Canucks Managerial Thread II

[arttk]

That is untrue. Linden and Smyl put in a lot of time trying to turn the kid around. Even those that hate Benning and want to pin this on him, if you are Canuck fans I think you should know who Linden and Smyl are and how they treat players and people in general.

Not every athlete can handle the environment that comes with the game and the earnings. Do you blame the GM on every NFL team each time a player has substance problems? Probably not because you would be blaming every team in the NFL.

What does a quality organization do, they take care of their own.
The Canucks management not only didn't do that, they paid somebody else to take Kass off their hands. If they want to claim they only want character guys, maybe they should start at the management level, weed out the blatant favoritism and nepotism.

More on the character front, character doesn't put the puck in the net. If you want character, nothing oozes character like a recovered alcoholic/drug addict. Takes character to overcome that ****.
Kassian if the management would've spent the effort to fix would give us a dimension that is nearly impossible to find. That itself would help us win more than wasting 2.5M on a guy who can't score.

If the management is serous about character, they wouldn't spend so much time talking about wanting to get Lucic. Talk about being contradictory.

Oh one more thing, hate to say this but the Flames are evolving to be a good, model organization.
Ferland had demons and they went all the way to help him out and now they are reaping the benefits not only having a good player but also respect from other players. You think players don't notice when organization go above and beyond to help players even when they are not obligated to do so.

 

[banme*]

Like I said, flimsy evidence for such a damning assumption.

That's what we do here man.

Although, actually, we were (rightfully) angry because people were making damning assumptions about Kassian based on flimsy evidence. In fact, the poster you were arguing with was adamant about this.

But it's Benning, so **** him right guys?

 

[bsjezz]

Here's a very simple question: if it was such an issue under the previous regime - who were willing to live with ZK, issues and all - why did they never healthy scratch him the way this group did?

that's a question for willie D, not management

the coach has made it clear ad nauseum he far prefers to deploy guys who he can bank on to give consistent performances. if they don't play the same game every night, willie has no time for them.

 

[vanuck]

Gillis worked with him for 3 years. Benning put up with him for 8 months before trying to move him. Tell me again who was more willing to help him?

 

[arttk]

That's what we do here man.

Although, actually, we were (rightfully) angry because people were making damning assumptions about Kassian based on flimsy evidence. In fact, the poster you were arguing with was adamant about this.

But it's Benning, so **** him right guys?

We target what the man does, not the man himself. If you can't differentiate that then maybe you should think about it a little bit more.

 

[bsjezz]

Gillis worked with him for 3 years. Benning put up with him for 8 months before trying to move him. Tell me again who was more willing to help him?

gillis never had a situation where kassian was going to be an influence on 5 guys younger than him

look, i loved kassian's game and i feel bad for him. but you have to move forward. linden especially i see has orchestrated this movement to set the right tone in the room, and more than that, on the road. and if you think that the kassian trade and the sutter aquisition are unrelated moves, think again.

 

[lousy]

Gillis worked with him for 3 years. Benning put up with him for 8 months before trying to move him. Tell me again who was more willing to help him?

Or could it be that Benning saw that he had been helped for three years already? Why does he have to give Kassian a clean slate, and wait another three before making a decision?

And this is all just crazy speculation, and I wish you would stop. You are just trying to fuel a fire that doesn't exist.

 

[Toxic0n]

Good point about Rypien. Depression and addiction are both illnesses and often go hand in hand. Can you imagine what some of these posters would have been saying had Gillis dumped #37 because he didn't want to deal with his problems anymore?
For all this talk about character, MG was definitely more loyal than JB. Sometimes to a fault (not asking players to waive NTCs, for example), but he was a class act and a true professional

 

[vanuck]

gillis never had a situation where kassian was going to be an influence on 5 guys younger than him

look, i loved kassian's game and i feel bad for him. but you have to move forward. linden especially i see has orchestrated this movement to set the right tone in the room, and more than that, on the road. and if you think that the kassian trade and the sutter aquisition are unrelated moves, think again.

Kassian played for the AHL Wolves during the lockout season. Lots of opportunity to supposedly corrupt the impressionable minds of our other prospects.

Or could it be that Benning saw that he had been helped for three years already? Why does he have to give Kassian a clean slate, and wait another three before making a decision?

And this is all just crazy speculation, and I wish you would stop. You are just trying to fuel a fire that doesn't exist.

Speculation? I'm going off what I've been told by others...

Kassian's issues went on for 3 years and involve a multitude of Canuck officials from Gillis, Smyl, Linden, Benning and several coaches.

If it was such a big issue how come the previous management never treated him the way these guys did?

 

[alternate]

wow it's almost as if 19 year old Ben Hutton wasn't likrly to push for a job

what a ridiculous spin lol

Hutton did attend a prospects camp with Benning as GM. These usually include some sort of "blueprint" for the coming season. He then had time with Utica last year, and of course would have been given a summer work out program. Your position is that none of that had any impact on Hutton being in the NHL as a rookie pro?

Previous to Hutton, the most successful blueline picks under Gillis to date are Kevin Connauton and Corrado. One variable changes, and now Hutton emerges. Part of it is simply take enough puck moving defenseman with decent size, eventually one will work out. But Benning didn't just walk in the door Tuesday. He's been here over a year. Absolutely he had *some* influence on Hutton's development.

Unless of course you believe that talent is innate and Hutton becoming what he becomes is inevitable and development is irrelevant. Then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

From what has been posted before by someone (want to say Bob Mac, could be some other reporter), stage 1 is still pretty strict. Breaking any of those rules would automatically escalate to stage 2 which comes with a suspension as we can see already with Montreal.

So based on that, I think we know that Kassian wasn't a problem last season, because if he was, he would've been sent to stage 2 no? If he wasn't a problem, what motives are there to get rid of him other than, I don't like him especially Benning PAID to get rid of him.

Maybe they didn't trade Kassian *because* he's an addict. Maybe they traded him because they were tired of getting less than 100% from him? You're the one making this about Kassian the addict. Benning traded Kassian the hockey player. Obviously in real life they're one and the same, but it's not like they're parents in poco kicking their meth head son out to live on the streets. He's obviously still in the program, the Habs were aware of the situation and no doubt have their own support resources.

Sometimes a change of scenery is a good thing. New neighbors, fresh slate.

Kassian had negative value as an asset, and Benning used a pick to acquire a piece for the team he wants to build. Really, at this point, just considered Kassian waived if you feel better. We waived Kassian and Montreal picked him up. In a separate deal, Canucks acquired Prust for a 5th. Benning is investing a mid round pick to help insulate his incoming rookies with solid veterans sprinkled throughout the lineup.

Character is frankly the most overrated "attribute" in hockey. Being good at hockey wins Cups, not character.

Fedor Federov.

 

[lousy]

Speculation? I'm only going off what I've been told by others...

I was referring to your criticism of Benning not caring about Kassian.

 

[bsjezz]

Kassian played for the AHL Wolves during the lockout season. Lots of opportunity to supposedly corrupt the impressionable minds of our other prospects.

it's not about "corruption." it's about habits and atmosphere at any given moment. i think the canucks were a great team for kassian to be on - at the time - because it was a veteran group and he probably had a good support network amongst the team. but with a fresh wave of youth at the door it was time to let him go. yeah, it's possible that this regression to bad habits was even caused by the move back out east. but that's on kassian. you can give a guy support and i believe both gillis and benning extended him that honour, but at the end of the day he's responsible for his own actions, as are we all.

 

[vanuck]

^ Honestly I have no idea what Fedor Fedorov did so you'll have to enlighten me.

 

[banme*]

We target what the man does, not the man himself. If you can't differentiate that then maybe you should think about it a little bit more.

Benning didn't try to work with Kassian: damning assumption based on flimsy evidence.

Kassian is a drunk: damning assumption based on flimsy evidence.

Being ok with one of these and defending the other to the death: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=hypocrisy.

Criticize all you want, but make your critique worthwhile instead of worthless rubbish.

 

[Cupless44]

What does a quality organization do, they take care of their own.
The Canucks management not only didn't do that, they paid somebody else to take Kass off their hands. If they want to claim they only want character guys, maybe they should start at the management level, weed out the blatant favoritism and nepotism.

More on the character front, character doesn't put the puck in the net. If you want character, nothing oozes character like a recovered alcoholic/drug addict. Takes character to overcome that ****.
Kassian if the management would've spent the effort to fix would give us a dimension that is nearly impossible to find. That itself would help us win more than wasting 2.5M on a guy who can't score.

If the management is serous about character, they wouldn't spend so much time talking about wanting to get Lucic. Talk about being contradictory.

Oh one more thing, hate to say this but the Flames are evolving to be a good, model organization.
Ferland had demons and they went all the way to help him out and now they are reaping the benefits not only having a good player but also respect from other players. You think players don't notice when organization go above and beyond to help players even when they are not obligated to do so.

At what point has an organization done enough? Is three years enough??

Because in Montreal they seem far less patient. Bergevin called Kassian out for "his lack of character and judgement" Said "we are professionals and we have to behave like professionals" Bergevin also said that he had spoken very clearly with Kassian after acquiring him in the trade about his off ice behavior in Vancouver.

Guy didn't hold back his disgust. Conversely over a 3 year period of similar issues 2 different management groups in Vancouver kept it very quiet. All Benning said when asked why Kassian wasnt always in the line up was that they need to see more professionalism from Kassian.

As I said, nothing to see here. Time to find new Benning bashing material. I am sure it wont take long.

 

[Aphid Attraction]

Let me just say that I didn't find out Kassian has been in rehab while in Vancouver last week in the media like most here and leave it at that. Some things should not be discussed on here but I have known for a while. I am sure you can find more appropriate topics to bash Benning on. This has just taken the witch hunt to a really low and misinformed level.

It was not that hard to speculate that this was an issue... But just suggesting it was an option for why he was out of favor around playoff time was enough to get jumped on and infractions...

 

[vanuck]

I was referring to your criticism of Benning not caring about Kassian.

Compared to how the previous regime handled Kassian AND how quick Benning was to try and get rid of him, it's not hard to put 2 and 2 together and conclude he really didn't want to deal with any of that.

 

[arttk]

Benning didn't try to work with Kassian: damning assumption based on flimsy evidence.

Kassian is a drunk: damning assumption based on flimsy evidence.

Being ok with one of these and defending the other to the death: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=hypocrisy.

Criticize all you want, but make your critique worthwhile instead of worthless rubbish.

I don't know what issue Kassian has so I have been saying substance abuse this whole time. You made the conclusion that he is a drunk, I didn't.

I list out all the events chronologically and made my argument based on that, if you care to read it then that will make this discussion more worthwhile.

Plus I was referring to the fact all along we've been targeting all the stuff Benning has done, not who he is. So if you want to reply to my message, you should get that right as well.

 

[Ryp37]

^ Honestly I have no idea what Fedor Fedorov did so you'll have to enlighten me.

Had all the tools in the world but thought he was a superstar and deserved everything right away

Bieksa accidentally spilled a drink or hit him with his straw when he first got to Manitoba, Fedorov not accepting that treatment from a rookie walked up to juice and called him out, they stepped outside and Bieksa knocked him out

Why one headcase proves character isn't the most overrated trait in hockey I don't know, but **** Fedor

 

[Cupless44]

We target what the man does, not the man himself. If you can't differentiate that then maybe you should think about it a little bit more.

No I think you guys need to think a little more carefully about what can legitimately be blamed on Benning because this is ridiculous. This is exactly when it loses credibility and becomes a witch hunt.

Yup it is Jim Benning's fault that over 3 and half years in Vancouver Zack Kassian couldn't get his life together despite getting medical help and guidance from Smyl, Gillis, Linden and multiple coaches and counselers.

 

[arttk]

No I think you guys need to think a little more carefully about what can legitimately be blamed on Benning because this is ridiculous. This is exactly when it loses credibility and becomes a witch hunt.

Yup it is Jim Benning's fault that over 3 and half years in Vancouver Zack Kassian couldn't get his life together despite getting medical help and guidance from Smyl, Gillis, Linden and multiple coaches and counselers.

Well that statement was a blanket statement on people critizing Benning for whatever. It's not, we don't. Do you see us critizing the fact he is letting Hutton, McCann and Virtanen in the lineup?

It just happens that he has done a lot of **** that is worth critizing.

One more thing, we don't know how long this has plagued Kassian, to assume that he has issues for 3.5 years( don't really care how you came to this number) is pretty messed up.
Hey if you are going to go that route, why not go all the way and say he has issues ever since his dad passed away, it will make it sound even more dramatic and damning.

 

[Cupless44]

it's not about "corruption." it's about habits and atmosphere at any given moment. i think the canucks were a great team for kassian to be on - at the time - because it was a veteran group and he probably had a good support network amongst the team. but with a fresh wave of youth at the door it was time to let him go. yeah, it's possible that this regression to bad habits was even caused by the move back out east. but that's on kassian. you can give a guy support and i believe both gillis and benning extended him that honour, but at the end of the day he's responsible for his own actions, as are we all.

Thank you for bringing some rationale to this discussion.

I think not wanting Kassian around the young players was a huge part of why this management group felt they had to move on from Kassian. At some point, in this case over 3 years, a team has the right to move on from a problem.

 

[lousy]

Compared to how the previous regime handled Kassian AND how quick Benning was to try and get rid of him, it's not hard to put 2 and 2 together and conclude he really didn't want to deal with any of that.

It is not hard to put your two and two together if you are willing to make wild assumptions. Kassian had over a year to work things out under Benning. Eventually a decision has to be made on whether Kassian has made any progress. Do you know what dialog went on behind the scenes? I sure don't. Which is why adding your two and two is just crazy.

 

[arttk]

Hutton did attend a prospects camp with Benning as GM. These usually include some sort of "blueprint" for the coming season. He then had time with Utica last year, and of course would have been given a summer work out program. Your position is that none of that had any impact on Hutton being in the NHL as a rookie pro?

Previous to Hutton, the most successful blueline picks under Gillis to date are Kevin Connauton and Corrado. One variable changes, and now Hutton emerges. Part of it is simply take enough puck moving defenseman with decent size, eventually one will work out. But Benning didn't just walk in the door Tuesday. He's been here over a year. Absolutely he had *some* influence on Hutton's development.

Unless of course you believe that talent is innate and Hutton becoming what he becomes is inevitable and development is irrelevant. Then we'll just have to agree to disagree.



Maybe they didn't trade Kassian *because* he's an addict. Maybe they traded him because they were tired of getting less than 100% from him? You're the one making this about Kassian the addict. Benning traded Kassian the hockey player. Obviously in real life they're one and the same, but it's not like they're parents in poco kicking their meth head son out to live on the streets. He's obviously still in the program, the Habs were aware of the situation and no doubt have their own support resources.

Sometimes a change of scenery is a good thing. New neighbors, fresh slate.

Kassian had negative value as an asset, and Benning used a pick to acquire a piece for the team he wants to build. Really, at this point, just considered Kassian waived if you feel better. We waived Kassian and Montreal picked him up. In a separate deal, Canucks acquired Prust for a 5th. Benning is investing a mid round pick to help insulate his incoming rookies with solid veterans sprinkled throughout the lineup.



Fedor Federov.

You don't pay somebody to take a player off your hands because he doesn't give 100%.

How ****ing stupid is that?

 

[banme*]

I don't know what issue Kassian has so I have been saying substance abuse this whole time. You made the conclusion that he is a drunk, I didn't.

I list out all the events chronologically and made my argument based on that, if you care to read it then that will make this discussion more worthwhile.

Plus I was referring to the fact all along we've been targeting all the stuff Benning has done, not who he is. So if you want to reply to my message, you should get that right as well.

The poster that I quoted was not quoting you.

Saying Kassian is a drunk (before the recent news came out) was the argument that I disagreed with aka why I called it a damning assumption based on flimsy evidence.

No offence but I don't really have any interest in reading what you wrote lol, you were not the poster I quoted, the poster he/she quoted, or the poster I was criticizing. However, I guess you did claim that people were criticizing Benning for the things that he has done, which is total ********* as the argument I was criticizing by the poster I was criticizing was pure conjecture.