Chloe Primarano becomes the first female to be selected in the WHL Bantam Draft

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That argument is a lot weaker (golf is extremely physical) and there's a pretty good paper on horse racing that offers a different view there. I do find the argument that the way the sports is designed is quite damaging to men competing compelling and would be interested to read more on that.

You also have chess that has a similar gatekeeping effect - Women have reached the higher rankings but in far less numbers - but in horse dressage for example, women are typically dominating. It's difficult to pinpoint a clear advantage there and these sports also are historically more class bounded - yet no one rational would say higher social classes are guaranteed to be intrinsically better at those sports now. But access skews those numbers.

10 years ago, Hayley Wickenheiser was past trying to play in men's league, Michelle Wie was still trying to make it in the PGA tour. 50 years ago tennis did the battle of the sexes thing. 50 years ago in football crazy countries women were banned by law to play it.

Those issues have always happen since women and men were separated, and said separation is, well, also a clear social agenda with an established narrative. While yes, women and men in riskier contact sports - like hockey or boxing - is not the idea of the century and even so beyond fringe at best, trying to push this as one side having the social agenda is historically inaccurate. You can present perfectly fine arguments without relying to that.

Of course in this thread, the one person that strongly pushed for that view in hockey stopped talking three months ago and it has not stopped people from circlejerking but.
To Hayley's credit, she wasn't "trying" to play in a men's league. She legitimately did play three seasons of mens pro/semi-pro hockey. We can debate the quality of competition in second- and third-tier Finnish pro hockey or third and fourth-tier Swedish pro hockey, but the fact is that those leagues are filled with tons of players that played in the top Finnish and Swedish junior leagues and compensate their players as legitimate pro/semi-pro leagues. At worst, it's a Junior A-level of hockey.

The absolute best of the best female players have proven that they can hang with the bottom of the men's hockey pyramid - e.g. look at the handful of female goalies that were regulars at the Jr. A level (e.g. Shannon Szabados being the AJHL goalie of the year in the 00s) and have played games at the SPHL/CHL/WCHL-levels without looking too out of place.

For me, that's the whole crux of the issue with Chloe Primarano. We're not talking about the law of averages. With her level of dominance over her female peers, is she a generational female hockey player that can actually handle men's hockey? If she is the next coming of Wickenheiser or Ruggiero, she should be given a chance to at least give the men's game a try without judgement to see if she can continue to elevate the women's game.
 
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That argument is a lot weaker (golf is extremely physical) and there's a pretty good paper on horse racing that offers a different view there. I do find the argument that the way the sports is designed is quite damaging to men competing compelling and would be interested to read more on that.

You also have chess that has a similar gatekeeping effect - Women have reached the higher rankings but in far less numbers - but in horse dressage for example, women are typically dominating. It's difficult to pinpoint a clear advantage there and these sports also are historically more class bounded - yet no one rational would say higher social classes are guaranteed to be intrinsically better at those sports now. But access skews those numbers.

10 years ago, Hayley Wickenheiser was past trying to play in men's league, Michelle Wie was still trying to make it in the PGA tour. 50 years ago tennis did the battle of the sexes thing. 50 years ago in football crazy countries women were banned by law to play it.

Those issues have always happen since women and men were separated, and said separation is, well, also a clear social agenda with an established narrative. While yes, women and men in riskier contact sports - like hockey or boxing - is not the idea of the century and even so beyond fringe at best, trying to push this as one side having the social agenda is historically inaccurate. You can present perfectly fine arguments without relying to that.

Of course in this thread, the one person that strongly pushed for that view in hockey stopped talking three months ago and it has not stopped people from circlejerking but.
Ackschually
 
To be fair though as per the article



Still the pint stands.

On a side note I wonder how the new woman's league will fare and what the media and public support will be and if woman can end up making a living playing hockey, the jury is still out on that one I think.


They're the fifth ranked WOMENS national team on the planet.

They got lashed 7-0 by 15 yos.

Team USA women's hockey team (along w Canada a DREAM TEAM of women's hockey players) lost to MN high school Warroad boys.
 
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They're the fifth ranked WOMENS national team on the planet.

They got lashed 7-0 by 15 yos.

Team USA women's hockey team (along w Canada a DREAM TEAM of women's hockey players) lost to MN high school Warroad boys.
Yup. We shouldn’t be comparing women’s hockey with men’s. The women’s game is just fine on its own.
 
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Everyone as this is a hockey prospects forum where at the very least no one is qualified to talk about the topic of women athletes in men's sports. It's a deep topic that needs to factor in everything from biology to societal impacts to how much money girls see while developing in sports vs how boys develop in sports. Anyone here have that dissertation ready? No then why are you talking about something you don't know anything about.

She intends to go to the University of Minnesota's women's hockey team. It's not a question of if she can play men's hockey as she's not intending to see if she can so why is this the topic of a prospect thread of her? Possibly the best prospect in women's hockey easily challenging Nela Lopušanová for the top spot and we're talking about hypotheticals based on at best surface level knowledge of the subject. Just so silly.
Eh, the results are pretty ironclad, it's the conclusions we draw that are up for debate.

Women and men are evolutionarily designed to compliment each other for the propagation of the species. So men being better at some things doesn't negate the fact that women are also better at lot's of things like social awareness, nurturing, and inclusion (speaking very broadly here of course).

The fact that we live in a patriarchy means that the things that men thrive at get an outsized level of shine, but our society also suffers for that.

We exist in an ugly capitalist system where Elon Musk shows what a useless dipshit he is daily, while clearly not caring that there are millions of starving children in the world. He's ugly inside and out, and is very similar to most billionaires. Yet these propagators of a human rights debacle have tons and tons of unpaid sycophants because they have controlled the narrative so much that society prizes the ability to make money over the ability to create community, love, and harmony in this world.

Arguing that women can physically compete with men in contact sports just isn't based in reality, but that doesn't say that women aren't every bit as important as men.

And to be clear, my evolutionary statements are intentionally blanketed for the purpose of this discussion and not meant to exclude gay or trans folks.
 
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They're the fifth ranked WOMENS national team on the planet.

They got lashed 7-0 by 15 yos.

Team USA women's hockey team (along w Canada a DREAM TEAM of women's hockey players) lost to MN high school Warroad boys.
Like I said I'm in agreement although I have no idea on how many of their top players weren't in the game.

Really the 5th best woman's teams doesn't mean very much at this point either does it?

Also in 2022 they were ranked 12th in the world so it doesn't mean very much.

Okay I checked the article was for 2016 when it was still basically a couple of teams at the top and tons of variance after that.

Furthermore it stated this in the original article

“At this stage in their preparation, obviously the Matildas are not in a position to play regular games so I'd suggest all and sundry were a little bit rusty.

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But it would be better if this thread was about the actual player and not the general discussion of male hockey players vastly moving ahead of female ones in their mid to late teens right?

Chloe is basically lapping the league in scoring with a line of 13-23-26-49 leading in all 3 categories as a 16 year old defender.

As far as female prospects go she is one to watch.
 
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Like I said I'm in agreement although I have no idea on how many of their top players weren't in the game.

Really the 5th best woman's teams doesn't mean very much at this point either does it?

Also in 2022 they were ranked 12th in the world so it doesn't mean very much.

Okay I checked the article was for 2016 when it was still basically a couple of teams at the top and tons of variance after that.

Furthermore it stated this in the original article



[TABLE=collapse]
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But it would be better if this thread was about the actual player and not the general discussion of male hockey players vastly moving ahead of female ones in their mid to late teens right?

Chloe is basically lapping the league in scoring with a line of 13-23-26-49 leading in all 3 categories as a 16 year old defender.

As far as female prospects go she is one to watch.

Yes. The team that drafted her is to blame here. They are the ones who have dragged her into their posturing.

What this boils down to is a publicity stunt. Whatever happened to Rheaume after the lightning publicity stunt?

Like I said I'm in agreement although I have no idea on how many of their top players weren't in the game.

Really the 5th best woman's teams doesn't mean very much at this point either does it?

Also in 2022 they were ranked 12th in the world so it doesn't mean very much.

Okay I checked the article was for 2016 when it was still basically a couple of teams at the top and tons of variance after that.

Furthermore it stated this in the original article



[TABLE=collapse]
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[TD]2022*[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
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[TD]2021[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
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[TD]7[/TD]
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[TD]9[/TD]
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[TD]2012[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD]2011[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[/TR]
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[TD]2010[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


But it would be better if this thread was about the actual player and not the general discussion of male hockey players vastly moving ahead of female ones in their mid to late teens right?

Chloe is basically lapping the league in scoring with a line of 13-23-26-49 leading in all 3 categories as a 16 year old defender.

As far as female prospects go she is one to watch.


Doesn't matter if it was their third best lineup.


If USA men's basketball or Canada men's national hockey team sent their third best roster (or even fourth or fifth best) what do you think they would do to 15 yo girls? Or what would they do against the best women's team on earth?
 
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Yes. The team that drafted her is to blame here. They are the ones who have dragged her into their posturing.

What this boils down to is a publicity stunt. Whatever happened to Rheaume after the lightning publicity stunt?

Chloe Primerano had a really good U15 season and is a very talented player. Doesn't hurt to use a draft pick just in case it does work out. You know Google is free right? Rheaume continued to play men's pro hockey after the Tampa exhibition game.
 
Opened this thread expecting an update on her current situation. See page upon page of male vs female sports discussion. Couldn't that be done in a dedicated thread?

Taking away the spotlight from a woman though is just too tempting. Why not fill pages of the thread with non-educated debate about a topic I bet 99.9% of the people in here have no qualifications to discuss. Imagine being on a hockey prospects forum and trying to talk about a complex topic like this.
 
Chloe Primerano had a really good U15 season and is a very talented player. Doesn't hurt to use a draft pick just in case it does work out.

Primerano could be the greatest woman ever to lace up.

It's not about her as I think many in this thread agree. It's about this team, being smart asses and dragging this girl into their publicity scheme.

This team could have drafted a Minnesota high school (or bantam) player and it would have been a smarter use of their pick.

Just my 2 cents.
 
Chloe Primerano had a really good U15 season and is a very talented player. Doesn't hurt to use a draft pick just in case it does work out. You know Google is free right? Rheaume continued to play men's pro hockey after the Tampa exhibition game.

And honestly, team USA women (arguably the best women team on earth - it's either or Canada) getting beat by Warroad Minnesota boys high school is a really bad look. Honestly even a worse look than Aussie women football getting tarred and feathered by Tottenham 15u.
 
Primerano could be the greatest woman ever to lace up.

It's not about her as I think many in this thread agree. It's about this team, being smart asses and dragging this girl into their publicity scheme.

This team could have drafted a Minnesota high school (or bantam) player and it would have been a smarter use of their pick.

Just my 2 cents.

She was taken in the 13th round after finishing 2nd on her U15 team in scoring among defenders. The 1st and 3rd place defenders in points went in the 4th and 10th round of the draft. It's a 13th round pick who freaking cares if it was a waste or not. You know almost 300 14yo players with WHL potential? Does anyone? Literally doesn't hurt to throw a draft pick her way and see what happens. If anything it's a team acknowledging the work she's done up to that point which once again is not a bad thing as once you get to the later rounds it's really just playing the lottery. Every single year teams take players that don't have a chance at making it in the later rounds but no one cares because it doesn't matter.

And honestly, team USA women (arguably the best women team on earth - it's either or Canada) getting beat by Warroad Minnesota boys high school is a really bad look. Honestly even a worse look than Aussie women football getting tarred and feathered by Tottenham 15u.

I'm sure the funding and development was completely the same for all those players as they developed to ensure that any games between the two are properly controlled experiments with no outside factors coming into effect. Have a dissertation that's been peer reviewed?
 
Everyone as this is a hockey prospects forum where at the very least no one is qualified to talk about the topic of women athletes in men's sports. It's a deep topic that needs to factor in everything from biology to societal impacts to how much money girls see while developing in sports vs how boys develop in sports. Anyone here have that dissertation ready? No then why are you talking about something you don't know anything about.

She intends to go to the University of Minnesota's women's hockey team. It's not a question of if she can play men's hockey as she's not intending to see if she can so why is this the topic of a prospect thread of her? Possibly the best prospect in women's hockey easily challenging Nela Lopušanová for the top spot and we're talking about hypotheticals based on at best surface level knowledge of the subject. Just so silly.
This may be the worst post I've seen on this site in a long time.

This is a hockey forum and the topic of hockey and gender is certainly relevant.

You do not need a graduate degree in Biology to be able to speak competently on the subject. The physical differences in Men & Women is pretty basic and settled science. The anecdotal evidence is also abundant and almost universally follows the biological. Many for things with much less scientific consensus are debated on this forum regularly.

The only thing left for interpretation is the social values side of the subject and that is definitionally a subjective thing where everyone is entitled to an opinion and this is certainly the place to voice it - considering the subject. You seem to be making an "Argument of (a lack of) Authority" which is fallacious on face value.

All I read into your post is "I am uncomfortable with your opinion but have no good argument against it, so I would prefer you didn't voice it". An increasingly popular but ever dangerous sentiment.
 
Now, to make a point, we all I think agree that russians or chinese for example are not dumb, right? They have one of the top scientific programmes in the World. Yet, experts from Russia for example do not agree with american experts on topics like gender. Who is right? Well, you can say that russian scientists are influenced by the political agenda of their State, and it is true, but american expert community doesn't exist in vacuum either. I am not equating the situations in Russia and USA but the point stands.

What is needed is not a phd reviewed dissertation which can have an agenda behind it, but an actual example case, of a female athlete doing well in a male league.

Now, I agree with the sentiment that it is not the correct way, and this push of the best female players to go to male leagues is not right thing to do. Womens Voleyball for example is quite popular on its own, why hockey can't?

I am also not sure, how you can hold this "unless you are an expert don't speak" attitude and support democracy. I guess some Huxleyesque technocratic distopia is your ideal. It is a dangerous worldview.
 
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This may be the worst post I've seen on this site in a long time.

This is a hockey forum and the topic of hockey and gender is certainly relevant.

You do not need a graduate degree in Biology to be able to speak competently on the subject. The physical differences in Men & Women is pretty basic and settled science. The anecdotal evidence is also abundant and almost universally follows the biological. Many for things with much less scientific consensus are debated on this forum regularly.

The only thing left for interpretation is the social values side of the subject and that is definitionally a subjective thing where everyone is entitled to an opinion and this is certainly the place to voice it - considering the subject. You seem to be making an "Argument of (a lack of) Authority" which is fallacious on face value.

All I read into your post is "I am uncomfortable with your opinion but have no good argument against it, so I would prefer you didn't voice it". An increasingly popular but ever dangerous sentiment.

Worst post you've ever seen? Did you literally just join before posting this?

Yeah no. It's not relevant especially for this forum which is extremely male dominated and is not an accurate representation of the hockey community. Even if gender were relevant a group made up almost entirely of men who are uneducated in the subject talking about gender in hockey makes as much sense as those same men talking about pregnancy.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion and is allowed to speak it as long as they stay to the TOS agreement yeah that's pretty obvious. The more advanced a subject though the less the opinion of your average person matters. Anything biological/medical I'm not going to an average person for their opinion. I'll listen and then I'll go find someone who is actually educated in the subject to know the truth. Y'all are welcome to continue talking about an irrelevant subject in a thread, everyone else is also entitled to their opinions about the discussion featuring people who have not proven to have studied in the field and have any sort of higher education related to it. The dangerous sentiment is believing the average person's opinion is just as valid as someone who actually does work in the field and when making an argument of authority yeah it kind of matters in this instance considering the amount work you have to go through to thoroughly understand these type of topics. That or you're really overestimating the education you get in high school.

This should be relatively easy to find out the answer though right? Just find a large sample size of girl and boy hockey players who all receive the same amount of funding, development, opportunities, same social challenges, and we'll know if it's possible or why it's not. You control for all those factors and there will be no more doubts.
 
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Wtf is going on in this thread?

They picked her with one of the latest picks in the draft, give her a shot and motivate her and see how it goes. Yes we all know men have more muscle mass and are more athletic than women in general, nobody disputes this. But maybe the top 0.00001% of women can hang it with men, if so, let them try and grow the sport. It’s not that deep, people.
 
Really weird question. I don't know anything about the subject of general Russian intelligence so I'm not going to say anything and look like an ass.



Worst post you've ever seen? Did you literally just join before posting this?

Yeah no. It's not relevant especially for this forum which is extremely male dominated and is not an accurate representation of the hockey community. Even if gender were relevant a group made up almost entirely of men who are uneducated in the subject talking about gender in hockey makes as much sense as those same men talking about pregnancy.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion and is allowed to speak it as long as they stay to the TOS agreement yeah that's pretty obvious. The more advanced a subject though the less the opinion of your average person matters. Anything biological/medical I'm not going to an average person for their opinion. I'll listen and then I'll go find someone who is actually educated in the subject to know the truth. Y'all are welcome to continue talking about an irrelevant subject in a thread, everyone else is also entitled to their opinions about the discussion featuring people who have not proven to have studied in the field and have any sort of higher education related to it. The dangerous sentiment is believing the average person's opinion is just as valid as someone who actually does work in the field and when making an argument of authority yeah it kind of matters in this instance considering the amount work you have to go through to thoroughly understand these type of topics. That or you're really overestimating the education you get in high school.

This should be relatively easy to find out the answer though right? Just find a large sample size of girl and boy hockey players who all receive the same amount of funding, development, opportunities, same social challenges, and we'll know if it's possible or why it's not. You control for all those factors and there will be no more doubts.


Please. Your insinuation that since women haven't had funding for as long as men, therefore 50-100 years from now then we can make a "educated" view on the matter is just nonsense.

Look at track. Look at womens 50m or 100m versus men. Or any other barometer. You just can't accept that there are biological differences, and if any of us say there are, and there is example after example of the biological differences, you don't seem to like that. No.
 
Wtf is going on in this thread?

They picked her with one of the latest picks in the draft, give her a shot and motivate her and see how it goes. Yes we all know men have more muscle mass and are more athletic than women in general, nobody disputes this. But maybe the top 0.00001% of women can hang it with men, if so, let them try and grow the sport. It’s not that deep, people.
We do not take issue with the girl. We take issue with this team posturing for publicity.


Let me ask you an honest question: Do you think a female could EVER make it to the NHL? And let me take that further, someone who is NOT a goalie?


Have you watched NCAA women's hockey lately? I have. There was not one girl out there that could even hack D3 NCAA mens hockey. Much less anything higher than that.
 
We do not take issue with the girl. We take issue with this team posturing for publicity.


Let me ask you an honest question: Do you think a female could EVER make it to the NHL? And let me take that further, someone who is NOT a goalie?


Have you watched NCAA women's hockey lately? I have. There was not one girl out there that could even hack D3 NCAA mens hockey. Much less anything higher than that.
No, probably not. But maybe there’s a woman who is a genetic freak and has a skill level so insanely above everyone else that she can make it as a 3rd line skill player who plays at the perimeter, for a few seasons. I’m not going to pretend like it’s impossible. There are female powerlifters that can bench 200lbs and deadlift 400lbs, which is more than pretty much every 18 year old drafted into the NHL and probably more than a solid chunk of smaller NHL guys. I guarantee you Stefanie Cohen could beat the shit out of Zach Benson, and Benson is a solid NHL player right now.

So, is it highly improbable? Yes, because of biological differences. Is it impossible? No, Because outliers exist. If you don’t understand that, you don’t understand biology nearly as well as you think you do.
 
No, probably not. But maybe there’s a woman who is a genetic freak and has a skill level so insanely above everyone else that she can make it as a 3rd line skill player who plays at the perimeter, for a few seasons. I’m not going to pretend like it’s impossible. There are female bodybuilders that can bench 200lbs and deadlift 400lbs, which is more than pretty much every 18 year old drafted into the NHL and probably more than a solid chunk of smaller NHL guys. I guarantee you Stefanie Cohen could beat the shit out of Zach Benson, and Benson is a solid NHL player right now.

So, is it highly improbable? Yes, because wot biological differences. Is it impossible? No, Because outliers exist. If you don’t understand that, you don’t understand biology nearly as well as you think you do.

Or I just know the game well enough.

I have heard people insinuate a woman could also make it to the NFL. I am truly sorry to inform you but, like the NHL, there will never be a (legitimate - not a sideshow like Rheaume was to sell tickets) female in NHL or NFL. And I would wager my house on there.
 
Or I just know the game well enough.

I have heard people insinuate a woman could also make it to the NFL. I am truly sorry to inform you but, like the NHL, there will never be a (legitimate - not a sideshow like Rheaume was to sell tickets) female in NHL or NFL. And I would wager my house on there.
You can wager whatever you want and claim to know things all you want, it’s just not any sort of tangible argument.

I didn’t say anything about the NFL so I don’t know why you brought that up - it’s a way more physical sport and almost all NFL players would smash NHL players to pieces because they are on average much bigger, since the sport demands that.
Hockey is getting less and less physical and faster and faster, and if a woman can deadlift 550 lbs, which almost zero current NHL players can do, I’m not sure why a woman can’t also have the strength and speed necessary to make the league. I’d give it a one in a million chance, and I probably won’t live to see it, but to imply it’s literally impossible is just dumb.
 
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You can wager whatever you want and claim to know things all you want, it’s just not any sort of tangible argument.

I didn’t say anything about the NFL so I don’t know why you brought that up - it’s a way more physical sport and almost all NFL players would smash NHL players to pieces because they are on average much bigger, since the sport demands that.
Hockey is getting less and less physical and faster and faster, and if a woman can deadlift 550 lbs, which almost zero current NHL players can do, I’m not sure why a woman can’t also have the strength and speed necessary to make the league. I’d give it a one in a million chance, and I probably won’t live to see it, but to imply it’s literally impossible is just dumb.


I've plYed with and against women, and with and against boys who went on to p
You can wager whatever you want and claim to know things all you want, it’s just not any sort of tangible argument.

I didn’t say anything about the NFL so I don’t know why you brought that up - it’s a way more physical sport and almost all NFL players would smash NHL players to pieces because they are on average much bigger, since the sport demands that.
Hockey is getting less and less physical and faster and faster, and if a woman can deadlift 550 lbs, which almost zero current NHL players can do, I’m not sure why a woman can’t also have the strength and speed necessary to make the league. I’d give it a one in a million chance, and I probably won’t live to see it, but to imply it’s literally impossible is just dumb.

And really the question we should be asking people like you is : why do we even need to see it? Why do women even need to try against men when they have e their own leagues now?


And I absolutely would wager my house that there will never be a legit NHL woman player. I would go further: there will never be a legitimate woman in men's NCAA D3 hockey.
 
No, probably not. But maybe there’s a woman who is a genetic freak and has a skill level so insanely above everyone else that she can make it as a 3rd line skill player who plays at the perimeter, for a few seasons. I’m not going to pretend like it’s impossible. There are female powerlifters that can bench 200lbs and deadlift 400lbs, which is more than pretty much every 18 year old drafted into the NHL and probably more than a solid chunk of smaller NHL guys. I guarantee you Stefanie Cohen could beat the shit out of Zach Benson, and Benson is a solid NHL player right now.

So, is it highly improbable? Yes, because of biological differences. Is it impossible? No, Because outliers exist. If you don’t understand that, you don’t understand biology nearly as well as you think you do.
Taking a female powerlifter and saying she could be strong enough to play in the NHL is a little disingenuous.

She would instantly be a terrible hockey player
 

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