Canucks News, Rumours, & Fantasy GM

[arttk]

Sorry, Jim Benning got fired.

Jim Benning would pay that for Myers

 

[Vector]

-some have speculated the Penguins offered two first round picks and he's heard that as well but hasn't verified it
-doesn't think it was a firm offer but the teams had multiple conversations
-talked on Thursday and Friday about a trade
-Canucks were involved in some of the brokering of moving a Pittsburgh player to a third team; was a requirement to make the trade work
-not sure how the Canucks would get a centre in return; speculates there may have been another team as part of the process
-the player the Penguins wanted to move "wasn't any of the big boys" but was a veteran player who was being shopped to, at least, two different teams
-believes that the Hurricanes and another Western Conference team could have been involved (not clear if this is direction connection to the Penguins talks or another trade scenario)
-says he doesn't think the Canucks are happy that these talks got leaked (heavily implying all this info came from the Penguins)
-there's a lot more pressure on Hextall and the Penguins; the new ownership is very invested
-wasn't much talk with the Penguins about Boeser

 

[Vector]

So from the multiple different reports it sounds like the Canucks and Penguins had worked-out a framework for a Miller trade that involved two first-round picks. Penguins needed to move a player with term off the roster* with the Canucks helping facilitate that but couldn't find a third party. Couldn't find another team and by Thursday the trade fell apart and the Penguins, instead, used their space to bring on Granlund, Kulikov, and Bonino.

I wouldn't be shocked if they reengage at the draft and, depending on how the Penguins season goes, are more willing to take on Miller's contract with increased pressure, 21m in cap space, no key RFAs, and goalie being the only premium position not under contract.

*Rust, Rakell, and Petry the most likely candidates but all three have trade protection. Rust and Rakell are each signed for another 5 seasons, are close to the same age as Miller (Rakell the same and Rust one year older), and nearly the same 5m cap hit. I could see the Penguins justifying adding Miller as an upgrade over either but didn't want to take on a fourth long-term contract (Letang is also UFA after the 27-28 season). Petry has the highest cap hit with the most disappointing season but is only signed for another two seasons.

 

[Burke's Evil Spirit]

No way Petry waives for Vancouver. He was traded out of Montreal because he wanted to go back to the USA.

 

[Burke's Evil Spirit]

Btw, my solution for a right-handed PK center is: Offer sheet Rasmus Kupari at $2.1M this summer.

Either we get a 21 year old forward who is already able to win faceoffs and kill penalties at the NHL level and may still have some offensive upside, with the only compensation being a 3rd round pick in 2024.

Or we force a capped out LA team we're potentially competing for a playoff spot with to waste even more money.

 

[Vector]

No way Petry waives for Vancouver. He was traded out of Montreal because he wanted to go back to the USA.

None of those players were ending up in Vancouver, they would have gone to the third team.

 

[Vector]

Btw, my solution for a right-handed PK center is: Offer sheet Rasmus Kupari at $2.1M this summer.

Either we get a 21 year old forward who is already able to win faceoffs and kill penalties at the NHL level and may still have some offensive upside, with the only compensation being a 3rd round pick in 2024.

Or we force a capped out LA team we're potentially competing for a playoff spot with to waste even more money.

The Ryan Kesler strategy!

 

[Horvat1C]

-some have speculated the Penguins offered two first round picks and he's heard that as well but hasn't verified it
-doesn't think it was a firm offer but the teams had multiple conversations
-talked on Thursday and Friday about a trade
-Canucks were involved in some of the brokering of moving a Pittsburgh player to a third team; was a requirement to make the trade work
-not sure how the Canucks would get a centre in return; speculates there may have been another team as part of the process
-the player the Penguins wanted to move "wasn't any of the big boys" but was a veteran player who was being shopped to, at least, two different teams
-believes that the Hurricanes and another Western Conference team could have been involved (not clear if this is direction connection to the Penguins talks or another trade scenario)
-says he doesn't think the Canucks are happy that these talks got leaked (heavily implying all this info came from the Penguins)
-there's a lot more pressure on Hextall and the Penguins; the new ownership is very invested
-wasn't much talk with the Penguins about Boeser

Thank you for the summaries.

 

[SelltheTeamFrancesco]

Do the Canucks look to trade their first+ for PLD? You would have to get some kind of contract done or at least have some kind of assurance you could get a deal done. If the Canucks could move Miller it would make sense money-wise. Assuming they don't take on a lot of money coming back in the Miller trade.

 

[JohnHodgson]

Do the Canucks look to trade their first+ for PLD? You would have to get some kind of contract done or at least have some kind of assurance you could get a deal done. If the Canucks could move Miller it would make sense money-wise. Assuming they don't take on a lot of money coming back in the Miller trade.

He wants to go to MTL no?

 

[Nucker101]

Do the Canucks look to trade their first+ for PLD? You would have to get some kind of contract done or at least have some kind of assurance you could get a deal done. If the Canucks could move Miller it would make sense money-wise. Assuming they don't take on a lot of money coming back in the Miller trade.

I think people need to get over the Miller trade fantasy. They had their chances during two TDL's and an entire off-season, the odds they get it done between now and when his NTC kicks in this July are slim as f***.

 

[JohnHodgson]

I think people need to get over the Miller trade fantasy. They had their chances during two TDL's and an entire off-season, the odds they get it done between now and when his NTC kicks in this July are slim as f***.

How is it a fantasy when they literally had talks this deadline to trade Miller?



Are you sure you're not the one living in fantasy right now?

 

[Nucker101]

How is it a fantasy when they literally had talks this deadline to trade Miller?



Are you sure you're not the one living in fantasy right now?

It's fantasy because moving out a contract that significant is extremely difficult in a league where most teams are in cap hell, including the Canucks themselves, and the Canucks themselves are in a win-now mode. Those parameters make a trade pretty unlikely. This has been echoed by pretty much every insider when asked about a potential Miller trade.

When's the last time a player with that much money still owed on his contract got traded? Especially one at Miller's age?

 

[JohnHodgson]

It's fantasy because moving out a contract that significant is extremely difficult in a league where most teams are in cap hell, including the Canucks themselves, and the Canucks themselves are in a win-now mode. Those parameters make a trade pretty unlikely. This has been echoed by pretty much every insider when asked about a potential Miller trade.

When's the last time a player with that much money still owed on his contract got traded? Especially one at Miller's age?

Seth Jones?

Bo Horvat? Hampus Lindholm? Jonathan Huberdeau? Matthew Tkachuk? Mackenzie Weever? Kevin Fiala? Not exactly the same but they signed a big extension right after being acquired (basically equivalent as your argument is that big contracts can't be moved).

There's literally more movement than ever before in NHL history when it comes to trades. A JT Miller trade is certainly feasible - we just need to take some money back.

How does it make sense that you're telling other people that trading JT Miller is completely fantasy land when they LITERALLY had multiple discussions/frameworks about a JT Miller deal literally a week ago???

 

[Nucker101]

Seth Jones?

Bo Horvat? Hampus Lindholm? Jonathan Huberdeau? Matthew Tkachuk? Mackenzie Weever? Kevin Fiala? Not exactly the same but they signed a big extension right after being acquired (basically equivalent as your argument is that big contracts can't be moved).

There's literally more movement than ever before in NHL history when it comes to trades. A JT Miller trade is certainly feasible - we just need to take some money back.

How does it make sense that you're telling other people that trading JT Miller is completely fantasy land when they LITERALLY had multiple discussions/frameworks about a JT Miller deal literally a week ago???

They haven’t been able to do it after 2 TDL’s and an entire off-season, I’m guessing the odds of them being able to do it before his NTC kicks in is slim. It’s likely a combination of his contract size, age, and the Canucks valuation of him vs the league’s, plus again the Canucks themselves being in cap hell while wanting to win asap with multiple roster holes to fill

If you believe the rumours, the deal with the Rags last TDL never happened because the Canucks didn’t feel like they were offered enough(valuation difference hurdle). And the rumours out there about why the deal didn’t happen this TDL was either because the Canucks weren’t willing to take on a cap dump that extended past this season(cap hell hurdle) and that the Canucks wanted a Center to replace Miller that fits into the 20-25 age gap they’re targeting(so the win now and age gap hurdle).

I’m not saying they won’t discuss deals, I’m saying that the odds of them finding a deal that works for both teams involved are slim. They need a very specific type of return.

 

[JohnHodgson]

They haven’t been able to do it after 2 TDL’s and an entire off-season, I’m guessing the odds of them being able to do it before his NTC kicks in is slim. It’s likely a combination of his contract size, age, and the Canucks valuation of him vs the league’s, plus again the Canucks themselves being in cap hell while wanting to win asap with multiple roster holes to fill

If you believe the rumours, the deal with the Rags last TDL never happened because the Canucks didn’t feel like they were offered enough(valuation difference hurdle). And the rumours out there about why the deal didn’t happen this TDL was either because the Canucks weren’t willing to take on a cap dump that extended past this season(cap hell hurdle) and that the Canucks wanted a Center to replace Miller that fits into the 20-25 age gap they’re targeting(so the win now and age gap hurdle).

I’m not saying they won’t discuss deals, I’m saying that the odds of them finding a deal that works for both teams involved are slim. They need a very specific type of return.

The last TDL, the thinking was that they could hold on and find a trade in the offseason for equivalent or better value. This made some sense... more suitors... more cap space and the ability to discuss an extension.

They assumed they would get an extension done with Horvat so they could pivot to trading Miller. For whatever reason, Horvat couldn't nail down an extension with the team, so JR/Allvin pivoted to sign Miller instead. Horvat ends up pricing himself out of Vancouver and the year completely spirals out of control. Now, a JTM trade does make sense if the return is appropriate.

There were several reports that the Miller to Pittsburgh deal can still be done in the offseason. Vancouver just needs to find a young centre to target.

It's really not fantasy land because multiple reports have indicated that there were significant talks. It could be a case that the Canucks targeted someone who's on a playoff team, but they don't want to give them up (KK for example).

 

[Nucker101]

The last TDL, the thinking was that they could hold on and find a trade in the offseason for equivalent or better value. This made some sense... more suitors... more cap space and the ability to discuss an extension.

They assumed they would get an extension done with Horvat so they could pivot to trading Miller. For whatever reason, Horvat couldn't nail down an extension with the team, so JR/Allvin pivoted to sign Miller instead. Horvat ends up pricing himself out of Vancouver and the year completely spirals out of control. Now, a JTM trade does make sense if the return is appropriate.

There were several reports that the Miller to Pittsburgh deal can still be done in the offseason. Vancouver just needs to find a young centre to target.

It's really not fantasy land because multiple reports have indicated that there were significant talks. It could be a case that the Canucks targeted someone who's on a playoff team, but they don't want to give them up (KK for example).

So again, the Canucks need a lot of things to line up to pull the trigger. Hence, slim odds. It’s not easy to make a lot of things line up in the nhl. Either you bite the bullet and pull the trigger which they clearly prefer not to do, or you you holdMiller instead which they seem to be fine with

 

[StickShift]

Btw, my solution for a right-handed PK center is: Offer sheet Rasmus Kupari at $2.1M this summer.

Either we get a 21 year old forward who is already able to win faceoffs and kill penalties at the NHL level and may still have some offensive upside, with the only compensation being a 3rd round pick in 2024.

Or we force a capped out LA team we're potentially competing for a playoff spot with to waste even more money.

Offer sheets are a lose-lose prisoner’s dilemma. You nearly always guarantee a retaliatory offer sheet from the same team the next time you are in an RFA bind. You might get Kupari, but you’ll lose Podkolzin. Or maybe worst of all, match an offer sheet equivalent to the Kotkaniemi contract.

The offer-sheet version of the prisoner's dilemma goes as follows: Let's pretend that the Vancouver Canucks (Prisoner A) and Los Angeles Kings (Prisoner B) are both interested in acquiring a player from the other team. The Canucks want Rasmus Kupari, and the Kings want Vasili Podkolzin.

In this scenario—if both teams cooperate, they can simply trade their desired players and both teams benefit. However, if only one team cooperates, they can offer-sheet the player they want and acquire them by giving up minimal assets.

If the Vancouver Canucks only seek their incentive and the Los Angeles Kings do not, the Canucks will offer-sheet Rasmus Kupari and acquire him for minimal assets. Similarly, if the Los Angeles Kings only seek their incentive and the Vancouver Canucks do not, they will offer-sheet Vasili Podkolzin and acquire him for minimal assets.

However, if neither team cooperates, they will both attempt to acquire the player they want through an offer-sheet, and both teams will end up paying twice as much as what either player is worth to keep them on their original team, resulting in a lose-lose outcome.

Just like the prisoner's dilemma, the hockey team dilemma highlights the importance of cooperation and trust in achieving better outcomes. If both teams can work together and find a way to benefit each other, they will both end up better off. In this specific scenario—the two teams would be better off trading each player for one another and not increasing their salaries, than mutually offer-sheeting each other's player and needlessly increasing the salary of both players.

 

[Mr. Canucklehead]

First priority for me this off season is buying out OEL. The fact that he’s been replaced and outperformed by a number of farmhands joining the lineup should be the death knell there. It’ll hurt for a couple of years in particular, but still save us in terms of cap, and not trotting him out there each night.

That, and trading Myers should clear the slate for new bodies to take their place.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

First priority for me this off season is buying out OEL. The fact that he’s been replaced and outperformed by a number of farmhands joining the lineup should be the death knell there. It’ll hurt for a couple of years in particular, but still save us in terms of cap, and not trotting him out there each night.

That, and trading Myers should clear the slate for new bodies to take their place.

Amen! I’ve been waiting for horrific contracts to expire ever since we signed Loui Eriksson. If we can get out of those two deals then we can finally start to move forward with a relatively clean slate. Boeser is overpaid but not to that level and likely also gets moved.

Then as long as this management doesn’t sign any more terrible deals things start to look more positive. There are a lot of steps that could be taken to improve the D and get a third center if management has the cap space and is creative.

 

[Lackhalak]

First priority for me this off season is buying out OEL. The fact that he’s been replaced and outperformed by a number of farmhands joining the lineup should be the death knell there. It’ll hurt for a couple of years in particular, but still save us in terms of cap, and not trotting him out there each night.

That, and trading Myers should clear the slate for new bodies to take their place.

I would rather trade him at 50% retained. I think someone would take him on a deal that's 4 years @ $3,630,000.

 

[SeawaterOnIce]

First priority for me this off season is buying out OEL. The fact that he’s been replaced and outperformed by a number of farmhands joining the lineup should be the death knell there. It’ll hurt for a couple of years in particular, but still save us in terms of cap, and not trotting him out there each night.

That, and trading Myers should clear the slate for new bodies to take their place.

I honestly think there's a chance he may be LTIRetired soon.

OEL had an obvious leg/ankle injury in December 2021. Injured his foot/ankle in the WHC the spring of 2022 which still nagged him during training camp (rumored). Then had an foot/ankle injury again in February. There were reoccurring lower body injuries which were rumored to being foot/ankle/leg related between 2016-2020. Arizona never disclosed these injuries, but it was obvious his physicality and skating took a dive after each injury. His play really dropped off between 2016 and 2017 and has continued to regress each passing year.

The Canucks FO in 2021 deserves a special place in hell for not scouting him or reviewing his injury history. Much like ill-advised move of signing Ferland after it was obvious his body was deteriorating in 2019 with Carolina.

 

[sting101]

Pro scouting was Jims wall of players written with crayons. OEL yep looky there top pairing #1 D

And he was too busy because he was off watching a few junior games to find the next Nick Lidstrom and Cam Neely

 

[Fren]

To think that all the FO had to do was wait one more year and all of those terrible bloat contracts would have been off of the books in Roussel, Eriksson and Beagle. But no, Elmer had to do what he could to save his job. Now you have an absolute boat anchor for the next 4 and a half seasons that you either have to pay heavily to dump or just not be able to contend.

 

[Gurn]

No matter what the outcome of the "Miller" saga; it exposes just how incompetent the new management team is.
1 Why not trade him, when he had 2 posts seasons of contract left?
2 Why not not trade him when he had 1 post season left?
3 Why sign him a year early?
4 why sign him at all, if you are going to trade him?
5 Why sign him to a NTC, if you are going to try and trade him, before the clause kicks in?

lose/lose/lose.