching and moaning on twitter that there was no need to shutdown for 5 days

I dont even know who to trust. what a JOKE

We live in the age of inforation and technology; but people at the helm DO NOT have any idea how to use information and technology for the benefit of society.

Absolute peak incompetence at display by decision makers and absolute peak selfishness at display by people pushing back against public health measures. And on top of that poor, lower middle class and middle class tax payers are getting screwed as all big firms use the covid money they got both federally and provincially to pay out dividends to the shareholders (including private LTC where deaths are much larger than publicly owned LTC)

I am seriously disgusted.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

It is a crapstorm. people not giving a flying F about their fellow citizens

ON govt bitching about not having enough staff to administer vaccines and sitting on billions of funds as small businesses close (flea market just shutdown for good) and shutting down vaccinations for 5 days

public health folks bitching and moaning on twitter that there was no need to shutdown for 5 days

I dont even know who to trust. what a JOKE

We live in the age of inforation and technology; but people at the helm DO NOT have any idea how to use information and technology for the benefit of society.

Absolute peak incompetence at display by decision makers and absolute peak selfishness at display by people pushing back against public health measures. And on top of that poor, lower middle class and middle class tax payers are getting screwed as all big firms use the covid money they got both federally and provincially to pay out dividends to the shareholders (including private LTC where deaths are much larger than publicly owned LTC)

I am seriously disgusted.

Just to clarify, as someone who knows a lot of people from Pickering, that flea market was certainly going to be closed down regardless. There were rumours of it being torn down as soon as the casino complex started development there.

Covid may have caused them to shut down earlier, or with more losses than expected, but it was already well down that path. I am sure the same goes for a number of other small businesses which are claiming Covid killed them, when really they likely weren't going to last another few years anyways.

However, it certainly has been handled poorly.

 

[Nineteen67]

So if this guy or folks in this picture require hospitalization; compared to the essential worker working their butts off and doctors now have to choose (like in California); who should the doctors choose?

the ones with insurance.

 

[Nineteen67]

Not to go into conspiracy realm but take numbers coming out of Florida with a grain of salt. Their governor wanted to "tweak" the numbers and the epidemiologist that refused got fired; had their house raided by cops for being a whistle blower and then one of the hand pick guy of the governor resigned.

I wouldn't be surprised if 5 years down the road the governor of florida is tried for manslaughter

Their hospital census is a little on the high side due to the fact they need to isolate or take precautions with patients that are admitted with Covid that are in for elective surgeries and not because of Covid.
There are reason we do this
A. Protecting other patients
B. You can attach the Covid ICD-10 codes and receive higher reimbursement (due to precautions you have to take) for Medicare beneficiaries.

To really gauge the burden on hospitals I tend to look at ED visit with CLI, ILI PNA and the percentage of ICU to total number of confirmed + suspected Covid patients.

 

[Kiwi]

can the SJWs in here go to south africa

I'd encourage you to go

Then you can tell us all about South African COVID policy

As well as corruption, governmental and financial mismanagement, murder, car jacking, rape, Aids, forcable land seizures and the myriad of other problems people of that country are trying to flee

Just to clarify, as someone who knows a lot of people from Pickering, that flea market was certainly going to be closed down regardless. There were rumours of it being torn down as soon as the casino complex started development there.

Covid may have caused them to shut down earlier, or with more losses than expected, but it was already well down that path. I am sure the same goes for a number of other small businesses which are claiming Covid killed them, when really they likely weren't going to last another few years anyways.

However, it certainly has been handled poorly.

I like the second paragraph, grandma was going to die eventually anyway so I took her out back and gave her the old yeller treatment

Unlike yourself I tend to think shutting businesses for months on end or severely restricting they're ability to trade was what put them out of business and nobody here knows what the long term future for most them would have been

I can tell you what it is now though

 

[cbbb25]

Can you give an example of each?

Ya, Ill use myself lol. Lets say we know that a lot of spread is from house gatherings and only minimal amounts from malls and stores and stuff being open.

You keep all that open and ask people to stay home though when not out shopping, no birthday parties ect.. and they plead its in order for businesses to survive.

I aint doing that, if someones boutique store, small restaurant you name it can be open you can bet Ill be heading north to the cottage or having people over for a bbq. Call it selfish call it whatever you want but if businesses are open im doing whatever.

You close down businesses even though there's little evidence they are the main spread and I begin to rethink holding that bbq or heading north. Even though the data showed shutting them down wasn't going to do a lot, its able to change my mindset enough to limit my gatherings.

Ill be honest I did that exact thing all summer. I know the province said please limit contact and we can stay open. But when I started seeing patios full and people out at malls I said screw this and we began having cottage weekends again 10-15 people. Now with this lockdown I feel enough pressure that instead of heading north to the cottage for New Years I've cancelled those plans and were just going to do a nice dinner at home with some zoom.

 

[nsleaf]

I'd encourage you to go

Then you can tell us all about South African COVID policy

As well as corruption, governmental and financial mismanagement, murder, car jacking, rape, Aids, forcable land seizures and the myriad of other problems people of that country are trying to flee



I like the second paragraph, grandma was going to die eventually anyway so I took her out back and gave her the old yeller treatment

Unlike yourself I tend to think shutting businesses for months on end or severely restricting they're ability to trade was what put them out of business and nobody here knows what the long term future for most them would have been

I can tell you what it is now though

And do add, kiwi is green, fuzzy and...........?

 

[SeaOfBlue]

I like the second paragraph, grandma was going to die eventually anyway so I took her out back and gave her the old yeller treatment

Unlike yourself I tend to think shutting businesses for months on end or severely restricting they're ability to trade was what put them out of business and nobody here knows what the long term future for most them would have been

I can tell you what it is now though

In terms of the flea market, its future was set in stone. Literally everything else around it was getting torn down for Durham Live, and that is going to be a whole high end luxury complex. They are not going to have a flea market right in the middle of that, and they need the land.

The flea market did not even own the land. They had no say. It's government land, and the Durham Live project is a government project. They were going to be shut down regardless, and in fact, Covid probably extended its life since they had to delay certain developments. The businesses in the flea market were already aware and had a few years to plan.

As for the other small businesses, a non-Covid world does not suddenly mean all businesses are prosperous. A lot of businesses get shut down every year simply because they are not viable. Just because there was a pandemic does not mean that certain places would not have struggled or folded anyways. Same with the fact that there would still be a lot of deaths in long term care homes, especially since the issues that caused the high number of deaths have persisted for decades before this pandemic, and this pandemic was pretty much just the match that lit the fire and made everyone aware of those issues.

There will be higher proportion than usual, and some businesses that may have been on the edge but may have survived probably went under (or some people who should have lived, died), but we are still talking about a lot of small businesses. The main thing is that their replacements are not going to start up as fast, and that affects the economy. And we are talking about a lot of unnecessary deaths that could have prevented, or at least attributed to more socially accepted causes (car accidents, cancer, natural causes, etc.).

 

[stealth1]

Ya, Ill use myself lol. Lets say we know that a lot of spread is from house gatherings and only minimal amounts from malls and stores and stuff being open.

You keep all that open and ask people to stay home though when not out shopping, no birthday parties ect.. and they plead its in order for businesses to survive.

I aint doing that, if someones boutique store, small restaurant you name it can be open you can bet Ill be heading north to the cottage or having people over for a bbq. Call it selfish call it whatever you want but if businesses are open im doing whatever.

You close down businesses even though there's little evidence they are the main spread and I begin to rethink holding that bbq or heading north. Even though the data showed shutting them down wasn't going to do a lot, its able to change my mindset enough to limit my gatherings.

Ill be honest I did that exact thing all summer. I know the province said please limit contact and we can stay open. But when I started seeing patios full and people out at malls I said screw this and we began having cottage weekends again 10-15 people. Now with this lockdown I feel enough pressure that instead of heading north to the cottage for New Years I've cancelled those plans and were just going to do a nice dinner at home with some zoom.

I understand where you're coming from. I see at every day on Facebook from many friends. Too many don't understand the difference in having private gatherings and being inside a business

 

[Kiwi]

In terms of the flea market, its future was set in stone. Literally everything else around it was getting torn down for Durham Live, and that is going to be a whole high end luxury complex. They are not going to have a flea market right in the middle of that, and they need the land.

The flea market did not even own the land. They had no say. It's government land, and the Durham Live project is a government project. They were going to be shut down regardless, and in fact, Covid probably extended its life since they had to delay certain developments. The businesses in the flea market were already aware and had a few years to plan.

As for the other small businesses, a non-Covid world does not suddenly mean all businesses are prosperous. A lot of businesses get shut down every year simply because they are not viable. Just because there was a pandemic does not mean that certain places would not have struggled or folded anyways. Same with the fact that there would still be a lot of deaths in long term care homes, especially since the issues that caused the high number of deaths have persisted for decades before this pandemic, and this pandemic was pretty much just the match that lit the fire and made everyone aware of those issues.

There will be higher proportion than usual, and some businesses that may have been on the edge but may have survived probably went under (or some people who should have lived, died), but we are still talking about a lot of small businesses. The main thing is that their replacements are not going to start up as fast, and that affects the economy. And we are talking about a lot of unnecessary deaths that could have prevented, or at least attributed to more socially accepted causes (car accidents, cancer, natural causes, etc.).

It also doesn't mean they weren't prosperous and wouldn't have had solid long term futures if they hadn't have had this done to them

Nice justification for destroying people's livings and employment though, makes it easier if you pretend your just putting them out of they're misery instead of ruining lives and livelihoods

And were the pricks who don't care about grandma?

 

[stealth1]

Its a good reminder that our contact circles are way bigger than we think. It’s a huge reason “isolate the vulnerable” is harder than it sounds. Isolate the infected, there’s less of them than any other group. Bonus, they stop being infectious after a short time unlike the vulnerable who are that way nearly forever.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I understand where you're coming from. I see at every day on Facebook from many friends. Too many don't understand the difference in having private gatherings and being inside a business

Lots of people do understand the difference. One helps corporations, the other doesn't.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

View attachment 380827

Its a good reminder that our contact circles are way bigger than we think. It’s a huge reason “isolate the vulnerable” is harder than it sounds. Isolate the infected, there’s less of them than any other group. Bonus, they stop being infectious after a short time unlike the vulnerable who are that way nearly forever.

Now show one with someone going on a bus, a subway, a burger king, and then dozens of stores in a shopping mall.

 

[Pookie]

The spread of the virus is the cause of the shut downs.

stop the spreads... businesses stay open.

simple stuff.

 

[stealth1]

Lots of people do understand the difference. One helps corporations, the other doesn't.

I wasn't talking about lockdowns or businesses being closed. You obviously don't see the difference in why you can go shopping but not visit family.

 

[stealth1]

Now show one with someone going on a bus, a subway, a burger king, and then dozens of stores in a shopping mall.

You aren't spending more then 15 minutes around anyone at those places. Covid is most likely to spread when around an infected person for more then 15 minutes. When you are around people in your home you spend more then 15 minutes around them and not wearing masks. Its not hard to understand.