Coronavirus (COVID-19) Discussion Part X

[Throw More Waffles]

Your source does not suggest that all hospital workers and other essential workers wear N95s. It suggests that high risk workers wear N95s. This is because N95s protect these high risk individuals, however, they do not protect others who would be inhaling their aerosol droplets. This is why, at scale, N95s do not reduce the spread of Covid unless EVERYONE is wearing an N95. Is this really a hard concept to grasp?

And just a quick note on the CIDRAP source on Masks and Science: the guest Dr. on the episode has gripes with the way the government and health authorities have communicated the effectiveness of masks in general, and that poorly designed cloth masks continue to pose risks to the user and others. The Dr. also found that those blue surgical masks are far more effective at reducing aerosol transmission than poorly designed cloth masks. And guess what, the guest Dr. also submits that he himself wears cloth masks when in public.

We live in a very complex and nuanced world. The nuanced view is that N95s don't reduce spread at scale, surgical masks are better than cloth masks, but multi-layered, face-fitted cloth masks with an additional layer of silk/chiffon seem to be the best solution at preventing the aerosol spread of this virus.

Why would those 500 experts recommend high risk workers to wear n-95 masks? Your argument is that cloth masks are just as effective as n-95, right? Those 500 experts are wrong?

 

[Peggy]

the fact that a woman’s dying words are considered “fear mongering” in your view says everything we need to know.

you shed tears for curbside pickup rules but none for actual dead people.

I’m sad for you.

It is fear mongering. It's manipulative. To shove a dying person video in my face and go "LOOK THIS PERSON DIED AND IT'S YOUR FAULT"

You also make petty assumptions that my biggest issues with these lock downs are curb side pick

Continue to be a spineless sheep and live your life in fear while spreading fear and shaming other's

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I think you are going to have an interesting debate day on your hands.

@Throw More Waffles presented a letter yesterday sent by over 500 extremely qualified microbiologists, epidemiologists and others who highlighted that aerosol transmission is common and an important route of transmission.

they recommended that high risk aerosol transmission places such as bars, restaurants and gyms meet a improved ventilation standard as part of any plan to reopen.

it’s not safe to be in these high risk places. And they will have to invest in improved ventilation before they can be declared safe to open.

I’ll let you guys hash that one out.

Covid is spreading everywhere at record high's and everyone is masked up at this point (a few viral video outliers notwithstanding). Maybe those 500 experts are on to something...

 

[JT AM da real deal]

I wonder if the influx of hospital admissions will get some people to care when this starts affecting THEIR OWN health?

ICU’s in Toronto are at capacity.

The Ontario Hospital Association is about to release a report detailing that the number of nurse retirements is up by 10-15% this year. Meaning, fewer nurses overall.

And in Hamilton, vaccine administration is at a standstill. With capacity to deliver 2 doses per hour.

The current plan calls for healthcare workers to administer the vaccine and there are very few available to leave the floor.

Only have to look stateside to LA to see that they are rationing who gets oxygen and instructing ambulances not to bring them patients like heart attack victims who do not have a pulse.

That’s what we are trying to prevent.

Yes my neighbour is an emerg doc at Trillium 10/Queensway and they are full and have been for awhile ... did you know Mississauga/Brampton has been transporting cases to Halton for some time now ... my mom said Trillium was full of old farts like her in ICU for a time and that was before holidays ... we have to do something different to stop all these old folks from getting sick and hospitalized with COVID ... nothing we are doing now is working at all ... it is getting worse ... da young kids are getting a raw deal they know it and they know they are not gonna die so they are spreading it like crazy ... da infections growth are mostly all under 24 ... opening schools is not helping either ... we need to have a complete shutdown for 3-4 weeks and take this seriously while at same time getting some proper management of vaccines in place ... running anything by committee is always a F up

 

[Peggy]

Yes my neighbour is an emerg doc at Trillium 10/Queensway and they are full and have been for awhile ... did you know Mississauga/Brampton has been transporting cases to Halton for some time now ... my mom said Trillium was full of old farts like her in ICU for a time and that was before holidays ... we have to do something different to stop all these old folks from getting sick and hospitalized with COVID ... nothing we are doing now is working at all ... it is getting worse ... da young kids are getting a raw deal they know it and they know they are not gonna die so they are spreading it like crazy ... da infections growth are mostly all under 24 ... opening schools is not helping either ... we need to have a complete shutdown for 3-4 weeks and take this seriously while at same time getting some proper management of vaccines in place ... running anything by committee is always a F up

Yupp..the government has been pretty despicable with this pandemic and people like Pookie like to point fingers at the average joe

The government and media has people fighting with each other when everyone should blaming the government with how terrible they've handled this

 

[PromisedLand]

According to CDC its 60% of US adult population that has some form of underlying conditions.

Chronic Diseases in America | CDC

Cant find such stats for Canada and then provinces; does anyone know of a good source to look at?

 

[Pookie]

It is fear mongering. It's manipulative. To shove a dying person video in my face and go "LOOK THIS PERSON DIED AND IT'S YOUR FAULT"

You also make petty assumptions that my biggest issues with these lock downs are curb side pick

Continue to be a spineless sheep and live your life in fear while spreading fear and shaming other's

It was the dying woman’s wish to record the video. And her family fulfilled it.

you call it fear mongering.

that says everything needed to say about your empathy.

your biggest issue obviously isn’t killing people.... so I may regret this... but enlighten me, what’s your biggest issue?

 

[Pookie]

Covid is spreading everywhere at record high's and everyone is masked up at this point (a few viral video outliers notwithstanding). Maybe those 500 experts are on to something...

I agree. I have no reason to dispute their findings and recommendations that high risk businesses be required to improve ventilation before reopening.

do you agree?

 

[Pookie]

Yupp..the government has been pretty despicable with this pandemic and people like Pookie like to point fingers at the average joe

The government and media has people fighting with each other when everyone should blaming the government with how terrible they've handled this

I’m saying everyone has a personal responsibility to do what they can to prevent the spread.

considering you personally claim to have spread the virus, you’d think you’d be urging caution instead of calling a dead woman a fear monger.

 

[PromisedLand]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/bodies-stored-trailer-london-1.5861544

this is just sad

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I agree. I have no reason to dispute their findings and recommendations that high risk businesses be required to improve ventilation before reopening.

do you agree?

I've made my position pretty clear that for the vast vast majority of people covid is the mere sniffles. So who cares if they go to a restaurant and get the sniffles. The $240 billion dollars should have been focused directly on protecting the vulnerable.

75% of all deaths are at ltc facilities. Maybe that's where the focus should be...

 

[4thline]

So you tell me when 3 out of every 4 Canadian deaths are occuring in LTC facilities, in what world would it NOT make sense to make every effort to isolate and protect those facilities and patients? And on the other side of the coin, the fact that we have millions and millions of seniors living in the general population and only a few thousand have died? How does that not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the virus isn't a huge issue when you can have so many millions of seniors being potentially exposed to the virus and have only something like 2-3000 die outside of LTCs to date after almost an entire year of this pandemic?

I've got a draughty window in my house, makes up about 75% of the overall heat loss. Once I fix it I'll be able to replace all the doors with mesh screens, because the last year has proven beyond all reasonable doubt that the window is the problem.

 

[Pookie]

I've made my position pretty clear that for the vast vast majority of people covid is the mere sniffles. So who cares if they go to a restaurant and get the sniffles. The $240 billion dollars should have been focused directly on protecting the vulnerable.

75% of all deaths are at ltc facilities. Maybe that's where the focus should be...

wait.

If for the vast majority of people it’s the sniffles, why do you care so much about aerosols and masks?

If cloth masks don’t work, it’s just the sniffles... right?

besides, requiring ventilation that meets a standard into the reopening plan for high risk businesses defined as bars, restaurants and gyms is the recommendation of the 500 experts you held up on a pedestal just yesterday.

Are you now saying you know more than them?

 

[GQS]

I really don't want to argue or debate on the validity of lockdowns, but I am curious as to why you believe the majority of health experts, virologists, politicians are lying to us?

What purpose does it serve? While numbers that people post are close to accurate, the majority of people that die are from LTC'S, it's not 75% but close.

This was back at the end of November so numbers may have changed, but according to here:

Despite it all, Ottawa still has no public database keeping track of how badly long-term care homes are being hit on a national scale.

That’s left people like freelance journalist Nora Loreto to try and tally up the national numbers on their own.

According to Loreto, a whopping 77 per cent of COVID-19 deaths can be traced to long-term care and senior homes.

Long-term care homes once again emerge as COVID-19 hotspots

Also as to why I don't believe all the medical experts blindly like so many people do? Because the covid data posted on Ontario's own website paints a far different picture than what all those experts, politicians and the media say. If you did nothing but watch the news and believed everything they say, you'd probably be significantly more worried and afraid of the virus than if you did your own research online.

Also for all the people working in the medical field in Ontario, there is a motive to play things up when they're getting so much extra money right now after Doug Ford was planning to cut funding to them just last year before the virus hit.

Thankfully with modern medicine, those young and relatively healthy enough recover after hospitalization. But the issue remains that without some sort of mitigation, and when you allow the virus to run free through the population it does create havoc on the health system.

Except it hasn't which is why throughout the entire pandemic when they kept telling us that hospitals are almost 'overwhelmed' they hardly ever are except in maybe a few isolated cases. At no time has the medical system as a whole been 'overwhelmed' with covid patients. That's certainly what it sounds like when the media and experts talk to the public when during all this time as its always been long before the virus hit, hospitals have been near capacity with patients anyways. Covid just added to that abit and now they're 'overwhelmed'.

Now countries that previously didn't have tough measures have changed their strategy and are imposing stricter rules.

The much talked about Sweden only began implementing a few more restrictions during this 2nd wave and that's after about 87% of all covid deaths still being over the age of 70. Yes we can acknowledge that their senior population took a significant hit, but I'll never understand why people say 'Sweden failed' when taking relatively few measures for so long only resulted in their 70+ senior population taking the biggest hit.

Meanwhile Japan is still chugging along largely untouched throughout the pandemic despite implementing only a few measures, but without doing any large scale shutdowns. Again funny how healthy populations are barely touched through this entire time.

 

[Peggy]

I've got a draughty window in my house, makes up about 75% of the overall heat loss. Once I fix it I'll be able to replace all the doors with mesh screens, because the last year has proven beyond all reasonable doubt that the window is the problem.

People like you just want to argue
That's a terrible analogy

In Alberta there's 104k cases 1000 deaths

Around 800 of those deaths are +80 of age

~200 of them are people in their 70s

And you want to compare that to losing heat from a window?

 

[Pookie]

This was back at the end of November so numbers may have changed, but according to here:



Long-term care homes once again emerge as COVID-19 hotspots

Also as to why I don't believe all the medical experts blindly like so many people do? Because the covid data posted on Ontario's own website paints a far different picture than what all those experts, politicians and the media say. If you did nothing but watch the news and believed everything they say, you'd probably be significantly more worried and afraid of the virus than if you did your own research online.

Also for all the people working in the medical field in Ontario, there is a motive to play things up when they're getting so much extra money right now after Doug Ford was planning to cut funding to them just last year before the virus hit.



Except it hasn't which is why throughout the entire pandemic when they kept telling us that hospitals are almost 'overwhelmed' they hardly ever are except in maybe a few isolated cases. At no time has the medical system as a whole been 'overwhelmed' with covid patients. That's certainly what it sounds like when the media and experts talk to the public when during all this time as its always been long before the virus hit, hospitals have been near capacity with patients anyways. Covid just added to that abit and now they're 'overwhelmed'.



The much talked about Sweden only began implementing a few more restrictions during this 2nd wave and that's after about 87% of all covid deaths still being over the age of 70. Yes we can acknowledge that their senior population took a significant hit, but I'll never understand why people say 'Sweden failed' when taking relatively few measures for so long only resulted in their 70+ senior population taking the biggest hit.

Meanwhile Japan is still chugging along largely untouched throughout the pandemic despite implementing only a few measures, but without doing any large scale shutdowns. Again funny how healthy populations are barely touched through this entire time.

people in the medical field are playing up the virus to make more money??

Seriously?????

 

[4thline]

And you want to compare that to losing heat from a window?

No I want to point out how pants on head stupid it is to argue that plugging a hole allows you to tear down a dam.

 

[Peggy]

This was back at the end of November so numbers may have changed, but according to here:



Long-term care homes once again emerge as COVID-19 hotspots

Also as to why I don't believe all the medical experts blindly like so many people do? Because the covid data posted on Ontario's own website paints a far different picture than what all those experts, politicians and the media say. If you did nothing but watch the news and believed everything they say, you'd probably be significantly more worried and afraid of the virus than if you did your own research online.

Also for all the people working in the medical field in Ontario, there is a motive to play things up when they're getting so much extra money right now after Doug Ford was planning to cut funding to them just last year before the virus hit.



Except it hasn't which is why throughout the entire pandemic when they kept telling us that hospitals are almost 'overwhelmed' they hardly ever are except in maybe a few isolated cases. At no time has the medical system as a whole been 'overwhelmed' with covid patients. That's certainly what it sounds like when the media and experts talk to the public when during all this time as its always been long before the virus hit, hospitals have been near capacity with patients anyways. Covid just added to that abit and now they're 'overwhelmed'.



The much talked about Sweden only began implementing a few more restrictions during this 2nd wave and that's after about 87% of all covid deaths still being over the age of 70. Yes we can acknowledge that their senior population took a significant hit, but I'll never understand why people say 'Sweden failed' when taking relatively few measures for so long only resulted in their 70+ senior population taking the biggest hit.

Meanwhile Japan is still chugging along largely untouched throughout the pandemic despite implementing only a few measures, but without doing any large scale shutdowns. Again funny how healthy populations are barely touched through this entire time.

Yupp. More people have died from suicide in Japan in one month than anyone has died from the virus all year

The Tokyo Dome just hosted a show that had an audience too

 

[Peggy]

people in the medical field are playing up the virus to make more money??

Seriously?????

You seriously haven't been paying attention

 

[Pookie]

You seriously haven't been paying attention

not to the conspiracy sites he goes to... no.

 

[Jojalu]

This was back at the end of November so numbers may have changed, but according to here:



Long-term care homes once again emerge as COVID-19 hotspots

Also as to why I don't believe all the medical experts blindly like so many people do? Because the covid data posted on Ontario's own website paints a far different picture than what all those experts, politicians and the media say. If you did nothing but watch the news and believed everything they say, you'd probably be significantly more worried and afraid of the virus than if you did your own research online.

Also for all the people working in the medical field in Ontario, there is a motive to play things up when they're getting so much extra money right now after Doug Ford was planning to cut funding to them just last year before the virus hit.



Except it hasn't which is why throughout the entire pandemic when they kept telling us that hospitals are almost 'overwhelmed' they hardly ever are except in maybe a few isolated cases. At no time has the medical system as a whole been 'overwhelmed' with covid patients. That's certainly what it sounds like when the media and experts talk to the public when during all this time as its always been long before the virus hit, hospitals have been near capacity with patients anyways. Covid just added to that abit and now they're 'overwhelmed'.



The much talked about Sweden only began implementing a few more restrictions during this 2nd wave and that's after about 87% of all covid deaths still being over the age of 70. Yes we can acknowledge that their senior population took a significant hit, but I'll never understand why people say 'Sweden failed' when taking relatively few measures for so long only resulted in their 70+ senior population taking the biggest hit.

Meanwhile Japan is still chugging along largely untouched throughout the pandemic despite implementing only a few measures, but without doing any large scale shutdowns. Again funny how healthy populations are barely touched through this entire time.

I agree that we need to re-evaluate our sedentary lifestyles, as well as our consumption habits.

As Promiseland pointed out, there are far too many people with underlying conditions, and a lot of those conditions are brought upon ourselves.

Anyways. Thanks for your honest response

 

[Peggy]

No I want to point out how pants on head stupid it is to argue that plugging a hole allows you to tear down a dam.

You think acknowledging the leading cause of spikes in death is like plugging a whole ina dam? Another analogy that does not accurately depict this pandemic

 

[Peggy]

not to the conspiracy sites he goes to... no.

It's not a conspiracy site..it's truth. Denying truth is no different than believing conspiracies that have no backing.
It's been stated and public that hospitals have been getting extra funding for cocid and also based off covid cases. That's not a conspiracy that's a fact

 

[4thline]

You think acknowledging the leading cause of spikes in death is like plugging a whole ina dam? Another analogy that does not accurately depict this pandemic

It's actually pretty bang on, if somewhat callous. LTC patients make up the majority of deaths because we've prevented open spread through the population.

"LTC patients are the majority of deaths, we need to do better" = Correct

"LTC's are the majority of deaths, therefore it's not serious, everything else we're doing is a waste and if we could prevent them no further action would be necessary" = Moronic

 

[JT AM da real deal]

I can't believe some bright health care mind in da world has not figured out how to contain virus from vast majority of people getting sick and dying ... we are leaving it up to politicians ... OMG no wonder we are failing bad at it ... then those politicians form a committee and oh well makes a bad situation even worse to getting a vaccine out ... it is so sad that we had months of knowing this was coming and we did seat F all about it. a colossal failure in my books