Coronavirus (COVID-19) Discussion Part VIII - The Long Winter is Here

[X66]

You know that works both ways right? There are numerous people in here that clearly don't care about what happens to the small businesses getting decimated right now over restrictions and people dealing with mental health issues, other health problems, etc. because of the same. All some of us are asking for is a measured approach taking into account all of the problems people are dealing with (not just case counts).

People prove they don't care about small businesses when they chose to not follow the correct protocols.

The government also dropped the ball on this from the beginning.

There are many places around the world where small businesses weren't impacted like we are here, and it's mostly because of the two reasons I mentioned above.

I used this analogy before, but it's perfect here. The government dropped the ball, and our people ran with it the wrong way.

 

[TheTotalPackage]

For those who keep saying "we don't know the long term effects of the vaccine" (which they've tested for, but I digress) consider that we don't know the long term effects of contracting covid-19.

This is what I'm not getting. Some will suggest certain lasting long-term effects of contracting COVID despite there being no real history of it besides roughly a year's worth of data, all the while suggesting that there are no long-term effects of the vaccine without having any history behind it either. It can't be one or the other.

 

[Confucius]

Still puzzles/baffles me that there is talk about mandating a vaccine for 14 million Ontarians when 1% of such population has tested positive for the virus in 9 months.

yep and that is since we first became aware of the virus. How many of that one percent are currently infected? Maybe one percent of that one percent.

 

[Golden_Jet]

This is what I'm not getting. Some will suggest certain lasting long-term effects of contracting COVID despite there being no real history of it besides roughly a year's worth of data, all the while suggesting that there are no long-term effects of the vaccine without having any history behind it either. It can't be one or the other.

Tons of long lasting effects, unless months of effects, is not long lasting.

 

[Mickey Marner]

Final note - I appreciate the latitude the moderators here have allowed for people to express their thoughts and opinions on this board.

Take care all

I second this.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Final note - I appreciate the latitude the moderators here have allowed for people to express their thoughts and opinions on this board. There was one in the Winnipeg Jets forum, but it was removed when the play-ins started and they did not want to bring it back. As one of my other favorite teams, I lurk on these Leaf boards, and hope nothing more than to see Toronto and Winnipeg Canadian division final!

Take care all

Shocking really, I had a thread deleted, about Alberta's rinks, being closed, even though the one on San Jose was Okay,
Said no political threads allowed, so I sent a query to mods and zero response.

 

[TheTotalPackage]

Tons of long lasting effects, unless months of effects, is not long lasting.

When I'm thinking/hearing about long lasting effects, or "COVID long-haulers", I'm thinking 5 to 10 years down the road. How it'll cause permanent lung damage, etc.

Months of effects I'd consider more short-term in that the person will eventually pull out of it. I'm sure all of us have had some sort of nasty cold/cough that has lingered for weeks/months at a time.

 

[ULF_55]

Did anyone break a contract and say they won't cover you going forward and still expect you to pay? Because, that would be evil.

Like getting a lifetime warranty from any company.

 

[Golden_Jet]

When I'm thinking/hearing about long lasting effects, or "COVID long-haulers", I'm thinking 5 to 10 years down the road. How it'll cause permanent lung damage, etc.

Months of effects I'd consider more short-term in that the person will eventually pull out of it. I'm sure all of us have had some sort of nasty cold/cough that has lingered for weeks/months at a time.

Shocking we don't know the effects 10 years from now.

 

[Confucius]

Shocking we don't know the effects 10 years from now.

too bad tobacco companies weren't forced to wait 10 years, so that everyone would be informed.

 

[TheTotalPackage]

Shocking we don't know the effects 10 years from now.

That was exactly my point...

 

[kb]

This is what I'm not getting. Some will suggest certain lasting long-term effects of contracting COVID despite there being no real history of it besides roughly a year's worth of data, all the while suggesting that there are no long-term effects of the vaccine without having any history behind it either. It can't be one or the other.

Correct. This should be more than obvious to anyone. But common sense is not common anymore, and becoming less so by the minute.

 

[4thline]

All I can say is that I'm glad that I live in a province/area where I can debate this situation with people that have reason to doubt it's severity due to our success in handling it and my pregnant wife can have an emergency surgery on 12 hours notice (non-baby related, both are doing great) without having to go into an over-run hospital, rather than in a place that's getting absolutely kicked in the teeth.

 

[kb]

We are certainly in uncharted waters here Pink Mist. This is a new situation, and there is plenty of information out there supporting both sides of the argument. The curse of the information age is too much info, and many without a consensus. I am not saying that either of us is wrong, just that there is an awful lot of uncertainty.

I read lots of information on both sides. My brother is a doctor in BC, and I frequently recall my conversation with him back in April about this new Covid thing and he stated don't hang your hat on a Vaccine, as they take 5 years to develop properly, and if the weight of the world is thrown at it....maybe if we are lucky, in 2 years if they shorten the trial periods we could see one that they are comfortable with trying...but you cant rush time. (Yes - the weight of the world was thrown at this for sure). His other comment was if there is anything in less than 2 years, then perhaps the rumors that this escaped from the level 5(?) virology lab in Wuhan - a mere few block from the epicenter may be right and they have already had this vaccine in the works. That is a rabbit hole that I am not interested in going down at all here however....

The timing cant be rushed. That is my concern. We are on a hockey board - for reference, it takes a good 5 years to re-evaluate the draft, and have fun doing a re-draft. Who was actually the best mid-range pick now that time has passeed...was it Perfetti? Lundell? Amirov? Who is better - Matthews or Laine (I'm from Winnipeg and I hands down say Matthews).

We can disagree here, and that is fine. I assure you, if you are comfortable with your research and assessment on how everything has transpired in 2020, and you are willing to get the first batches of the vaccine, then I 100% support your decision and encourage you to do what you feel is best. I just hope that (and from most people who I have had conversations with on this matter do) that you respect the other portion of the population who simply does not feel comfortable with how fast this came out (or completely trust Big Pharma's agenda....there are hundreds of billions of dollars at stake here annually) and respect our decision to pass at receiving the vaccine at this time.

I am not here to tell anyone what to do...I just hope people are making the best informed decisions for themselves and their family members. Take care all, stay safe!!

Final note - I appreciate the latitude the moderators here have allowed for people to express their thoughts and opinions on this board. There was one in the Winnipeg Jets forum, but it was removed when the play-ins started and they did not want to bring it back. As one of my other favorite teams, I lurk on these Leaf boards, and hope nothing more than to see Toronto and Winnipeg Canadian division final!

Take care all

Very well said. Echoes my feelings very well.

 

[4thline]

I think it's reasonable to be skeptic of the vaccine, but there are so many resources which address these concerns if you spend a minute to actually look up them up instead of just buying into panic spread by bad faith actors

I think it comes down to the desire to avoid tangible and discrete additional risk.


Risk of something that is completely avoidable if you opt out is quite concrete. There's a hard line between being exposed to the risk and not. If you expose yourself and are the one out of the 10,000 you made the wrong choice, it's your fault because you could have avoided it completely
vs
Risk of something that you've convinced yourself isn't going to happen to you, and if it does it was outside of your control and couldn't be avoided.

It doesn't matter if the former is a couple of orders of magnitude less risky than the latter, it's more scary because there is a discrete transition where your risk increases infinitely.

 

[4thline]

Still puzzles/baffles me that there is talk about mandating a vaccine for 14 million Ontarians when 1% of such population has tested positive for the virus in 9 months.

So that we can return to the behaviours and activities that would have seen an exponentially higher percentage infected over those same 9 months.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Circular argument. If you're limiting my freedom if I don't take it, you're basically making it mandatory. And it won't be over in a year. No chance. We will be living with this forever like the flu. Coping mechanisms are needed, not quick fix solutions.

I keep saying it...its the new war on terrorism shite they did in the early 2000's....lots of stuff was taken away from you and people were happy to do it. There was an angry brown man hiding behind every corner back then. Remember the Fox news alerts? "We are in stage yellow...be cautious and if your neighbor does anything suspicious..call him in"

This is what we are going to be dealing with for the next 20yrs. There will be media hype over some far flung place having a new virus that might come here....and people will be glued to the tv.

 

[Pink Mist]

We are certainly in uncharted waters here Pink Mist. This is a new situation, and there is plenty of information out there supporting both sides of the argument. The curse of the information age is too much info, and many without a consensus. I am not saying that either of us is wrong, just that there is an awful lot of uncertainty.

I read lots of information on both sides. My brother is a doctor in BC, and I frequently recall my conversation with him back in April about this new Covid thing and he stated don't hang your hat on a Vaccine, as they take 5 years to develop properly, and if the weight of the world is thrown at it....maybe if we are lucky, in 2 years if they shorten the trial periods we could see one that they are comfortable with trying...but you cant rush time. (Yes - the weight of the world was thrown at this for sure). His other comment was if there is anything in less than 2 years, then perhaps the rumors that this escaped from the level 5(?) virology lab in Wuhan - a mere few block from the epicenter may be right and they have already had this vaccine in the works. That is a rabbit hole that I am not interested in going down at all here however....

The timing cant be rushed. That is my concern. We are on a hockey board - for reference, it takes a good 5 years to re-evaluate the draft, and have fun doing a re-draft. Who was actually the best mid-range pick now that time has passeed...was it Perfetti? Lundell? Amirov? Who is better - Matthews or Laine (I'm from Winnipeg and I hands down say Matthews).

We can disagree here, and that is fine. I assure you, if you are comfortable with your research and assessment on how everything has transpired in 2020, and you are willing to get the first batches of the vaccine, then I 100% support your decision and encourage you to do what you feel is best. I just hope that (and from most people who I have had conversations with on this matter do) that you respect the other portion of the population who simply does not feel comfortable with how fast this came out (or completely trust Big Pharma's agenda....there are hundreds of billions of dollars at stake here annually) and respect our decision to pass at receiving the vaccine at this time.

I am not here to tell anyone what to do...I just hope people are making the best informed decisions for themselves and their family members. Take care all, stay safe!!

Final note - I appreciate the latitude the moderators here have allowed for people to express their thoughts and opinions on this board. There was one in the Winnipeg Jets forum, but it was removed when the play-ins started and they did not want to bring it back. As one of my other favorite teams, I lurk on these Leaf boards, and hope nothing more than to see Toronto and Winnipeg Canadian division final!

Take care all

That's fair to be skeptic or have concerns and be uncomfortable of the timeline, but my point is just to stress that funding and resources can expedite things which normally take years. For example, to research and develop a new car, test it, and have it's safety approved by regulatory bodies can take 10 years. However, if they dedicated all their resources and had an essentially unlimited budget, they could easily develop an equally safe car in 9 months and have it approved. This is more or less what is currently happening at the pharmaceutical companies developing covid vaccines. Normally their resources and manpower are split between research multiple drugs in development, however covid has deprioritized all these other drugs and it has become an all hands on deck situation to develop the covid vaccine with huge amounts of funding worldwide to help aid it.

What also helps, is that since the SARS pandemic in 2002, they have already been developing these types of vaccines, so there's already over a decade of research to help guide it as they are similar types of viruses (coronaviruses).

I'm not saying your concerns are unwarranted, just to be open that there are reasons for why this vaccine has been able to develop so quickly that don't necessarily mean that its safety has been jeopardized. Also, of course there are other vaccines still being developed for covid that are still being tested and developed, if the timeline scares you

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

I keep saying it...its the new war on terrorism shite they did in the early 2000's....lots of stuff was taken away from you and people were happy to do it. There was an angry brown man hiding behind every corner back then. Remember the Fox news alerts? "We are in stage yellow...be cautious and if your neighbor does anything suspicious..call him in"

This is what we are going to be dealing with for the next 20yrs. There will be media hype over some far flung place having a new virus that might come here....and people will be glued to the tv.

I've said the same thing. This is the new way we'll react to everything moving forward. That scares me more than anything.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

yep and that is since we first became aware of the virus. How many of that one percent are currently infected? Maybe one percent of that one percent.

I would seriously like to know how the Ontario government calculates a recovered case. I had it in early November...got a call from someone telling me I was ok to go out in public 10days after I started my symptoms. I never got another call...I asked my doctor whether she had to follow up with the ministry of Health...nope. So how do they know? My guess is they just count 14 days after your test and consider it done. Not very scientific if you ask me.

 

[Pink Mist]

This is what I'm not getting. Some will suggest certain lasting long-term effects of contracting COVID despite there being no real history of it besides roughly a year's worth of data, all the while suggesting that there are no long-term effects of the vaccine without having any history behind it either. It can't be one or the other.

Except we do have indicators of long-term effects of contracting covid, and indicators of long-term effects of vaccines and other medications generally present themselves in clinical trials within two months of testing.

 

[Mickey Marner]

I keep saying it...its the new war on terrorism shite they did in the early 2000's....lots of stuff was taken away from you and people were happy to do it. There was an angry brown man hiding behind every corner back then. Remember the Fox news alerts? "We are in stage yellow...be cautious and if your neighbor does anything suspicious..call him in"

This is what we are going to be dealing with for the next 20yrs. There will be media hype over some far flung place having a new virus that might come here....and people will be glued to the tv.

The 24 hour news cycle needs to create news in order to justify itself.

 

[4thline]

Here's a very good read from the main board thread that clears up a lot of the misconceptions about what "fast tracking" meant and how a vaccine was delivered so quickly

Effective vaccine to be made available this year

 

[kb]

We can all take a look at the preliminary information from Pfizer.

https://t.co/ndfwpbPcBp?amp=1

Bottom line is this....

"Among 3410 total cases of suspected but unconfirmed COVID-19 in the overall study population, 1594 occurred in the vaccine group vs. 1816 in the placebo group. Suspected COVID-19 cases that occurred within 7 days after any vaccination were 409 in the vaccine group vs. 287 in the placebo group."

And at the end of all this, they don't even know if these cases are Covid or not? ("suspected but unconfirmed").

The only thing we can definitively say is that this paper isn't science, as the vaccine's effectiveness in doing it's job isn't even being measured...and even if those cases were to be confirmed, it seems to be doing a rather poor job.

Wonder why they didn't want to confirm if a vaccine for Covid actually has an effect on CONFIRMED Covid cases? Seems like this should be the whole point of the trials, no?

 

[Sens]

Government going down
Hudson’s Bay takes Ontario government to court in bid to ease retail lockdowns