Chloe Primarano becomes the first female to be selected in the WHL Bantam Draft

[TLEH]

not saying it’s likely. Not saying it could ever happen. I’m saying if you wanted to increase the chances the best you could, that’s how you would do it.

 

[Stealth1616]

So the points stands then? If you are a top 2% female who is bulky, muscular, developed, you probably could play in the WHL if you had the skill level to do it.

Look I grew up with guys who were 5'10, 150 soaking wet, who put up over 100 in the WHL.. I know its possible physically for a female to play in that league without a doubt. Just needs to be the correct build and have the same hockey ability as their counterparts.

The best female hockey player in the planet would not be able to hold her own in the WHL.

Before you get all mad about this, the Canadian women’s team plays tune up games against Midget AAA boys (with about 50 %) win record. They played Junior A teams last year I believe and got absolutely torched.

This was also with no hitting allowed. It’s just not a realistic thing to have happen

 

[Silky Johnson]

Ill give a real world example.

In the 1980's & 90's I competed a lot in Judo. While there is a 3 to 1 ratio of Men to Women in Judo it is still close enough for reasonable statistical comparison.

I was pretty good, black belt by 15 competing at the provincial level. Pretty good however is not elite. At that time, many of the elite women would train with teenage boys. I often sparred with national and Olympic level female judokas as a 13-15 year old.

At 14 I would wipe the floor with a heavy weight Canadian National champion (and Olympian) who had 30-40 pounds on me. If fact at some point I would focus on technique when sparring because it felt wrong just "muscling" my way through a match. In tournament conditions, I and 10 other teenage boys in my Dojo would easily defeat any female competitors.

Women's sports are important and should be supported by things like Title 9 but lying to yourself about equality in sports helps no one.

More importantly it is unscientific wish thinking. All studies regarding muscular/skeletal structure, bone density and fast twitch muscle, supported by evolutionary theory support the significant difference in mens & womens athletics.

Trying to push the best women into mens sports denigrates womens leagues and makes them psychologically "less than".

Why not go on to be the female "Gretzky" rather than trying to compete in a men's league where they will me marginal at best.

 

[newfy]

No, because they still lack the bone structure and fast twitch fibers necessary to compete at that level.

Not just physical but men have some natural mental advantages in sport as well. For whatever reason, men have much better spatial awareness than women. Very useful in sports where you have to think and process quickly

 

[austin63867]

The best female hockey player in the planet would not be able to hold her own in the WHL.

Before you get all mad about this, the Canadian women’s team plays tune up games against Midget AAA boys (with about 50 %) win record. They played Junior A teams last year I believe and got absolutely torched.

This was also with no hitting allowed. It’s just not a realistic thing to have happen

Tbh I hate this argument because it only implies a women's team can't beat a men's team, as opposed to 2 men's team in which one has a woman on it. There are obvious gaps between the genders in Hockey but this argument I've never found to support that when talking about an individual player.

 

[Stealth1616]

Tbh I hate this argument because it only implies a women's team can't beat a men's team, as opposed to 2 men's team in which one has a woman on it. There are obvious gaps between the genders in Hockey but this argument I've never found to support that when talking about an individual player.

I mean it’s a real world example of the disparity between the 2.

Let’s say Poulin is the best female hockey player in the world, she didn’t seem to dominate playing Middet AAA/ Junior A.

So let’s introduce hitting and a level above, how do you think she would do in this league? She might look average if she could avoid contact/ not get injured.

And this is all comparing the best female player in the world. At 16-20 a female would have no chance

 

[austin63867]

I mean it’s a real world example of the disparity between the 2.

Let’s say Poulin is the best female hockey player in the world, she didn’t seem to dominate playing Middet AAA/ Junior A.

So let’s introduce hitting and a level above, how do you think she would do in this league? She might look average if she could avoid contact/ not get injured.

And this is all comparing the best female player in the world. At 16-20 a female would have no chance

What do you mean Poulin didn't dominate in Midget? she was 2nd in PTS her year behind Jonathan Marchessault.

 

[Stealth1616]

What do you mean Poulin didn't dominate in Midget? she was 2nd in PTS her year behind Jonathan Marchessault.

Her statline against the AMHL teams:

13/14 - 8 GP, 1G 3A
17/18 - 15 GP, 6G 4A

Doesn’t really scream dominance to me, and this isn’t even close to WHL level - without hitting I’d add.

No idea what kind of league she played in Quebec but I’m guessing they were very young and before any kind of growth from the male side

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Not just physical but men have some natural mental advantages in sport as well. For whatever reason, men have much better spatial awareness than women. Very useful in sports where you have to think and process quickly

The reason is pretty clearly linked to natural selection. Alot of the spatial awareness demanded by team sports would also be very helpful in the midst of tribal warfare or when trying to hunt large prey.

The clearest example of this can be seen in chess, where men have no physical advantage yet tend to be much better than women. There's a reason they have women's sections in competitive tournaments.

Men are also naturally more aggressive, not just physically but also mentally. I read an analysis dissecting the gender gap in Jeopardy performance - they found that men wager much more in Daily Doubles and in Final Jeopardy, even though women had a higher response accuracy.

 

[Lavar Ball]

Kinda sucks that anytime a girl dominates like this in any sport the convo always shifts to "she should play against men" and then subsequently becomes more of a discussion on why she is incapable versus why she is so impressive.

No, she can't play against men. Just appreciate how dominant she is compared to her peers

 

[austin63867]

Kinda sucks that anytime a girl dominates like this in any sport the convo always shifts to "she should play against men" and then subsequently becomes more of a discussion on why she is incapable versus why she is so impressive.

No, she can't play against men. Just appreciate how dominant she is compared to her peers

She might be able to play a bit, she's held her own against boys, but will she be good is a capital-M much different story.

 

[BondraTime]

What do you mean Poulin didn't dominate in Midget? she was 2nd in PTS her year behind Jonathan Marchessault.

No clue where you’re coming up with that, she never played AAA in Quebec, she played AA with the lower level guys (like Marchessault was, taken in the 12th in his 2nd year eligible), and there’s a reason there’s no goal or assist numbers listed, it’s just a number propped there.

 

[nowhereman]

So the points stands then? If you are a top 2% female who is bulky, muscular, developed, you probably could play in the WHL if you had the skill level to do it.

Look I grew up with guys who were 5'10, 150 soaking wet, who put up over 100 in the WHL.. I know its possible physically for a female to play in that league without a doubt. Just needs to be the correct build and have the same hockey ability as their counterparts.

Britney Griner is 6ft 9" and can just barely dunk, often needing a few tries. There's a whole lot more to athletic competitiveness than build.

 

[Garo]

I thought we had some news but it's still a bunch of dudes running circles around biological differences.

Please carry on!

 

[oooooooooohCanada]

Genuine question, how good is she projected to be? Played with boys until 14/15, and is tearing up the Womens CSSHL U18 with almost 4 points per game as a 16yo.

Is she projected to be a future Olympian, best of her age? Or is she just dominating a lower league and there are 16yo girls playing in higher level women's leagues better then her?

I have no idea how good the league is now vs in the past but some comparisons to members of the national team in the same league:

Danielle Serdachny - forward - 46 pts in 21 games, 58 pts in 28 games - as a 16-17 year old, Primerano's stats are as a 15-16 year old, and is a dman.​

Potomak sisters (believe they retired but they flirted with team canada):

26 points in 25 games as a 17 year old forward
10 points in 8 games as a 16 year old forward.

Based off those numbers (I couldn't find many, seems most of the elite women play in other leagues), she looks like she could be generational.

 

[Gigantor The Goalie]

Oh cool a thread on one of the best prospects in women's hockey, a possible generational talent that can be Canada's women's team equivalent to Canada's men's team Cale Makar. Let's just read along here...ah I shouldn't have been surprised.

 

[wetcoast]

So the points stands then? If you are a top 2% female who is bulky, muscular, developed, you probably could play in the WHL if you had the skill level to do it.

Look I grew up with guys who were 5'10, 150 soaking wet, who put up over 100 in the WHL.. I know its possible physically for a female to play in that league without a doubt. Just needs to be the correct build and have the same hockey ability as their counterparts.

To play in the WHL they would have had to be what 17, 18 or 19 to be putting up 100 points in the WHL right?

Let's just use one component speed and then go find me the track meets where the girls winner in the 100 meters measure up as competitive to the boys at the same track meet...you won't find it at a competitive elite level, which is what the WHL is for that age group.

 

[Northerner]

Britney Griner is 6ft 9" and can just barely dunk, often needing a few tries. There's a whole lot more to athletic competitiveness than build.

I think there's only been 6 dunks in WNBA history. At my inner city high school, I would regularly go into the gym and see high school boys dunking. Honestly the WNBA all star teams would be steamrolled by your average inner city HS (American) boys team.

And Aussie ladies national team got flogged 7-0 by 15 yos:

Australian women's national team lose 7-0 to team of 15-year-old boys

Australia’s women’s football team are ranked the fifth best side in world football. So how did they lose 7-0 to a collection of 15-year-old boys?

www.standard.co.uk

 

[TimeZone]

I don't know... my sister played against boys 2 years older than her for the entirety of her childhood and was doing damn fine... up until the puberty ages. It just became impossible at that point and she became a goalie instead.

Yeah once boys start hitting 14, 15 it becomes abundantly clear the playing field isn't even.

 

[nowhereman]

Oh cool a thread on one of the best prospects in women's hockey, a possible generational talent that can be Canada's women's team equivalent to Canada's men's team Cale Makar. Let's just read along here...ah I shouldn't have been surprised.

But who exactly do you blame in this situation? The people with a rational, pragmatic view of biology or those with a social agenda who care more about the narrative than reality? 10 years ago, everyone would have been in her court and this wouldn't have been a culture war issue.

I don't understand why people can't just embrace her brilliance as an athlete without trying to compare her with men.

 

[Gigantor The Goalie]

But who exactly do you blame in this situation? The people with a rational, pragmatic view of biology or those with a social agenda who care more about the narrative than reality? 10 years ago, everyone would have been in her court and this wouldn't have been a culture war issue.

I don't understand why people can't just embrace her brilliance as an athlete without trying to compare her with men.

Everyone as this is a hockey prospects forum where at the very least no one is qualified to talk about the topic of women athletes in men's sports. It's a deep topic that needs to factor in everything from biology to societal impacts to how much money girls see while developing in sports vs how boys develop in sports. Anyone here have that dissertation ready? No then why are you talking about something you don't know anything about.

She intends to go to the University of Minnesota's women's hockey team. It's not a question of if she can play men's hockey as she's not intending to see if she can so why is this the topic of a prospect thread of her? Possibly the best prospect in women's hockey easily challenging Nela Lopušanová for the top spot and we're talking about hypotheticals based on at best surface level knowledge of the subject. Just so silly.

 

[Moon Man]

The best female hockey player in the planet would not be able to hold her own in the WHL.

Before you get all mad about this, the Canadian women’s team plays tune up games against Midget AAA boys (with about 50 %) win record. They played Junior A teams last year I believe and got absolutely torched.

This was also with no hitting allowed. It’s just not a realistic thing to have happen

I would feel uncomfortable as a young man, hitting a woman.

It just isn't right to mix men and women in contact sports, no matter how skilled one is over the other.

 

[Cancuks]

I would feel uncomfortable as a young man, hitting a woman.

It just isn't right to mix men and women in contact sports, no matter how skilled one is over the other.

Even non contact sports like golf, poker, even horse racing despite jockeys being tiny. Still no competition really. Sports is one area where men and women are not created equal.

 

[Garo]

Even non contact sports like golf, poker, even horse racing despite jockeys being tiny. Still no competition really. Sports is one area where men and women are not created equal.

That argument is a lot weaker (golf is extremely physical) and there's a pretty good paper on horse racing that offers a different view there. I do find the argument that the way the sports is designed is quite damaging to men competing compelling and would be interested to read more on that.

You also have chess that has a similar gatekeeping effect - Women have reached the higher rankings but in far less numbers - but in horse dressage for example, women are typically dominating. It's difficult to pinpoint a clear advantage there and these sports also are historically more class bounded - yet no one rational would say higher social classes are guaranteed to be intrinsically better at those sports now. But access skews those numbers.

But who exactly do you blame in this situation? The people with a rational, pragmatic view of biology or those with a social agenda who care more about the narrative than reality? 10 years ago, everyone would have been in her court and this wouldn't have been a culture war issue.

I don't understand why people can't just embrace her brilliance as an athlete without trying to compare her with men.

10 years ago, Hayley Wickenheiser was past trying to play in men's league, Michelle Wie was still trying to make it in the PGA tour. 50 years ago tennis did the battle of the sexes thing. 50 years ago in football crazy countries women were banned by law to play it.

Those issues have always happen since women and men were separated, and said separation is, well, also a clear social agenda with an established narrative. While yes, women and men in riskier contact sports - like hockey or boxing - is not the idea of the century and even so beyond fringe at best, trying to push this as one side having the social agenda is historically inaccurate. You can present perfectly fine arguments without relying to that.

Of course in this thread, the one person that strongly pushed for that view in hockey stopped talking three months ago and it has not stopped people from circlejerking but.

 

[wetcoast]

I think there's only been 6 dunks in WNBA history. At my inner city high school, I would regularly go into the gym and see high school boys dunking. Honestly the WNBA all star teams would be steamrolled by your average inner city HS (American) boys team.

And Aussie ladies national team got flogged 7-0 by 15 yos:

Australian women's national team lose 7-0 to team of 15-year-old boys

Australia’s women’s football team are ranked the fifth best side in world football. So how did they lose 7-0 to a collection of 15-year-old boys?

www.standard.co.uk

To be fair though as per the article

Assistant coach of the women’s side Gary van Egmond admitted his side, who were without their overseas-based players, had been taken by surprise.

Still the point stands.

On a side note I wonder how the new woman's league will fare and what the media and public support will be and if woman can end up making a living playing hockey, the jury is still out on that one I think.