Coronavirus (COVID-19) Discussion Part X

[Pookie]

It's not a conspiracy site..it's truth. Denying truth is no different than believing conspiracies that have no backing.
It's been stated and public that hospitals have been getting extra funding for cocid and also based off covid cases. That's not a conspiracy that's a fact

holy moly....

Hospitals are getting extra funding to buy supplies and build field hospitals, extra icu beds.

They aren’t splitting the profits. Hospitals are not for profit entities.

It’s just.... oh my.... Lordy.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

wait.

If for the vast majority of people it’s the sniffles, why do you care so much about aerosols and masks?

If cloth masks don’t work, it’s just the sniffles... right?

besides, requiring ventilation that meets a standard into the reopening plan for high risk businesses defined as bars, restaurants and gyms is the recommendation of the 500 experts you held up on a pedestal just yesterday.

Are you now saying you know more than them?

Their research supports everything I've been saying (which I primarily learned from listening to experts at the cidrap). Half-measures don't work. Pretty much everywhere is at peak highs right now, and EVERYONE is masked up. Why? Because (as those experts showed) it's much more about aerosols. If we're going to continue with half measures, then I of course agree with these experts for how it should be implemented. If cloth masks work so well, then why does this letter even exist? There are already mask mandates and everyone's already wearing them. Why are they emphasing ventilation systems to such a degree if cloth masks work so well against aerosols? Why are they pretty much insisting that high risk workers wear n-95 masks if cloth masks work so well against aerosols?

CLEARLY they don't think "if everyone just wore masks my kids would be back at work". Why else would they bring these other things up?

Now, I still think we shouldn't do half measures at all. We should either do what Wuhan did (literal house arrest for a month) or do literally NO lockdowns at all and invest that $240 billion on ltc facilities.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

No I want to point out how pants on head stupid it is to argue that plugging a hole allows you to tear down a dam.

Plugging a hole in a dam saves the dam. And then you allow the water to build up. Much better analogy imo.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

You think acknowledging the leading cause of spikes in death is like plugging a whole ina dam? Another analogy that does not accurately depict this pandemic

Exactly. Protecting LTC centres *is* the dam.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Now that our hospitals are at or close to capacity what are these politicians gonna say now? and we have 3 more months of bad bad bad numbers ahead... god help us folks Italy here we come in February ... i hope i am dead wrong but these half measures clearly are NOT working at all

 

[4thline]

Exactly. Protecting LTC centres *is* the dam.

It's not and that's exactly the point. It's the pain point *after* preventative measures. The chink in the armor.
It's something that needs(ed) to be handled better, but handling it better doesn't make the need for other protection go away.

You're way too smart of person to fall into that trap.

 

[authentic]

Now that our hospitals are at or close to capacity what are these politicians gonna say now? and we have 3 more months of bad bad bad numbers ahead... god help us folks Italy here we come in February ... i hope i am dead wrong but these half measures clearly are NOT working at all

I think shutting down small businesses and letting big box stores and factories run wild is clearly not the answer.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Now that our hospitals are at or close to capacity what are these politicians gonna say now? and we have 3 more months of bad bad bad numbers ahead... god help us folks Italy here we come in February ... i hope i am dead wrong but these half measures clearly are NOT working at all

It's because the general public is under the misunderstanding that all it takes to beat covid is for everyone to mask up. This is what I keep saying... exaggerating mask effectiveness is dangerous. Remember, that doesn't mean I'm saying that cloth masks don't help at all. They do. Just FAR less than the average person thinks they do. Misinformation from people like Pookie most certainly doesn't help.

As those 500 experts showed yesterday, we need to start emphasizing how covid spreads significantly via aerosols, and acknowledge that most of the guidelines everyone currently follows are not based on aerosol science. That's a very significant problem, and it's why we're at peak highs pretty much everywhere.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

It's not and that's exactly the point. It's the pain point *after* preventative measures. The chink in the armor.
It's something that needs(ed) to be handled better, but handling it better doesn't make the need for other protection go away.

You're way too smart of person to fall into that trap.

- a dam usually is minimally stressed with water levels much lower than design levels.

- a hole appearing in the dam is a major problem compromising the purpose of the dam.

- fix the hole and the dam is ready to withstand water levels much higher than day-to-day levels.

Sorry but I think my analogy (errr... my interpretation of your analogy) is bang on.

 

[Pookie]

Their research supports everything I've been saying (which I primarily learned from listening to experts at the cidrap). Half-measures don't work. Pretty much everywhere is at peak highs right now, and EVERYONE is masked up. Why? Because (as those experts showed) it's much more about aerosols. If we're going to continue with half measures, then I of course agree with these experts for how it should be implemented. If cloth masks work so well, then why does this letter even exist? There are already mask mandates and everyone's already wearing them. Why are they emphasing ventilation systems to such a degree if cloth masks work so well against aerosols? Why are they pretty much insisting that high risk workers wear n-95 masks if cloth masks work so well against aerosols?

CLEARLY they don't think "if everyone just wore masks my kids would be back at work". Why else would they bring these other things up?

Now, I still think we shouldn't do half measures at all. We should either do what Wuhan did (literal house arrest for a month) or do literally NO lockdowns at all and invest that $240 billion on ltc facilities.

well if you did nothing, you would need to build more hospitals.

In any event, if you are willing to argue with the anti-lockdown crowd regarding the risk of aerosols in high risk businesses AND the need to improve their ventilation before they reopen... we are good.

 

[4thline]

- a dam usually is minimally stressed with water levels much lower than design levels.

- a hole appearing in the dam is a major problem compromising the purpose of the dam.

- fix the hole and the dam is ready to withstand water levels much higher than day-to-day levels.

Sorry but I think my analogy (errr... my interpretation of your analogy) is bang on.

This interpretation is, and I agree with it (with modifications)
All of our covid measures = hastily erected sandbag wall to keep town from flooding
LTC deaths = leak, currently only effecting one "vulnerable" neighbourhood, flooding it badly. Despite most of the town being fairly dry the leak needs to be fixed because-
A- everyone deserves to be protected
B- that leak is threatening to spread and collapse the damn, plus it's already taxing the stormwater system to the max.

I think you and me are in complete agreement to this point.

Where things diverge is when people in a dry part of town pointing at the effected neighbourhood say "I'm dry and it was too much work building this wall whole around the whole town. We should have just built it around the wet part" and thinking that the outcome would have been the same.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

well if you did nothing, you would need to build more hospitals.

In any event, if you are willing to argue with the anti-lockdown crowd regarding the risk of aerosols in high risk businesses AND the need to improve their ventilation before they reopen... we are good.

Has to go both ways then. Why would those 500 experts be even suggesting all of those changes if cloth masks work effectively against aerosols? You agree yet that you have/had an exaggerated viewpoint on mask effectiveness? If so, we are good...

 

[JT AM da real deal]

We better up our game and fast ... pretty soon we will get like California at 1,000 deaths per 1M people or even worse like Italy where 1,300 people are dying per 1M people and they are right back to deciding who gets hospital service and who doesn't ... we are catching up to these places fast

 

[Pookie]

Has to go both ways then. Why would those 500 experts be even suggesting all of those changes if cloth masks work effectively against aerosols? You agree yet that you have/had an exaggerated viewpoint on mask effectiveness? If so, we are good...

because people take the masks off in those places and are exposed to droplets and aerosols.

I posted a chart awhile back on the effectiveness of various masks from
n95 with or without valves to cloth to cotton to neck gaiters. This has never been a point of contention for me.

 

[Pookie]

We better up our game and fast ... pretty soon we will get like California at 1,000 deaths per 1M people or even worse like Italy where 1,300 people are dying per 1M people and they are right back to deciding who gets hospital service and who doesn't ... we are catching up to these places fast

well said.

approx 9-10% of all Covid cases end up in hospital.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

well said.

approx 9-10% of all Covid cases end up in hospital.

There has to be a way to DRAW A LINE IN DA SAND ... keep over 70's away from under 70's for a few months ... it will be hard for all of us to do but maybe that's it ... it can pass around from a 13 to a 23 back to a 17 to a 43 and then a 51 no problem but we have to stop it from passing around da over 70 crowd somehow

 

[Pookie]

There has to be a way to DRAW A LINE IN DA SAND ... keep over 70's away from under 70's for a few months ... it will be hard for all of us to do but maybe that's it ... it can pass around from a 13 to a 23 back to a 17 to a 43 and then a 51 no problem but we have to stop it from passing around da over 70 crowd somehow

they tried that over the holidays. Apparently it didn’t work.

 

[Pookie]

Field hospital in Burlington, Ont., ready to take patients as rising COVID-19 cases strain health-care system


The Burlington, Ont., facility, built on the grounds of Joseph Brant Hospital, was ready to treat patients as of Monday.

The hospital says it’s responding to increased pressure on hospital capacity across the southern Ontario region that includes Hamilton, Niagara, Haldimand County and Burlington.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

they tried that over the holidays. Apparently it didn’t work.

Yeah I know i was one of our collective problems as a COVID survivor ... but it may be my last holidays with my mom and dad due to health issues so i can't preach on that one ... this is a super hard issue to deal with and manage

 

[The CyNick]

Their research supports everything I've been saying (which I primarily learned from listening to experts at the cidrap). Half-measures don't work. Pretty much everywhere is at peak highs right now, and EVERYONE is masked up. Why? Because (as those experts showed) it's much more about aerosols. If we're going to continue with half measures, then I of course agree with these experts for how it should be implemented. If cloth masks work so well, then why does this letter even exist? There are already mask mandates and everyone's already wearing them. Why are they emphasing ventilation systems to such a degree if cloth masks work so well against aerosols? Why are they pretty much insisting that high risk workers wear n-95 masks if cloth masks work so well against aerosols?

CLEARLY they don't think "if everyone just wore masks my kids would be back at work". Why else would they bring these other things up?

Now, I still think we shouldn't do half measures at all. We should either do what Wuhan did (literal house arrest for a month) or do literally NO lockdowns at all and invest that $240 billion on ltc facilities.

Just let people choose.

No different than you can choose to not get the flu shot every year, thereby increasing the chances you get the flu. You make a personal choice if you feel you can fight off the flu.

President Trump is an out of shape 70+ year old man. He fought covid in two days. I feel like if you want to go out in public and go to a restaurant with 100 you should be able to do that. Yes, you may get covid, but the vast vast vast majority of healthy people will fight it off VERY EASILY.

Masks, distancing, lockdowns, etc. None of it will get rid of covid 100%. Its here forever, just gotta accept that and decide if you want to be a guy who lives in his cellar or take a chance on living in society with your fellow humans.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

because people take the masks off in those places and are exposed to droplets and aerosols.

I posted a chart awhile back on the effectiveness of various masks from
n95 with or without valves to cloth to cotton to neck gaiters. This has never been a point of contention for me.

So why does that letter borderline insist that high risk health care workers wear n-95's and not just regular cloth masks? That seems like pretty silly advice if cloth masks are effective against aerosols.

And if cloth masks aren't very effective against aerosols, and covid largely spreads via aerosols, is it any wonder that cases are where they're at? See how your misinformation was DANGEROUS?

I think this is sort of an impasse for you. These experts were by NO MEANS just talking about restaurants you know. They want these ventilator's pretty much everywhere. Places of employment, public places, shopping centers. Everywhere. But everyones already wearing masks at such locations. Say, I wonder if that means masks aren't very effective against aerosols?

Listen, if cloth masks WERE very effective against aerosols, want to know what that letter would have said? "Keep wearing masks". The end.

 

[Pookie]

Yeah I know i was one of our collective problems as a COVID survivor ... but it may be my last holidays with my mom and dad due to health issues so i can't preach on that one ... this is a super hard issue to deal with and manage

totally get your pain and challenge.

my dad won’t make it through the year. He has a terminal condition.

last night he ended up in hospital again.... alone. No family allowed to go with him.

He was waiting in the hall on a bed in his own vomit before someone was able to come and change him. Since he had no clothes, he was laying there in hall without a shirt.

Fortunately, it wasn’t his time yet. They stabilized his vitals and released him. We picked him up at 4am in his slippers.

And people want to rail on about how they can’t go on European vacations or that their life isn’t normal?

good lord.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Just let people choose.

No different than you can choose to not get the flu shot every year, thereby increasing the chances you get the flu. You make a personal choice if you feel you can fight off the flu.

President Trump is an out of shape 70+ year old man. He fought covid in two days. I feel like if you want to go out in public and go to a restaurant with 100 you should be able to do that. Yes, you may get covid, but the vast vast vast majority of healthy people will fight it off VERY EASILY.

Masks, distancing, lockdowns, etc. None of it will get rid of covid 100%. Its here forever, just gotta accept that and decide if you want to be a guy who lives in his cellar or take a chance on living in society with your fellow humans.

I agree. I wear a mask everywhere I'm supposed to because it makes everyone more comfortable and I don't want to be bothered with confrontation. It's really no big concern of mine.

But what i AM concerned about is the misinformation/exaggerations about mask effectiveness. It's dangerous. Like I said earlier, I saw a reddit post where someone asked "I'm very immune compromised, but want to go back to the gym. Are masks being enforced there?" There were dozens of replies and all of them said things like "Yes, masks are enforced so it's completely safe for you." Now, do you really think the 500 experts who signed that letter yesterday about ventilation and aerosol spread would agree with that assessment? That a heavily at risk individual is safe at a non-ventilated gym because "everyone's wearing masks"?

Sure, he'd be slightly... slightly safer with everyone at masks. But by no means "safe".

So misinformation about mask effectivness from people like Pookie is very VERY dangerous.

 

[Pookie]

So misinformation about mask effectivness from people like Pookie is very VERY dangerous.

whoa dude.

I posted a detailed look at how your odds of getting Covid are as high as 80% even if you are wearing a mask.

let’s not suggest that I’m spreading very dangerous information when I haven’t seen you challenge a single person on their support for breaking travel protocols or desire a let it rip strategy in the general public.

come on man. You are better than that.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

totally get your pain and challenge.

my dad won’t make it through the year. He has a terminal condition.

last night he ended up in hospital again.... alone. No family allowed to go with him.

He was waiting in the hall on a bed in his own vomit before someone was able to come and change him. Since he had no clothes, he was laying there in hall without a shirt.

Fortunately, it wasn’t his time yet. They stabilized his vitals and released him. We picked him up at 4am in his slippers.

And people want to rail on about how they can’t go on European vacations or that their life isn’t normal?

good lord.

It is tough man and i feel for you ... my mom has had 2 strokes in Mississauga hospitals twice and dad in phase 4 cancer situation but lucky from him in remission past year going back and forth from florida for fairly radical treatments ... times are crazy and i am only one who got COVID they luckily enough did not get it at hospitals or in travel ... i don't get this virus really ... so so hard to understand it ... i want vaccine for everyone really really fast and hate to see us screwing around with buying it and administering it ... makes me sick