Coronavirus (COVID-19) Discussion Part X

[Throw More Waffles]

Do you think you did a good job of convincing me and others that N95s are the solution to preventing the spread of Covid-19 with this reference you chose?

500 experts signing a letter asking governments to focus more on aerosol spread of covid? A direct quote stating all essential workers should wear n-95 masks? LLLOOOLLLL If that isn't a good source, what the hell is?

 

[Throw More Waffles]

They stopped because 47 days of isolation is all the workers could take. It wasn't sustainable on a volunteer basis.

For us to protect LTC in this bubble of yours... it would need to last for 1-2 years until society reaches the threshold of "immunity."

Now... How about the idea of staying home for 47 days to protect those outside of LTC?

Willing to do your part?

Agreed. Not sustainable on a volunteer basis for free. But something about $240 billion dollars?

It would be cheaper and easier to quarantine ltc facilities where more than 75% of all deaths occurred than all non-essential workers. For heavens sake... a ltc in France did it for 47 days successfully FOR FREE!!!! $240 billion?

"It's too mean to quarantine ltc facilities. So we should just quarantine EVERYBODY!!!" How the hell does that make any sense?

 

[nsleaf]

Agreed. Not sustainable on a volunteer basis for free. But something about $240 billion dollars?

It would be cheaper and easier to quarantine ltc facilities where more than 75% of all deaths occurred than all non-essential workers. For heavens sake... a ltc in France did it for 47 days successfully FOR FREE!!!! $240 billion?

"It's too mean to quarantine ltc facilities. So we should just quarantine EVERYBODY!!!" How the hell does that make any sense?

Your losing it man, go watch the game.

 

[Sensmileletsgo]

the thinking is if everyone is locked down, in 14 to 28 days the virus is gone. The alternative is what we are doing. lockdown 25% of the population for a year or more and still set record number of infections daily.

I think it took Australia 3 months, and they were in a far better situation then us. Plus, their economy isn’t tied to the hip with USA that we are.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Your losing it man, go watch the game.

How am I losing it?

It was not hard for a ltc facility in France to successfully quarantine FOR FREE for 47 days. So maybe the $240 billion Canada has spent on covid should have focused on the locations where 75% of deaths occurred. How is this in any way an outlandish viewpoint?

And that goal should have counted imo.

 

[Pookie]

@Throw More Waffles ,

That article says aerosols are an important route of transmission. Not the ONLY one. Let's make progress and I'd ask you to highlight that ALL routes of transmission are important in controlling the virus. That should end a lot of this nonsense.

Good?

Now, the rest of that article is interesting. Specifically as it relates to your stance on "shutting everything down."

Some quotes:

"With winter upon us, our activities are moving indoors and it is therefore imperative that workplaces, public institutions and individuals understand the risk of aerosol transmission as well as the actions that can be taken to combat it...

... There also continues to be a lack of public messaging at the provincial level to reflect the risk of transmission in shared room air...

... We call on provincial leaders to:

... promote strategies to reduce transmission risk ... through indoor mask wearing even when distanced...

... Engage engineers and other ventilation specialists to develop clear ventilation standards for indoor institutions and integrate these standards into the reopening guidelines for businesses with a higher risk of aerosol transmission (e.g., restaurants, bars and gyms)..."​

So aside from the obvious comment there on masks... to that last point, in order to safely reopen higher risk places like restaurants, bars and gyms, they need to integrate establish ventilation standards and then integrate them into the reopening plan. Meaning that they aren't sure if they can safely stay open right now.

So, the letter you are pointing to... and it seems worthy of discussion... suggests that it is unsafe to operate a high risk place right now.

Good?

 

[Scion]

I'm baffled that you think it's easier/cheaper to shut down the entire non-essential economy than to find a way to isolate the vulnerable. You're dismissing it as being too "hard, expensive, and complicated" and then acting like 8 month economic shutdowns are no big deal. It's too much...

Have you seen his hockey takes? It should come as a surprise to no one that his political takes are what they are.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

@Throw More Waffles ,

That article says it is an important route of transmission. Not the ONLY one. Let's make progress and I'd ask you to highlight that ALL routes of transmission are important in controlling the virus.

Good?

Now, the rest of that article is interesting. Specifically as it relates to your stance on "shutting everything down."

Some quotes:

"With winter upon us, our activities are moving indoors and it is therefore imperative that workplaces, public institutions and individuals understand the risk of aerosol transmission as well as the actions that can be taken to combat it...

... There also continues to be a lack of public messaging at the provincial level to reflect the risk of transmission in shared room air...

... We call on provincial leaders to:

... promote strategies to reduce transmission risk ... through indoor mask wearing even when distanced...

... Engage engineers and other ventilation specialists to develop clear ventilation standards for indoor institutions and integrate these standards into the reopening guidelines for businesses with a higher risk of aerosol transmission (e.g., restaurants, bars and gyms)..."​

So to that last point, in order to safely reopen higher risk places like restaurants, bars and gyms, they need to integrate establish ventilation standards and then integrate them into the reopening plan. Meaning that they aren't sure if they can safely stay open right now.

So, the letter you are pointing to... and it seems worthy of discussion... suggests that it is unsafe to operate a high risk place right now.

Good?

Like I directly said, cloth masks do prevent droplets, so they help in a limited capacity. Never said otherwise. But being that covid spreads primarily via aerosols, cloth masks aren't NEARLY as effective as people like you make them out to be. Thankfully this is becoming more mainstream and the dangerous misinformation that exaggerate mask effectiveness will start to be reigned in.

I don't know how you could possibly read those 500 experts and conclude "If only everyone wore cloth masks my kids could go back to work".

 

[GordieHoweHatTrick]

500 experts signing a letter asking governments to focus more on aerosol spread of covid? A direct quote stating all essential workers should wear n-95 masks? LLLOOOLLLL If that isn't a good source, what the hell is?

Pump the brakes for a moment.

Your source acknowledges that "aerosol transmission of Covid-19 is common and is an important route of transmission," and presents 'control strategies' for reducing this mode of transmission. Notice that one of those control strategies is wearing "effective face-fitting masks," not N95s explicitly. Your source mentions N95 only ONCE and that's in reference to protecting "high-risk" health-care or other essential workers. This is because N95s protect these HIGH RISK individuals, not OTHERS.

So let me repeat: N95s do not filter the air going out, only the air going in, and, therefore, do not do a good job of preventing the aerosol spread of Covid-19. It is why you see hospital staff wearing those blue surgical masks with face shields, not N95 masks.

As far as cloth masks are concerned, this American Chemical Society paper on Aerosol Filtration Efficiency of Common Fabrics Used in Respiratory Cloth Masks found that "the use of cloth masks can potentially provide significant protection against the transmission of particles in the aerosol size range." Furthermore, by combing layers of cloth of with silk or chiffon, these masks can be just as, if not more, protective as N95s.

 

[nsleaf]

How am I losing it?

It was not hard for a ltc facility in France to successfully quarantine FOR FREE for 47 days. So maybe the $240 billion Canada has spent on covid should have focused on the locations where 75% of deaths occurred. How is this in any way an outlandish viewpoint?

And that goal should have counted imo.

The maniacally LOLOLLOLOL caught my attention.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Pump the brakes for a moment.

Your source acknowledges that "aerosol transmission of Covid-19 is common and is an important route of transmission," and presents 'control strategies' for reducing this mode of transmission. Notice that one of those control strategies is wearing "effective face-fitting masks," not N95s explicitly. Your source mentions N95 only ONCE and that's in reference to protecting "high-risk" health-care or other essential workers. This is because N95s protect these HIGH RISK individuals, not OTHERS.

So let me repeat: N95s do not filter the air going out, only the air going in, and, therefore, do not do a good job of preventing the aerosol spread of Covid-19. It is why you see hospital staff wearing those blue surgical masks with face shields, not N95 masks.

As far as cloth masks are concerned, this American Chemical Society paper on Aerosol Filtration Efficiency of Common Fabrics Used in Respiratory Cloth Masks found that "the use of cloth masks can potentially provide significant protection against the transmission of particles in the aerosol size range." Furthermore, by combing layers of cloth of with silk or chiffon, these masks can be just as, if not more, protective as N95s.

The center for infectious disease research and policy are quite clear that cloth masks don't help against aerosol spread.

Special Episode: Masks and Science

It's almost as though there isn't scientific consensus on the matter. People are just choosing their experts and accusing the other side of being "anti-science".

You wrote that hospital workers dealing with covid patients don't even use n-95 masks. My link has 500 experts directly suggesting that they should. If cloth masks work just as well at blocking aerosols, why would those 500 experts suggest that?

 

[Throw More Waffles]

The maniacally LOLOLLOLOL caught my attention.

It was very funny. Deserved some capital L's and O's.

 

[Leaf4Life]

Dude, an N95 mask is not significantly better at reducing the spread of the virus. N95s only filter the air going in, not the air going out.. A person infected with Covid would be spreading the virus to everyone not wearing an N95. It's why nobody in a hospital is wearing an N95.

Lol you're smoking something. N95 masks with exhalation valves do not filter air going out but N95 masks without the valve do.

N95 Masks With Exhalation Valves Don’t Slow The Spread Of Covid-19

 

[Pookie]

But being that covid spreads primarily via aerosols

The article you cited makes absolutely no mention of aerosols being a “primary” method of transmission.

what they said was:

“The evidence is now overwhelming — aerosol transmission of COVID-19 is common and is an important route of transmission”

Pretty significant difference.

cloth masks aren't NEARLY as effective as people like you make them out to be. Thankfully this is becoming more mainstream and the dangerous misinformation that exaggerate mask effectiveness will start to be reigned in.

I don't know how you could possibly read those 500 experts and conclude "If only everyone wore cloth masks my kids could go back to work".

Again no.

Amongst their recommendations are masks.

for some reason, “primary transmission via aerosols” and “cloth mask ineffectiveness” is your mantra. It’s not at all what your cited article says.

and in fact, because of aerosols, the article is suggesting that high risk places that are currently under restriction or shut, should have to improve ventilation BEFORE they can reopen.

I’m pausing to wonder if you will take that knowledge forward and focus on everyone in this thread that wants an indoor venue to reopen? If you truly believe in aerosols, then the shutdown of indoor places is justified until they can prove they meet ventilation guidelines proposed by the authors.

right?

or are you just anti-cloth mask and content to get a few “likes” from anti-maskers?

 

[GordieHoweHatTrick]

The center for infectious disease research and policy are quite clear that cloth masks don't help against aerosol spread.

Special Episode: Masks and Science

It's almost as though there isn't scientific consensus on the matter. People are just choosing their experts and accusing the other side of being "anti-science".

You wrote that hospital workers dealing with covid patients don't even use n-95 masks. My link has 500 experts directly suggesting that they should. If cloth masks work just as well at blocking aerosols, why would those 500 experts suggest that?

Your source does not suggest that all hospital workers and other essential workers wear N95s. It suggests that high risk workers wear N95s. This is because N95s protect these high risk individuals, however, they do not protect others who would be inhaling their aerosol droplets. This is why, at scale, N95s do not reduce the spread of Covid unless EVERYONE is wearing an N95. Is this really a hard concept to grasp?

And just a quick note on the CIDRAP source on Masks and Science: the guest Dr. on the episode has gripes with the way the government and health authorities have communicated the effectiveness of masks in general, and that poorly designed cloth masks continue to pose risks to the user and others. The Dr. also found that those blue surgical masks are far more effective at reducing aerosol transmission than poorly designed cloth masks. And guess what, the guest Dr. also submits that he himself wears cloth masks when in public.

We live in a very complex and nuanced world. The nuanced view is that N95s don't reduce spread at scale, surgical masks are better than cloth masks, but multi-layered, face-fitted cloth masks with an additional layer of silk/chiffon seem to be the best solution at preventing the aerosol spread of this virus.

 

[GordieHoweHatTrick]

Lol you're smoking something. N95 masks with exhalation valves do not filter air going out but N95 masks without the valve do.

N95 Masks With Exhalation Valves Don’t Slow The Spread Of Covid-19

Good to know. The only N95 I've ever owned had exhalation valves so they would not have been useful in reducing the spread of this virus.

 

[HolyCrap]

Good to know. The only N95 I've ever owned had exhalation valves so they would not have been useful in reducing the spread of this virus.

You’re right. I had to get FIT tested for different styles of N95 masks that don’t have the exhalation valves.

 

[GordieHoweHatTrick]

You’re right. I had to get FIT tested for different styles of N95 masks that don’t have the exhalation valves.

So it seems the debate on masks is even more nuanced than I thought.

Some N95s have the desired effect, others don't.

Some cloth masks have the desired effect, others don't.

Surgical masks seem to be somewhere in between in terms of efficacy.

I would agree with those that say the government and health authorities have done a poor job communicating the efficacy of the variety of masks available. I learned more in my few hours on HF this evening than these authorities have communicated throughout this whole pandemic.

 

[Peggy]

Okay, but I had a friend who played hockey with us and he was not okay.

Thankfully that is rarer than your story, but it doesn't take away the seriousness of this for some people.

He is okay. Or he is not okay?
Fine as is they didn't die. I'm not saying people don't get sick..

We live in a strange world where now people aren't even allowed to get ill.
And if they do it's evidence the world should be on lockdown

We can go back and forth with examples. Someone i used to work with got it. He was really worried when he found out, but basically just lost his sense of smell and taste. Said the flu was worse.

 

[Peggy]

Also the idea of putting high risk people in a bubble is a recipe for disaster

Don't need an "expert" to figure out putting a bunch of flammable material together won't cause a large fire when it catches a spark

Yeah exactly. You watch these fear mongering videos. And then put a blanket on the situation. You clearly don't think for yourself and let the media tell you how to think.

You're not being any more empathetic than I and you're certainly not helping the cause anymore than anyone else is. Yet you seem so self righteous that you really think you're "saving lives"

 

[Peggy]

.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

So it seems the debate on masks is even more nuanced than I thought.

Some N95s have the desired effect, others don't.

Some cloth masks have the desired effect, others don't.

Surgical masks seem to be somewhere in between in terms of efficacy.

I would agree with those that say the government and health authorities have done a poor job communicating the efficacy of the variety of masks available. I learned more in my few hours on HF this evening than these authorities have communicated throughout this whole pandemic.

CBC did some testing a few months back on the various types of masks.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/mark...have said,that transmit the novel coronavirus.

Bottom line: use the blue surgical masks.

 

[Sens]

Monster Traffic Jam at 6AM on the 401 during “lockdown” says everything

 

[Sens]

This narrative that the majority are staying home needs to die

Today’s coronavirus news: New survey says nearly half of Canadians visited with family or friends over winter holidays; Canada’s travel industry ‘in tailspin’ as government adopts new test rules

A new survey suggests nearly half of Canadians visited with family or friends over the winter holiday period.
The poll by Léger and the Association for Canadian Studies poll found 48 per cent of those surveyed visited with people outside their home, compared to 50 per cent who did not.

 

[Joey Hoser]

Good to know. The only N95 I've ever owned had exhalation valves so they would not have been useful in reducing the spread of this virus.

It's not black and white. It would still prevent some/lots of the germs from flying out of your mouth all over place.

Even just walking around with your hand in front of your face would be somewhat helpful.