Coronavirus (COVID-19) Discussion Part X

[Joey Hoser]

This narrative that the majority are staying home needs to die

Today’s coronavirus news: New survey says nearly half of Canadians visited with family or friends over winter holidays; Canada’s travel industry ‘in tailspin’ as government adopts new test rules

A new survey suggests nearly half of Canadians visited with family or friends over the winter holiday period.
The poll by Léger and the Association for Canadian Studies poll found 48 per cent of those surveyed visited with people outside their home, compared to 50 per cent who did not.

Not sure how this is even noteworthy. Most people are still going to work. The 401 is packed a 7am like it ever was. I'm about to leave for work to go to a few different workplaces full of hundred/thousands of people.

 

[Auston 316]

This narrative that the majority are staying home needs to die

Today’s coronavirus news: New survey says nearly half of Canadians visited with family or friends over winter holidays; Canada’s travel industry ‘in tailspin’ as government adopts new test rules

A new survey suggests nearly half of Canadians visited with family or friends over the winter holiday period.
The poll by Léger and the Association for Canadian Studies poll found 48 per cent of those surveyed visited with people outside their home, compared to 50 per cent who did not.

Good.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

This narrative that the majority are staying home needs to die

Today’s coronavirus news: New survey says nearly half of Canadians visited with family or friends over winter holidays; Canada’s travel industry ‘in tailspin’ as government adopts new test rules

A new survey suggests nearly half of Canadians visited with family or friends over the winter holiday period.
The poll by Léger and the Association for Canadian Studies poll found 48 per cent of those surveyed visited with people outside their home, compared to 50 per cent who did not.

We did but kept it brief and outside. Not sure how that would factor into their poll.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Not sure how this is even noteworthy. Most people are still going to work. The 401 is packed a 7am like it ever was. I'm about to leave for work to go to a few different workplaces full of hundred/thousands of people.

Not exactly true. I have to drive all over the place for my job and the highways have been far emptier since March. This morning's jam up is because of two trucks colliding resulting in a critical injury which always requires an extensive police investigation and complete closure. Not really indicative of anything tbh.

 

[Pookie]

Yeah exactly. You watch these fear mongering videos. And then put a blanket on the situation. You clearly don't think for yourself and let the media tell you how to think.

You're not being any more empathetic than I and you're certainly not helping the cause anymore than anyone else is. Yet you seem so self righteous that you really think you're "saving lives"

the fact that a woman’s dying words are considered “fear mongering” in your view says everything we need to know.

you shed tears for curbside pickup rules but none for actual dead people.

I’m sad for you.

 

[Pookie]

This narrative that the majority are staying home needs to die

Today’s coronavirus news: New survey says nearly half of Canadians visited with family or friends over winter holidays; Canada’s travel industry ‘in tailspin’ as government adopts new test rules

A new survey suggests nearly half of Canadians visited with family or friends over the winter holiday period.
The poll by Léger and the Association for Canadian Studies poll found 48 per cent of those surveyed visited with people outside their home, compared to 50 per cent who did not.

on the plus side, half of Canadians are prepared to make personal sacrifices for the greater good.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Someone above said that we need to protect the 4.8 million Canadians over age 70. Not sure it is accurate.

780,000 workers is accurate. Includes those that also help maintain the facility.

Stats canada February 2020 survey data says there were 4.5M Canadians over da age of 70 ... no way all of them live in LTC as I know my dad and mom do not ... spit ball guess on my part says likely 50-60% do so probably only 2M living in LTC today ... putting them on an island is impossible as they are mostly immobile and need tons of health care support but there has to be a better way to isolate them for da best interests of everyone else

 

[Pink Mist]

The majority of seniors don't live in LTC facilities. In 2011, 92% of people aged 65+ in Canada lived in private dwellings. In 2016, only 32% of the people 85+ in Canada live in nursing homes or senior's residences.

https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2016/as-sa/98-200-x/2016004/98-200-x2016004-eng.cfm

https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2011/as-sa/98-312-x/98-312-x2011003_4-eng.cfm

We need to stop this narrative that if we protect LTC facilities, we can protect the elderly. Most of them don't live in LTC, we need to protect our communities.

 

[Nineteen67]

The majority of seniors don't live in LTC facilities. In 2011, 92% of people aged 65+ in Canada lived in private dwellings. In 2016, only 32% of the people 85+ in Canada live in nursing homes or senior's residences.

https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2016/as-sa/98-200-x/2016004/98-200-x2016004-eng.cfm

https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2011/as-sa/98-312-x/98-312-x2011003_4-eng.cfm

We need to stop this narrative that if we protect LTC facilities, we can protect the elderly. Most of them don't live in LTC, we need to protect our communities and allow our young healthy people to be productive and live their lives .

 

[JT AM da real deal]

The majority of seniors don't live in LTC facilities. In 2011, 92% of people aged 65+ in Canada lived in private dwellings. In 2016, only 32% of the people 85+ in Canada live in nursing homes or senior's residences.

https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2016/as-sa/98-200-x/2016004/98-200-x2016004-eng.cfm

https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2011/as-sa/98-312-x/98-312-x2011003_4-eng.cfm

We need to stop this narrative that if we protect LTC facilities, we can protect the elderly. Most of them don't live in LTC, we need to protect our communities.

Good to have accurate data thanks so MAX 1M Canadians in nursing homes and elder care facilities

 

[Confucius]

Good to have accurate data thanks so MAX 1M Canadians in nursing homes and elder care facilities

Quite a bit less than a million, maybe 300,000 max.


The Ontario Long Term Care Association is the largest association of long-term care providers in Canada and the only association that represents the full mix of long-term care operators – private, not-for-profit, charitable, and municipal. OLTCA represents nearly 70% of Ontario’s 630 long-term care homes, located in communities across the province. Our members provide care and accommodation services to more than 70,000 residents annually.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Quite a bit less than a million, maybe 300,000 max.


The Ontario Long Term Care Association is the largest association of long-term care providers in Canada and the only association that represents the full mix of long-term care operators – private, not-for-profit, charitable, and municipal. OLTCA represents nearly 70% of Ontario’s 630 long-term care homes, located in communities across the province. Our members provide care and accommodation services to more than 70,000 residents annually.

Well we should take our entire military resources of 68,000 troops and deploy them at every elder care home ASAP except for folks managing vaccines ... and control every person going in and out of each with rapid tests and temp tests ... and stamp out the deaths ASAP .. then in a month deaths will drop to next to nothing and we can resume society even with 3,000-5,000 positives a day

 

[GQS]

And hosting large gatherings, telling people not to wear masks, hiding the truth from them is exactly what you advocated our politicians do and they are suffering worse for it.

We had more than a few 'medical experts' tell us that mask wearing wasn't necessary at the beginning of the pandemic. Also you say hiding the truth and that's exactly what they did with masks because they feared that people would panic and would rush out and buy up all the masks available leaving medical workers with nothing and so some of them outright lied to try and prevent that.

And also how can we take politicians and medical experts seriously about large gatherings when they've consistently been radio silent on protests even the early ones that had little to no mask wearing and most had zero social distancing and yet they NEVER criticised them ONCE during all those protests throughout Ontario and the rest of the country? Somehow having a few people get a haircut or eat in a restaurant is far too risky in possibly spreading the virus and yet all those summer protests with hundreds of people packed together was ALWAYS A OKAY?? No hypocrisy there right?

No. I said you complaining about not being able to take a European Vacation as evidence as to how your life is not back to normal is first world entitlement.

I gave you an open question. You went with not being able to take a European Vacation.

That's just ONE example I gave among many other more serious ones that you seem to always gloss over and don't want to address because you know it affects millions of Canadians and most of it is needless damage and hardship that Canadians will be paying for personally and collectively for years if not decades to come.

 

[Pookie]

We had more than a few 'medical experts' tell us that mask wearing wasn't necessary at the beginning of the pandemic. Also you say hiding the truth and that's exactly what they did with masks because they feared that people would panic and would rush out and buy up all the masks available leaving medical workers with nothing and so some of them outright lied to try and prevent that.

And also how can we take politicians and medical experts seriously about large gatherings when they've consistently been radio silent on protests even the early ones that had little to no mask wearing and most had zero social distancing and yet they NEVER criticised them ONCE during all those protests throughout Ontario and the rest of the country? Somehow having a few people get a haircut or eat in a restaurant is far too risky in possibly spreading the virus and yet all those summer protests with hundreds of people packed together was ALWAYS A OKAY?? No hypocrisy there right?



That's just ONE example I gave among many other more serious ones that you seem to always gloss over and don't want to address because you know it affects millions of Canadians and most of it is needless damage and hardship that Canadians will be paying for personally and collectively for years if not decades to come.

I think you are going to have an interesting debate day on your hands.

@Throw More Waffles presented a letter yesterday sent by over 500 extremely qualified microbiologists, epidemiologists and others who highlighted that aerosol transmission is common and an important route of transmission.

they recommended that high risk aerosol transmission places such as bars, restaurants and gyms meet a improved ventilation standard as part of any plan to reopen.

it’s not safe to be in these high risk places. And they will have to invest in improved ventilation before they can be declared safe to open.

I’ll let you guys hash that one out.

 

[GQS]

We need to stop this narrative that if we protect LTC facilities, we can protect the elderly. Most of them don't live in LTC, we need to protect our communities.

Except you're glossing over a couple of VERY important facts. One is that about 75% of all covid deaths in Canada have been among LTC patients and two despite as you say the vast majority of seniors do not live in LTC facilities, they're NOT dying by the tens of thousands being among the general population.

People keep saying 'Even if covid doesn't affect you, please keep in mind that you might bring home the virus to the elderly and infect them'. Isn't that the narrative the media, politicians and medical experts have been pushing for months after it was found that the virus doesn't affect people under 60 much to keep people afraid and in line? And yet if you look at the facts, if 75% of all covid deaths in Canada are LTC patients, that means of the almost 16,200 virus deaths to date in Canada, only about 4,000 or so have been non-LTC patients.

So you tell me when 3 out of every 4 Canadian deaths are occuring in LTC facilities, in what world would it NOT make sense to make every effort to isolate and protect those facilities and patients? And on the other side of the coin, the fact that we have millions and millions of seniors living in the general population and only a few thousand have died? How does that not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the virus isn't a huge issue when you can have so many millions of seniors being potentially exposed to the virus and have only something like 2-3000 die outside of LTCs to date after almost an entire year of this pandemic?

As I've been repeating hundreds of times now, even seniors who are decently healthy aren't dying by the tens of thousands let alone the rest of the population who are largely unaffected and the facts have shown that to be true for many months now and yet we still have our leaders and the media LYING to us as to how dangerous the virus is even to the supposed most vulerable senior population.

 

[Pookie]

I wonder if the influx of hospital admissions will get some people to care when this starts affecting THEIR OWN health?

ICU’s in Toronto are at capacity.

The Ontario Hospital Association is about to release a report detailing that the number of nurse retirements is up by 10-15% this year. Meaning, fewer nurses overall.

And in Hamilton, vaccine administration is at a standstill. With capacity to deliver 2 doses per hour.

The current plan calls for healthcare workers to administer the vaccine and there are very few available to leave the floor.

Only have to look stateside to LA to see that they are rationing who gets oxygen and instructing ambulances not to bring them patients like heart attack victims who do not have a pulse.

That’s what we are trying to prevent.

 

[GQS]

I think you are going to have an interesting debate day on your hands.

they recommended that high risk aerosol transmission places such as bars, restaurants and gyms meet a improved ventilation standard as part of any plan to reopen.

it’s not safe to be in these high risk places. And they will have to invest in improved ventilation before they can be declared safe to open.

So if the virus is so easily passed on, then why are protests still allowed? Even now you still see many people not wearing their masks properly or social distancing much especially when they're angry and getting passionate about whatever they're protesting. But hey I guess fighting for some cause gives you at least temporary covid immunity or something.

Also as I've said before, I don't care about how many people are infected when the vast majority of those people experience somewhere between moderate to no effects from the virus and they don't dramatically increase hospital numbers or deaths. As I said in my post above, even the millions upon millions of seniors living in the general population who are suppose to be the very highest risk group aren't dying by the tens of thousands and are almost untouched as well.

Pretty much if you're not ill enough to require constant care in a LTC, your chances of dying are extremely slim even as a senior.

 

[Pookie]

So if the virus is so easily passed on, then why are protests still allowed? Even now you still see many people not wearing their masks properly or social distancing much especially when they're angry and getting passionate about whatever they're protesting. But hey I guess fighting for some cause gives you at least temporary covid immunity or something.

Also as I've said before, I don't care about how many people are infected when the vast majority of those people experience somewhere between moderate to no effects from the virus and they don't dramatically increase hospital numbers or deaths. As I said in my post above, even the millions upon millions of seniors living in the general population who are suppose to be the very highest risk group aren't dying by the tens of thousands and are almost untouched as well.

Pretty much if you're not ill enough to require constant care in a LTC, your chances of dying are extremely slim even as a senior.

nope

 

[Pookie]

@GQS You keep wanting to focus on BLM protests.

I guess you have an issue with that. This isn’t a political forum.

Those events would be potential super spreader events. Less so than a rally with no masks.

 

[Jojalu]

Except you're glossing over a couple of VERY important facts. One is that about 75% of all covid deaths in Canada have been among LTC patients and two despite as you say the vast majority of seniors do not live in LTC facilities, they're NOT dying by the tens of thousands being among the general population.

People keep saying 'Even if covid doesn't affect you, please keep in mind that you might bring home the virus to the elderly and infect them'. Isn't that the narrative the media, politicians and medical experts have been pushing for months after it was found that the virus doesn't affect people under 60 much to keep people afraid and in line? And yet if you look at the facts, if 75% of all covid deaths in Canada are LTC patients, that means of the almost 16,200 virus deaths to date in Canada, only about 4,000 or so have been non-LTC patients.

So you tell me when 3 out of every 4 Canadian deaths are occuring in LTC facilities, in what world would it NOT make sense to make every effort to isolate and protect those facilities and patients? And on the other side of the coin, the fact that we have millions and millions of seniors living in the general population and only a few thousand have died? How does that not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the virus isn't a huge issue when you can have so many millions of seniors being potentially exposed to the virus and have only something like 2-3000 die outside of LTCs to date after almost an entire year of this pandemic?

As I've been repeating hundreds of times now, even seniors who are decently healthy aren't dying by the tens of thousands let alone the rest of the population who are largely unaffected and the facts have shown that to be true for many months now and yet we still have our leaders and the media LYING to us as to how dangerous the virus is even to the supposed most vulerable senior population.

I really don't want to argue or debate on the validity of lockdowns, but I am curious as to why you believe the majority of health experts, virologists, politicians are lying to us?

What purpose does it serve? While numbers that people post are close to accurate, the majority of people that die are from LTC'S, it's not 75% but close.

The fact is also that hospitalizations are just over 50% elderly and the rest are under 50.

Thankfully with modern medicine, those young and relatively healthy enough recover after hospitalization. But the issue remains that without some sort of mitigation, and when you allow the virus to run free through the population it does create havoc on the health system.

Now countries that previously didn't have tough measures have changed their strategy and are imposing stricter rules.

I find it hard to swallow that every country on earth has just fallen apart and are making poor decision after poor decision, and havn't weighed out the alternatives.

Without a global plot, no country wants to willingly collapse their economy. It's not good business for re-election.

 

[GQS]

nope

About 75% of all covid deaths occured among LTC patients. There are almost 6 million seniors in Canada. So less than 4,000 people in the general population have died from the virus to date even among those supposedly super vulnerable seniors. Those are the facts that you can't dispute even if it doesn't fit the narrative that the media and our leaders are pushing.

 

[PromisedLand]

This narrative that the majority are staying home needs to die

Today’s coronavirus news: New survey says nearly half of Canadians visited with family or friends over winter holidays; Canada’s travel industry ‘in tailspin’ as government adopts new test rules

A new survey suggests nearly half of Canadians visited with family or friends over the winter holiday period.
The poll by Léger and the Association for Canadian Studies poll found 48 per cent of those surveyed visited with people outside their home, compared to 50 per cent who did not.

Hospitals risk being overwhelmed because of holiday COVID-19 rule-breakers

Well when "triage" becomes a reality in Canada then the word "die" will take a new meaning.

 

[4thline]

I really don't want to argue or debate on the validity of lockdowns, but I am curious as to why you believe the majority of health experts, virologists, politicians are lying to us?

It's because that poster is fundamentally incapable of understanding that changing circumstances changes outcomes.

 

[PromisedLand]

I really don't want to argue or debate on the validity of lockdowns, but I am curious as to why you believe the majority of health experts, virologists, politicians are lying to us?

What purpose does it serve? While numbers that people post are close to accurate, the majority of people that die are from LTC'S, it's not 75% but close.

The fact is also that hospitalizations are just over 50% elderly and the rest are under 50.

Thankfully with modern medicine, those young and relatively healthy enough recover after hospitalization. But the issue remains that without some sort of mitigation, and when you allow the virus to run free through the population it does create havoc on the health system.

Now countries that previously didn't have tough measures have changed their strategy and are imposing stricter rules.

I find it hard to swallow that every country on earth has just fallen apart and are making poor decision after poor decision, and havn't weighed out the alternatives.

Without a global plot, no country wants to willingly collapse their economy. It's not good business for re-election.

btw the so called "recovery" doesn't mean full recovery to health. CDC was conducting a study in the US and found approx 25 to 30 percent of people that "recovered" still have lingering health impacts (this includes healthy folks with no underlying health conditions and young people too). This lingering health impact's long term impact is not yet fully known as they will have to follow these candidates for a year or two to form some sort of consensus.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

The article you cited makes absolutely no mention of aerosols being a “primary” method of transmission.

what they said was:

“The evidence is now overwhelming — aerosol transmission of COVID-19 is common and is an important route of transmission”

Pretty significant difference.



Again no.

Amongst their recommendations are masks.

for some reason, “primary transmission via aerosols” and “cloth mask ineffectiveness” is your mantra. It’s not at all what your cited article says.

and in fact, because of aerosols, the article is suggesting that high risk places that are currently under restriction or shut, should have to improve ventilation BEFORE they can reopen.

I’m pausing to wonder if you will take that knowledge forward and focus on everyone in this thread that wants an indoor venue to reopen? If you truly believe in aerosols, then the shutdown of indoor places is justified until they can prove they meet ventilation guidelines proposed by the authors.

right?

or are you just anti-cloth mask and content to get a few “likes” from anti-maskers?

I'm not "anti-cloth mask".

I'm "anti cloth mask misinformation". Exaggerating their effectiveness is dangerous. They barely stop aerosols in the slightest, and covid spreads largely via aerosols (regardless on your nitpicking on their precise wording).