Canucks Managerial Thread II

[arttk]

Reading the link I posted, doctors seem to control the majority of Stage 1 and it's relatively hush hush. Only a doctor can escalate you to Stage 2 (or a conviction potentially?). Montreal was probably forced to escalate him to Stage 2 with such a public "incident".

Though that stage 1 has strict rules and once those rules are broken, hello stage 2. I am assuming getting piss drunk breaks the rule considering that you are allow zero alcohol during rehab.

I am guessing stage1 in general is kept under wraps, didn't even know Ferland was in stage 1 until it was mentioned long after.

 

[vanuck]

Benning for helping to develop Hutton and Horvat also.

Benning had practically zilch to do with 'developing' Hutton. Nothing beats playing pro games. Instead he sent him home.

 

[Intangibos]

Yeah it seems that stage 1 has rules, and when those rules are broken you automatically get bumped to stage 2. There is no telling what the rules are, though. It could just be being in a car driven by someone under the influence. It could be having police or paramedics/doctors involved in an incident where you were drunk. Things that are very legal, and very well could show a major lapse of judgment, but could also not have been a big deal. While in general, addicts should avoid those substances altogether to avoid relapsing, there are a number of addicts who can function fine without cutting out their vice altogether. For example, it may have been possible for Kassian to drink excessively without it affecting his career. Maybe after the guys go home from a night out, Kassian would pick up some more and continue on his own or drink at home, but never on a night before practice.

I'm not saying this is the case, but it seems to be commonly believed that alcoholics must 100% cut alcohol out of their life. While that's often true, it's not true 100% of the time. People are different, and different treatments may be effective for them. I've personally met addicts who while still unfortunately do hard drugs or drink, they've managed to dial it back to the point where they don't do it at super inappropriate times. From my experience, however, they do seem more likely to relapse, so it probably isn't the most effective way to manage their problem.

On the topic of the kids Gillis vs Benning. Not sure how Benning can get credit for Hutton or Horvat. As for Virtanen, he isn't exactly looking amazing when compared to the other players picked after him (not that they're impressive either), so it's kind of disingenuous to give Benning massive props for him. McCann I'll give Benning credit for, although I have seen the arguments that McCann and the players picked immediately after him (Pastrnak, Scherbak and Goldobin) look excellent and McCann is a classic Gillis pick, which is believable. I do think it's a bit of a stretch though and really gets in to hypothetical, so it's easier to just give Benning credit. Even if Gillis would have made the same pick, it was still an excellent pick so far by Benning, and he should get credit for not ****ing it up.

 

[Cupless44]

From what has been posted before by someone (want to say Bob Mac, could be some other reporter), stage 1 is still pretty strict. Breaking any of those rules would automatically escalate to stage 2 which comes with a suspension as we can see already with Montreal.

So based on that, I think we know that Kassian wasn't a problem last season, because if he was, he would've been sent to stage 2 no? If he wasn't a problem, what motives are there to get rid of him other than, I don't like him especially Benning PAID to get rid of him.

The Canucks do have the right to build a team based on good character as it often helps win championships. I think you heard the Canucks use the word"professionalism" often when referring to Kassian. Just because he wasn't in stage 2 doesn't mean everything was A-OK. No offence but that is a pretty simplistic view. There was stuff going on in his off ice habits and commitment to the team and his career that was not acceptable to what they are trying to build here. They worked extensively with this player with Linden, alot with Stan Smyl and the coaches also. At some point the organization has the right to move on and do what is best for the hockey club.

 

[vanuck]

Actually it seems like the current management group just gave up.
If Kass had a relapse, stage 2 was mandatory. The fact that he wasn't sent to stage 2 last season showed that either he didn't have a relapse or the management group didn't care enough to put him in.

Yep, seems like they just gave up on him as fast as they could. For an organization that claims to be centered around having "good people", they sure didn't put much time and effort into trying to help him get over his issues.

All of Benning's behavior points towards that. I mean we were hearing trade rumors like around xmas. It's like once they found out he HAD substance abuse issue, they just wanted to wipe their hands clean.

Benning's prior treatment of Seguin points to that he just doesn't want to deal with anything that he sees as "character issues". Which is ironic considering how many "mentors" he is trying to bring in to coach his young guys. It's like you want good guys to coach young guys but at the same time don't believe people with prior issues can be coached.

Pretty much.

 

[lousy]

Yep, seems like they just gave up on him as fast as they could. For an organization that claims to be centered around having "good people", they sure didn't put much time and effort into trying to help him get over his issues.

That is a bunch of wild assumptions based on flimsy evidence.

 

[vanuck]

Re: just waive Kassian. Lol could you imagine! You guys would be saying "at least get a vet on an expiring contract that you can deal at the deadline. Throw in a later pick if you have to! Turible asset management! !"

Not really. They could've signed one of the many UFAs who are better players than Prust to play on the 4th line and were practically begging for contracts. They all got picked up for peanuts.

 

[Cupless44]

Yep, seems like they just gave up on him as fast as they could. For an organization that claims to be centered around having "good people", they sure didn't put much time and effort into trying to help him get over his issues.



Pretty much.

That is untrue. Linden and Smyl put in a lot of time trying to turn the kid around. Even those that hate Benning and want to pin this on him, if you are Canuck fans I think you should know who Linden and Smyl are and how they treat players and people in general.

Not every athlete can handle the environment that comes with the game and the earnings. Do you blame the GM on every NFL team each time a player has substance problems? Probably not because you would be blaming every team in the NFL.

 

[Intangibos]

The Canucks do have the right to build a team based on good character as it often helps win championships. I think you heard the Canucks use the word"professionalism" often when referring to Kassian. Just because he wasn't in stage 2 doesn't mean everything was A-OK. No offence but that is a pretty simplistic view. There was stuff going on in his off ice habits and commitment to the team and his career that was not acceptable to what they are trying to build here. They worked extensively with this player with Linden, alot with Stan Smyl and the coaches also. At some point the organization has the right to move on and do what is best for the hockey club.

What are you basing that on? Chicago and LA don't exactly ooze character, nor does Boston. Keith, Kane, Stoll, Richards, Voynov, Lucic and Thomas. Those guys beat real character guys like Sedin, Hamhuis, Malhotra, Bieksa and Luongo. Having a locker room of cancers isn't a good idea, but the most important thing is that they work together well and have a close relationship. They can all be *******s if they want if they work hard and don't want to let their friends in the room down. Kassian was a great guy in the room in that sense, everyone loved him, everyone wanted to be around him. That is what's really important, the whole character thing is something overblown for fans on 1040 and people reading Sports Illustrated.

 

[vanuck]

That is a bunch of wild assumptions based on flimsy evidence.

6 months in there were rumours they were already looking to deal him, and they certainly were at the deadline at the very latest.

And he never entered Stage 2.

 

[lousy]

6 months in there were rumours they were already looking to deal him, and they certainly were at the deadline at the very latest.

And he never entered Stage 2.

Like I said, flimsy evidence for such a damning assumption.

 

[Cupless44]

What are you basing that on? Chicago and LA don't exactly ooze character, nor does Boston. Keith, Kane, Stoll, Richards, Voynov, Lucic and Thomas. Those guys beat real character guys like Sedin, Hamhuis, Malhotra, Bieksa and Luongo. Having a locker room of cancers isn't a good idea, but the most important thing is that they work together well and have a close relationship. They can all be *******s if they want if they work hard and don't want to let their friends in the room down. Kassian was a great guy in the room in that sense, everyone loved him, everyone wanted to be around him. That is what's really important, the whole character thing is something overblown for fans on 1040 and people reading Sports Illustrated.

There are different ways to look at what teams want in character. It is not all rah rah stuff. For example, a team set on integrating young inexperienced players into the team might not want a player with substance abuse problems that affect his professionalism in that mix, so they might choose to move him elsewhere. Whether you mock Linden and Benning or not, they do seem to be serious about their youth learning from leaders that set a good example. Pretty common practice that goes beyond sports.

 

[vanuck]

That is untrue. Linden and Smyl put in a lot of time trying to turn the kid around. Even those that hate Benning and want to pin this on him, if you are Canuck fans I think you should know who Linden and Smyl are and how they treat players and people in general.

Not every athlete can handle the environment that comes with the game and the earnings. Do you blame the GM on every NFL team each time a player has substance problems? Probably not because you would be blaming every team in the NFL.

See above response to lousy.

Considering the history of, say, domestic violence in the NFL I'm not sure I'd use that as a counterpoint. You don't think there are issues in football that teams should be trying to educate their players about?

 

[vanuck]

Like I said, flimsy evidence for such a damning assumption.

You're right, they spent years and years trying to help him and he got worse. Don't know why you're so surprised considering Benning's history of dealing with perceived lack of "character".

 

[Intangibos]

There are different ways to look at what teams want in character. It is not all rah rah stuff. For example, a team set on integrating young inexperienced players into the team might not want a player with substance abuse problems that affect his professionalism in that mix, so they might choose to move him elsewhere. Whether you mock Linden and Benning or not, they do seem to be serious about their youth learning from leaders that set a good example. Pretty common practice that goes beyond sports.

Who said anything about 'rah rah' stuff? I certainly didn't. If I did it would be bizarre to have Sedin listed as having more character than Lucic. I'm talking about people who have glaring character issues. Kane coming to camp out of shape from partying all summer, Stoll and Richards with their addiction issues, and Voynov with domestic abuse. All cup champions.

Don't try to change the subject, I didn't say anything about playing tough on the ice. You said character helps you win cups, but quite a few of the recent cup champions are anything but character guys.

 

[Cupless44]

6 months in there were rumours they were already looking to deal him, and they certainly were at the deadline at the very latest.

And he never entered Stage 2.

So because he never entered Stage 2 you are suggesting everything with Kassian was perfectly fine?

BTW the Canuck organization gave Kassian 3 years to prove that he was serious about his career and being a Vancouver Canuck.

The Montreal GM is fed up with him after one pre-season. Something to note.

 

[vanuck]

Character is frankly the most overrated "attribute" in hockey. Being good at hockey wins Cups, not character.

 

[vanuck]

So because he never entered Stage 2 you are suggesting everything with Kassian was perfectly fine?

BTW the Canuck organization gave Kassian 3 years to prove that he was serious about his career and being a Vancouver Canuck.

The Montreal GM is fed up with him after one pre-season. Something to note.

These sort of things can take years to address. Meanwhile he was still an asset on the ice which is ultimately the bottom line.

 

[Intangibos]

These sort of things can take years to address. Meanwhile he was still an asset on the ice which is ultimately the bottom line.

And a better asset than what we got in return for him to boot

 

[Cupless44]

See above response to lousy.

Considering the history of, say, domestic violence in the NFL I'm not sure I'd use that as a counterpoint. You don't think there are issues in football that teams should be trying to educate their players about?

I specifically referred to substance abuse in my post. Players are suspended regularly for drugs, DUI etc. The NFL has several comprehensive programs in place but it doesn't mean some players dont make bad decisions and have problems. Its life. It happens. But it is a bigger problem than blaming one GM. And yes players with issues wear out their welcome in the NFL and get sent somewhere else.

Really time to find a new topic to blame Benning for.

 

[vanuck]

I specifically referred to substance abuse in my post. Players are suspended regularly for drugs, DUI etc. The NFL has several comprehensive programs in place but it doesn't mean some players make bad decisions and have problems. Its life. It happens. But it is a bigger problem than blaming one GM. And yes players with issues wear out their welcome in the NFL and get sent somewhere else.

Really time to find a new topic to blame Benning for.

Well it becomes a question of where you draw the line on substance abuse which isn't exactly something you can fix very quickly.

To me ZK seems like a good person, just one who needs help with problems that need sorting out. Imagine if the Canucks tossed Rick Rypien to the wind when they knew about his depression and everything.

 

[Cupless44]

You're right, they spent years and years trying to help him and he got worse. Don't know why you're so surprised considering Benning's history of dealing with perceived lack of "character".

C'mon I mean really.

Kassian's issues went on for 3 years and involve a multitude of Canuck officials from Gillis, Smyl, Linden, Benning and several coaches. To attempt to blame this all on Benning is completely ridiculous. This is the perfect example of the Benning witch hunt run amok.

You want to trash him on Sbisa. Fill your boots, well deserved. But this is comical really.

Lets look at this.

You guys trash Benning all summer for trading this "talented productive big young forward". Then you trash Benning for not getting a good return on the trade. Even now when you finally learn the truth about the extent of Kassians issues, and that it is clear that 98% of NHL teams wouldn't touch Kassian let alone offer Benning anything significant in a trade it doesn't stop. Nope, no chance you could actually admit you were wrong about the situation...now comes the best spin of all...It's all Bennings fault again!! He should have worked more with poor ZACK!!

Classic!

 

[Cupless44]

Who said anything about 'rah rah' stuff? I certainly didn't. If I did it would be bizarre to have Sedin listed as having more character than Lucic. I'm talking about people who have glaring character issues. Kane coming to camp out of shape from partying all summer, Stoll and Richards with their addiction issues, and Voynov with domestic abuse. All cup champions.

Don't try to change the subject, I didn't say anything about playing tough on the ice. You said character helps you win cups, but quite a few of the recent cup champions are anything but character guys.

And I am saying this management group didn't want Kassian and his problems around their young players, which is within their rights after the organization worked with him for 3 years.

 

[Cupless44]

Well it becomes a question of where you draw the line on substance abuse which isn't exactly something you can fix very quickly.

To me ZK seems like a good person, just one who needs help with problems that need sorting out. Imagine if the Canucks tossed Rick Rypien to the wind when they knew about his depression and everything.

Exactly!

When has this organization or Trevor Linden not treated their players well. They are known around the league as a great organization to play for.

Again, the organization worked with Kassian for 3 years. After rehab and working with him unfortunately the problems continued so they moved on. Please tell me you actually don't think all was fine with Kassian here and he just all of a sudden had one bad night in Montreal.

 

[vanuck]

C'mon I mean really.

Kassian's issues went on for 3 years and involve a multitude of Canuck officials from Gillis, Smyl, Linden, Benning and several coaches. To attempt to blame this all on Benning is completely ridiculous. This is the perfect example of the Benning witch hunt run amok.

You want to trash him on Sbisa. Fill your boots, well deserved. But this is comical really.

Lets look at this.

You guys trash Benning all summer for trading this "talented productive big young forward". Then you trash Benning for not getting a good return on the trade. Even now when you finally learn the truth about the extent of Kassians issues, and that it is clear that 98% of NHL teams wouldn't touch Kassian let alone offer Benning anything significant in a trade it doesn't stop. Nope, no chance you could actually admit you were wrong about the situation...now comes the best spin of all...It's all Bennings fault again!! He should have worked more with poor ZACK!!

Classic!

Exactly!

When has this organization or Trevor Linden not treated their players well. They are known around the league as a great organization to play for.

Again, the organization worked with Kassian for 3 years. After rehab and working with him unfortunately the problems continued so they moved on. Please tell me you actually don't think all was fine with Kassian here and he just all of a sudden had one bad night in Montreal.

Here's a very simple question: if it was such a problem under the previous regime - who were willing to live with ZK, issues and all - why did they never healthy scratch him the way this group did?

Again, if Gillis and co. had been working with him this whole time it seems like they were much more willing to deal with it than these guys are.