Canucks Managerial Thread II

[arttk]

It is not hard to put your two and two together if you are willing to make wild assumptions. Kassian had over a year to work things out under Benning. Eventually a decision has to be made on whether Kassian has made any progress. Do you know what dialog went on behind the scenes? I sure don't. Which is why adding your two and two is just crazy.

Well considering they were trying to trade him long before the trade deadline and they never gave up on that. I would say they made the mind up about getting rid of him regardless of his progress. And I said this over and over and over again. If he had any relapse, he would've been sent to stage 2. I assume the fact he didn't made it to stage 2 for a whole year = progress.

 

[Win One Before I Die]

What does a quality organization do, they take care of their own.
The Canucks management not only didn't do that, they paid somebody else to take Kass off their hands. If they want to claim they only want character guys, maybe they should start at the management level, weed out the blatant favoritism and nepotism.

More on the character front, character doesn't put the puck in the net. If you want character, nothing oozes character like a recovered alcoholic/drug addict. Takes character to overcome that ****.
Kassian if the management would've spent the effort to fix would give us a dimension that is nearly impossible to find. That itself would help us win more than wasting 2.5M on a guy who can't score.

If the management is serous about character, they wouldn't spend so much time talking about wanting to get Lucic. Talk about being contradictory.

Oh one more thing, hate to say this but the Flames are evolving to be a good, model organization.
Ferland had demons and they went all the way to help him out and now they are reaping the benefits not only having a good player but also respect from other players. You think players don't notice when organization go above and beyond to help players even when they are not obligated to do so.

This guy is just looking for a reason to bash the Canucks. Relax man life ain't so bad. And neither are the Canucks.

You younger guys have been spoiled by almost 10 years of good hockey. You are taking it for granted. You are glad you didn't grow up in the glory years of the 94 team and having to suffer through the Messier debacle. **** ain't so bad these days.

I don't know about the Kassian situation but the Canucks probably gave him multiple chances and he just didn't stop. Hitting rock bottom as a Canuck was probably good it didn't happen because the fans here are ruthless.

 

[arttk]

This guy is just looking for a reason to bash the Canucks. Relax man life ain't so bad. And neither are the Canucks.

You younger guys have been spoiled by almost 10 years of good hockey. You are taking it for granted. You are glad you didn't grow up in the glory years of the 94 team and having to suffer through the Messier debacle. **** ain't so bad these days.

I don't know about the Kassian situation but the Canucks probably gave him multiple chances and he just didn't stop. Hitting rock bottom as a Canuck was probably good it didn't happen because the fans here are ruthless.

Lol I don't know why you assume I wasn't there for that. I watched every game on TV back then, yeah I watched every game possible in a season where we were good enough to draft the Sedins. Honestly not sure how I managed to watch that many games without wanting to kill myself.

 

[Cupless44]

Well that statement was a blanket statement on people critizing Benning for whatever. It's not, we don't. Do you see us critizing the fact he is letting Hutton, McCann and Virtanen in the lineup?

It just happens that he has done a lot of **** that is worth critizing.

One more thing, we don't know how long this has plagued Kassian, to assume that he has issues for 3.5 years( don't really care how you came to this number) is pretty messed up.
Hey if you are going to go that route, why not go all the way and say he has issues ever since his dad passed away, it will make it sound even more dramatic and damning.

And i don't disagree with you that some of Bennings moves deserve to be criticized. I have never said otherwise but this isn't one of them.

Some posters are actually coming across as desperately spinning to get the blame back on Benning after slamming the guy all summer for trading Kassian when they obviously didn't know the situation. It's transparent and pretty weak.

Bottom line. Kassian was not mistreated by any Canuck management during his time here. He was provided help, support and the chance to get his life together. At some point he has to take responsibility for his own life and career.

 

[Verviticus]

And i don't disagree with you that some of Bennings moves deserve to be criticized.

try it. let's hear a few

 

[Intangibos]

Interesting that someone who is apparently a drunk and raging alcoholic never once missed practice because of a bender or came to practice hungover. The one guy who did that, SOB, got shipped out of here because he wasn't taking things seriously.

It sucks that Kassian has problems, it really does, but those problems weren't affecting how he prepared. He came to camp in better shape every year. He showed up, he worked hard. If he drinks too much in his own time, that's unfortunate and hopefully the team could help him with it, but he's here to play hockey.

Call me when he's on the ice drunk or hungover, or is missing practices because he's too busy partying.

 

[vanuck]

Had all the tools in the world but thought he was a superstar and deserved everything right away

Bieksa accidentally spilled a drink or hit him with his straw when he first got to Manitoba, Fedorov not accepting that treatment from a rookie walked up to juice and called him out, they stepped outside and Bieksa knocked him out

Why one headcase proves character isn't the most overrated trait in hockey I don't know, but **** Fedor

Thanks. Not sure how it's relevant considering he never established himself as an NHL'er. Perhaps I should've been more clear.

It is not hard to put your two and two together if you are willing to make wild assumptions. Kassian had over a year to work things out under Benning. Eventually a decision has to be made on whether Kassian has made any progress. Do you know what dialog went on behind the scenes? I sure don't. Which is why adding your two and two is just crazy.

And it was 3 years under Gillis who seemed to be willing to let him work it out here unless you want to completely ignore that. All we know is that the furthest he ever went in the program in Vancouver was Stage 1 and never worsened to a Stage 2. As long as he performed on the ice, I don't see why it was such a problem for these guys.

No I think you guys need to think a little more carefully about what can legitimately be blamed on Benning because this is ridiculous. This is exactly when it loses credibility and becomes a witch hunt.

Yup it is Jim Benning's fault that over 3 and half years in Vancouver Zack Kassian couldn't get his life together despite getting medical help and guidance from Smyl, Gillis, Linden and multiple coaches and counselers.

Still waiting for your answer:

Here's a very simple question: if it was such a problem under the previous regime - who were willing to live with ZK, issues and all - why did they never healthy scratch him the way this group did?

 

[Tinhorn1]

Interesting that someone who is apparently a drunk and raging alcoholic never once missed practice because of a bender or came to practice hungover. The one guy who did that, SOB, got shipped out of here because he wasn't taking things seriously.

It sucks that Kassian has problems, it really does, but those problems weren't affecting how he prepared. He came to camp in better shape every year. He showed up, he worked hard. If he drinks too much in his own time, that's unfortunate and hopefully the team could help him with it, but he's here to play hockey.

Call me when he's on the ice drunk or hungover, or is missing practices because he's too busy partying.

Kassian was demoted briefly to the AHL in his first (second?) year here because of an issue with practice, if I remember correctly. All the way along, every coach he had seemed to be trying to teach him a lesson. He was one of my favourites while he was here, and I wish him the very best, but it really isn't hard to see that there might have been some recurring issues.

If he ever gets things straightened out, though, he could really become an incredible player. He was still good enough to make fans of a lot of us

 

[lousy]

I assume the fact he didn't made it to stage 2 for a whole year = progress.

And here is another wild assumption gem.

 

[Intangibos]

Kassian was demoted briefly to the AHL in his first (second?) year here because of an issue with practice, if I remember correctly. All the way along, every coach he had seemed to be trying to teach him a lesson. He was one of my favourites while he was here, and I wish him the very best, but it really isn't hard to see that there might have been some recurring issues.

If he ever gets things straightened out, though, he could really become an incredible player. He was still good enough to make fans of a lot of us

So 4 years ago a 19 year old had to spend some time in the AHL? You're right, he's donezo IMO.

To be honest, he should have been in the AHL full time back then. Regardless what the problems were then, he never again had any problems and was always in shape and ready to go. The Sedins were healthy scratches early in their careers too, I hope we don't move them for some 4th liners because they have some addiction we don't know about.

 

[arttk]

And here is another wild assumption gem.

You should look up what wild assumption means before posting.
Putting more thought would also help. Perhaps stop sitting on your head?

 

[lousy]

You should look up what wild assumption means before posting.
Putting more thought would also help. Perhaps stop sitting on your head?

Right. What are we twelve? I am happy to call out your "logic". Just because Kassian stayed in stage 1 is absolutely not proof of progress. The only proof WE could see of progress would be him leaving the program.

 

[arttk]

Right. What are we twelve? I am happy to call out your "logic". Just because Kassian stayed in stage 1 is absolutely not proof of progress. The only proof WE could see of progress would be him leaving the program.

Except he wasn't and Benning said so. Seems like you were not paying attention were you.

 

[Tinhorn1]

So 4 years ago a 19 year old had to spend some time in the AHL? You're right, he's donezo IMO.

To be honest, he should have been in the AHL full time back then. Regardless what the problems were then, he never again had any problems and was always in shape and ready to go. The Sedins were healthy scratches early in their careers too, I hope we don't move them for some 4th liners because they have some addiction we don't know about.

Okay.

http://canucksarmy.com/2013/4/3/why-was-zack-kassian-demoted

This is getting a bit silly. I don't want to be in the position of dragging Kassian's name through the mud, but he was an inconsistent player, to say the least. Neither you nor I know to what extent his addiction played a part in that, though I imagine that team management might have a better idea.

Honestly, you're making it sound as though Kassian was the consummate pro. Richardson, his supposed friend, last year said in the media that Kassian was not, in fact, always "ready to go." Exactly the opposite.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/kassian-ready-to-return-from-injury-but-future-with-canucks-in-doubt/article22282598/

Again, I was a fan, but at this point we would have to have serious blinders on to ignore what is directly in front of our collective faces.

 

[vanuck]

Interesting that someone who is apparently a drunk and raging alcoholic never once missed practice because of a bender or came to practice hungover. The one guy who did that, SOB, got shipped out of here because he wasn't taking things seriously.

It sucks that Kassian has problems, it really does, but those problems weren't affecting how he prepared. He came to camp in better shape every year. He showed up, he worked hard. If he drinks too much in his own time, that's unfortunate and hopefully the team could help him with it, but he's here to play hockey.

Call me when he's on the ice drunk or hungover, or is missing practices because he's too busy partying.

It's funny how the Canucks think they're in a position to be dumping good players for literally less than nothing when they're still a mediocre hockey club at this point in time.

 

[bsjezz]

It's funny how the Canucks think they're in a position to be dumping good players for literally less than nothing when they're still a mediocre hockey club at this point in time.

brandon prust is part of the team last i checked. you may not like it, but it's true.

 

[Win One Before I Die]

I like Prust on the 4th line, I don't care what you guys think.

The doorman, Sutter and Prust is going to be the most devestating line in the playoffs when all players are at full speed.

The enforcer has evolved and we got two of them. Kassian won't be playing this year. We got Prust for a 5th rounder. And you are joking if you don't think having a 4th line of 4th liner vets is a good thing.

 

[Intangibos]

Okay.

http://canucksarmy.com/2013/4/3/why-was-zack-kassian-demoted

This is getting a bit silly. I don't want to be in the position of dragging Kassian's name through the mud, but he was an inconsistent player, to say the least. Neither you nor I know to what extent his addiction played a part in that, though I imagine that team management might have a better idea.

Honestly, you're making it sound as though Kassian was the consummate pro. Richardson, his supposed friend, last year said in the media that Kassian was not, in fact, always "ready to go." Exactly the opposite.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/kassian-ready-to-return-from-injury-but-future-with-canucks-in-doubt/article22282598/

Again, I was a fan, but at this point we would have to have serious blinders on to ignore what is directly in front of our collective faces.

The Richardson quote is nothing. He said he's a great guy to be around but he isn't always focused. What is the problem here? Young guys are not always ready to go, Richardson himself says it's normal for a young guy but as you get older you have to reel it in. You know who else said he wasn't always ready to go last year? Linden Vey, the guy who got 20 games on the PP with the Sedins and a sizable raise in the off season. I don't think ready to go means what you think it means. Hell, there were times that Bertuzzi wasn't always ready to go, you still don't pay to get rid of him. I used to laugh about the opposing team getting in Bertuzzi's face. He would put on his 'grumpy face' and play like a god.

I like Prust on the 4th line, I don't care what you guys think.

The doorman, Sutter and Prust is going to be the most devestating line in the playoffs when all players are at full speed.

The enforcer has evolved and we got two of them. Kassian won't be playing this year. We got Prust for a 5th rounder. And you are joking if you don't think having a 4th line of 4th liner vets is a good thing.

Our problem isn't Prust on the 4th line. Sort of. There are 2 problems. First of all, Prust is getting older now and his play has significantly declined over the past couple of years. On top of that, not only are we paying a 5th for a year of Prust, but his contract is downright bad at the moment. He makes what Jannik Hansen makes, and those two are clearly different levels of players. Right now Prust is worth less than Dorsett and Dorsett is worth 1-1.5M at the most. So not only is 1 year of Brandon Prust not worth a 5th, there are also better players on the market available.

Prust on a 4th line is kind of okay, in spite of his declining play, but he takes up too much cap space and we overpaid to get him. Also, he brings the same game as Dorsett, but not as well. That's kind of redundant, we don't need two players who are designated fighters who primarily have staged fights that do nothing. If you want to have one of them on your team, that's fine as long as they can play hockey. I liked that Prust was teaching the guys to fight, even though he isn't exactly good at it, getting some tips from him could be useful. However, they could get the exact same thing from Dorsett. The team is meant to play hockey, and Prust just isn't very good at it anymore. It's debatable if a team even really needs one of these players, but no team needs two.

 

[vanuck]

brandon prust is part of the team last i checked. you may not like it, but it's true.

They got a much worse player in return and had to give up a pick. They got worse on the ice and off the ice.

 

[Nomobo]

They got a much worse player in return and had to give up a pick. They got worse on the ice and off the ice.

Oh, they got worse off the ice too?

 

[Red]

They got worse on the ice and off the ice.

Worse off the ice? Huh? How exactly?

I can't stand Benning as much as anyone and think he has made a ton of incompetent horrible moves for this franchise but I have to say that with what has come out with the Kassian saga here, I can't fault Benning for that trade at all.

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

That's one thing that's really not accurate with Prust. By all accounts he's a great guy in the locker room. I just happen to think that you shouldn't place a premium on getting 'character guys' in the locker room.

The big thing with any sort of substance abuse issue is that the abuser has to want to be committing to it himself and has to want treatment. The Canucks could have tried to help Kassian all they wanted to, but at the end of the day, Kassian has to help himself.

This isn't a modern day Bryan Fogarty where everyone is just looking the other way as someone self destructs. If Kassian was a part of the NHL's substance abuse program and if he ran afoul of it and was moved up to stage 2, well, that indicates to me that Kassian isn't interested in being helped, and there's little that the Canucks could do.

EDIT: Also, the comparisons to Rypien aren't really fair. By all accounts, Rypien went to the Canucks asking for help. There's been little indication that Kassian has done anything to try and address his problems. Kassian's situation is really unfortunate, but there's only so much handholding you can do. I guarantee that if Kassian was trying or went to Benning and was like "look, I need help," the org would have done everything they could to help him.

The abruptness of his sudden "back injury" and then this BS in Montreal indicates that he wasn't taking treatment seriously.

 

[me2]

Worse off the ice? Huh? How exactly?

I can't stand Benning as much as anyone and think he has made a ton of incompetent horrible moves for this franchise but I have to say that with what has come out with the Kassian saga here, I can't fault Benning for that trade at all.

He didn't have to go trade the 5th or take a call dump in Prust. Buyout would have been $290k or there abouts. That frees up $2.2m over Prust.

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

He didn't have to go trade the 5th or take a call dump in Prust. Buyout would have been $290k or there abouts. That frees up $2.2m over Prust.

It's entirely possible that Benning was frank with the Habs about Kassian's situation and this was one last favor for Kassian to try and change his life around.

A buyout would've cut him off from a wide swath of resources available to him, and a lot of pro athletes aren't really equipped at dealing with the outside world (see: Tom Brady and mastering e-mail.)

It was a bad value trade if you look at it from a strict 1:1 perspective. If you buy into the 'addition by way of subtraction' approach, though, getting Kassian off the team would be seen as a huge plus if he was viewed as being severely detrimental to the team.

 

[Intangibos]

That's one thing that's really not accurate with Prust. By all accounts he's a great guy in the locker room. I just happen to think that you shouldn't place a premium on getting 'character guys' in the locker room.

The big thing with any sort of substance abuse issue is that the abuser has to want to be committing to it himself and has to want treatment. The Canucks could have tried to help Kassian all they wanted to, but at the end of the day, Kassian has to help himself.

This isn't a modern day Bryan Fogarty where everyone is just looking the other way as someone self destructs. If Kassian was a part of the NHL's substance abuse program and if he ran afoul of it and was moved up to stage 2, well, that indicates to me that Kassian isn't interested in being helped, and there's little that the Canucks could do.

Have you ever considered that the trade may have been part of what made him worse? Perhaps after settling in here and trying to get his life together, him being moved out after, from his perspective, being mistreated by the new management is the major reason he maybe got worse? All his friends were here, he's spent his entire adult life here up until now. Sure he was in Buffalo before but he wasn't there long and really settled in here.

Aside from it being kind of speculative to even say that his alleged alcoholism was the reason he was traded, since it never seemingly interfered in his work here for the past few years at least, it also seems odd to imply that he was moved because he was worsening. In fact, I'd find it more likely that the way this team handled him was a factor in his decline in behavior if there really is one. He wouldn't be the first player to be disgruntled after being moved by this management, Garrison and Bieksa spoke out about the way they were handled and one is a local guy who took a discount and played hard, and the other is a Canuck lifer. Both I'd say are really good lockerroom guys and not really people I would expect to mouth off to the media.

Which a change of scenery can be a good thing, someone abruptly being moved or being treated negatively can be devastating for someone dealing with depression. Addiction and depression like mentioned earlier are both mental illnesses, and often go hand in hand. There is a reason we didn't just ship Rypien out when he had problems and just gave him time off, and he ended up a fan favorite.

Regardless of Kassian's problem, he is by all accounts a good guy. He is a fan favorite and he was well liked by his teammates in the dressing room. I found it disgraceful the way they handled him before and after the trade, just like I found it disgraceful the way they handled Garrison. Character starts at the top and the moves this management has made are anything but classy. Hell, they even fired the trainer. When does the trainer ever get fired? The team loves their trainer, the guy who takes care of them all year, and Burnstein was one of the best in the business. Real good character shipping him out along with everyone else. Maybe Kassian, Burnstein, Gilman and Henning partied together and JB felt left out. Gillis treated his players well to a fault, all the players here have nothing but great things to say about the guy who everyone talks about as being egotistical. Benning on the other hand clearly doesn't command the same respect, and it's going to start to show in the free agent market. It would be nice to see some people get let go with respect and actually have good things to say about Benning, that would be a nice change and sign of improvement.