Canucks Managerial Thread II

[Verviticus]

You have absolutely no clue what the Canuck organization has tried to do with Kassian or how bad his issues are.

neither do you and her you are, blah blah blah

ps rune: biega SMASHED sbisa

 

[castanza]

Because Gillis drafted them and developed them and Benning has been here for just over a year? The majority of their development was not under Benning. It's hilarious that some are touting Hutton and Horvat's play as some sort of accomplishment for the current management. Horvat basically willed his way into the line up

Its even more laughable to not give any credit for the development of our young players to this current management.

Just over a year isn't long but its enough to have a positive impact on player development.

Look at how well a guy like Andrey Pedan developed from the time he was acquired up until his concussion...less than a year. Baertschi is another player who has clearly developed further and is a different player from the time that he was a Flame in virtually half a season. Markstrom had everyone thinking he had regressed and now after one year of development he is a solid goalie prospect again and on the team.

 

[arttk]

Its even more laughable to not give any credit for the development of our young players to this current management.

Just over a year isn't long but its enough to have a positive impact on player development.

Look at how well a guy like Andrey Pedan developed from the time he was acquired up until his concussion...less than a year. Baertschi is another player who has clearly developed further and is a different player from the time that he was a Flame in virtually half a season. Markstrom had everyone thinking he had regressed and now after one year of development he is a solid goalie prospect again and on the team.

Yeah let's ignore that the whole farm team was started by MG and the current farm team coach who we all love is also a MG hire.

 

[Verviticus]

it is absurd on a level I can't describe to give benning any credit for huttons play. if anything he hurt him with that ******** in Utica, but by all means believe garbage like that

 

[Verviticus]

along with "sbisa is an acceptable defender", "benning deserves credit for developing Hutton" is so unfathomably wrong that I can't even comprehend how someone without an agenda could make the argument

 

[Cupless44]

neither do you and her you are, blah blah blah

ps rune: biega SMASHED sbisa

Let me just say that I didn't find out Kassian has been in rehab while in Vancouver last week in the media like most here and leave it at that. Some things should not be discussed on here but I have known for a while. I am sure you can find more appropriate topics to bash Benning on. This has just taken the witch hunt to a really low and misinformed level.

 

[Verviticus]

Let me just say that I didn't find out Kassian has been in rehab while in Vancouver last week in the media like most here and leave it at that. Some things should not be discussed on here but I have known for a while. I am sure you can find more appropriate topics to bash Benning on. This has just taken the witch hunt to a really low and misinformed level.

the beauty of jim benning is that yes, there are literally dozens of reasons to bash him. he's garbahe

 

[castanza]

Yeah let's ignore that the whole farm team was started by MG and the current farm team coach who we all love is also a MG hire.

I never hated MG, I thought he like all GM's made some good decisions but some bad as well. Travis Green as the farm team coach looks to be working out pretty good.

But proof is in the pudding, when MG was GM there weren't many prospects pushing for jobs compared to one year into the Benning and Linden era.

 

[Verviticus]

wow it's almost as if 19 year old Ben Hutton wasn't likrly to push for a job

what a ridiculous spin lol

 

[RandV]

Its even more laughable to not give any credit for the development of our young players to this current management.

Just over a year isn't long but its enough to have a positive impact on player development.

Look at how well a guy like Andrey Pedan developed from the time he was acquired up until his concussion...less than a year. Baertschi is another player who has clearly developed further and is a different player from the time that he was a Flame in virtually half a season. Markstrom had everyone thinking he had regressed and now after one year of development he is a solid goalie prospect again and on the team.

Current management is at the head of the table, for a broader term much of the 'management' is the same group that was here under Gillis, and in some cases even Nonis and Burke.

See, we're criticizing Benning on moves that were directly made by him: trades, signings, etc. You're trying to give him credit for the work done under him by the various players and coaching staff over the years going back before Benning even came on board.

It's just an outright ridiculous stretch here

 

[Addison Rae]

I never hated MG, I thought he like all GM's made some good decisions but some bad as well. Travis Green as the farm team coach looks to be working out pretty good.

But proof is in the pudding, when MG was GM there weren't many prospects pushing for jobs compared to one year into the Benning and Linden era.

Because the Canucks were among the deepest teams in the league when Gillis was GM. Even then both Tanev and Lack pushed their way onto the Canucks under Gillis, two undrafted players who developed into a top pairing d-man and starting goalie.

Stop acting like Benning picked some diamonds in the ruff in the mold of Palat and Kucherov who forced their way onto the team. Jake Virtanen was the 6th overall pick in his draft class, for a 6th overall pick to be tracking well he should absolutely be on the cusp of making his NHL team. He had a mediocre draft + 1 year, and probably doesn't even go top 15 in a 2014 redraft. He had an okay preseason, if he weren't Bennings first pick as GM he wouldn't be near making this team. McCann had an excellent preseason, an excellent draft + 1 year and should be on the team, no complaints here. Hutton was developed in college, and clearly caught Benning by surprise at how good he is, as he didn't even deem him to be good enough for the AHL last year.

So essentially only one Benning pick deserves to be on the roster, and there's a good chance he gets sent back.

 

[arttk]

I never hated MG, I thought he like all GM's made some good decisions but some bad as well. Travis Green as the farm team coach looks to be working out pretty good.

But proof is in the pudding, when MG was GM there weren't many prospects pushing for jobs compared to one year into the Benning and Linden era.

Here are the prospects pushing for jobs (including last season)

Horvat, Kenins, Markstrom, Hutton, Corrado(was ours), Gaunce, Grenier, Virtanen and McCann.

Then there is also a 2nd tier like Cassels, Subban and Shinkaruk who might push for a job next year.

Most of the kids are MG drafted kids and kids drafted after the scouting department revamp. It's all about timing really.

And honestly with the 6th overall pick, whoever MG picked probably might've been pushing the roster this year, that's what high picks tend to do.

I think the real surprise is McCann pushing a spot this early and kudos to Benning for drafting him. But I find it hard to credit him for the other guys really.

 

[Toxic0n]

Its even more laughable to not give any credit for the development of our young players to this current management.

Just over a year isn't long but its enough to have a positive impact on player development.

Look at how well a guy like Andrey Pedan developed from the time he was acquired up until his concussion...less than a year. Baertschi is another player who has clearly developed further and is a different player from the time that he was a Flame in virtually half a season. Markstrom had everyone thinking he had regressed and now after one year of development he is a solid goalie prospect again and on the team.

Ok, you win. Benning gets some credit for Hutton's and Horvat's play. Like 5% of the credit. Cool?

Because the Canucks were among the deepest teams in the league when Gillis was GM. Even then both Tanev and Lack pushed their way onto the Canucks under Gillis, two undrafted players who developed into a top pairing d-man and starting goalie.

Stop acting like Benning picked some diamonds in the ruff in the mold of Palat and Kucherov who forced their way onto the team. Jake Virtanen was the 6th overall pick in his draft class, for a 6th overall pick to be tracking well he should absolutely be on the cusp of making his NHL team. He had a mediocre draft + 1 year, and probably doesn't even go top 15 in a 2014 redraft. He had an okay preseason, if he weren't Bennings first pick as GM he wouldn't be near making this team. McCann had an excellent preseason, an excellent draft + 1 year and should be on the team, no complaints here. Hutton was developed in college, and clearly caught Benning by surprise at how good he is, as he didn't even deem him to be good enough for the AHL last year.

So essentially only one Benning pick deserves to be on the roster, and there's a good chance he gets sent back.

This x 100

 

[drax0s]

I don't see how he is not an idiot for trading Kassian. If he was truly that bad, then waiving him and loaning him to some team not named Utcia is an option.

No extra cap, no assets expended. It is stupid to literally pay someone else to take him off our hands when the waiver option is available.

I posted this in the Prust thread when someone claimed the same thing and didn't hear if I was right or wrong, so posting it here for clarification. Are you sure Kassian could be sent to a team other than Utica? According to the the CBA.

13.10 Recognition of Minor League.
For purposes of this Agreement, except as expressly set forth in Article 9, Minor League club shall only include any club in the American Hockey League.

13.11 No Loans to East Coast Hockey League.
A Player who is not in the Entry Level System may not be Loaned to the East Coast Hockey League without his consent.

Basically Kassian could be sent to the AHL (if he cleared waivers), but would have to consent to being sent to the ECHL? Apparently Reserve Players can be sent to any other club, but I'm not sure if Kassian would apply there?

ARTICLE 13 13.12-13.12
(i) A Club may Loan Players on its Reserve List to clubs of any league affiliated with the NHL. The names of the Players Loaned shall remain on the Reserve List of the Club.

Essentially, once you're on a NHL roster, you can't just be tossed somewhere else without your approval? Am I misreading this?

 

[tantalum]

I also think Benning and his team made a decision that they like the long term potential of Markstrom over Lack. It is their right to make that decision. Time will tell if they are right or wrong.

Personally I think Lack is loved here and over-rated. He is a mid level NHL goaltending talent. There is a reason Jones and Talbot fetched higher picks and it wasn't Benning bumbling, it was the market value.

Taking the article for what it says at face value that wouldn't be the case. They chose Lack but then on hearing a number changed gears. The rationalization may have come afterwards as seems to happen with this group.

 

[arttk]

I posted this in the Prust thread when someone claimed the same thing and didn't hear if I was right or wrong, so posting it here for clarification. Are you sure Kassian could be sent to a team other than Utica? According to the the CBA.

Basically Kassian could be sent to the AHL (if he cleared waivers), but would have to consent to being sent to the ECHL? Apparently Reserve Players can be sent to any other club, but I'm not sure if Kassian would apply there?

Essentially, once you're on a NHL roster, you can't just be tossed somewhere else without your approval? Am I misreading this?

Basically there isn't really a reason to waive him unless he is violating something.

Just think about this.

If he relapse, he will automatically be admitted into stage 2 which is an automatic minimum 6 month suspension so his contract won't even count.

If he doesn't have a relapse, uhh why do you want to waive him? Because he might potentially blow up like what happened in Montreal? I thought the reason we brought in all these "mentors" was to make sure kids are looked after.

 

[arttk]

Taking the article for what it says at face value that wouldn't be the case. They chose Lack but then on hearing a number changed gears. The rationalization may have come afterwards as seems to happen with this group.

Pretty much this. Really shows that the management have no idea how to negotiate. Starting number from the player side is the ceiling, not the starting point, negotiations 101.

 

[drax0s]

Basically there isn't really a reason to waive him unless he is violating something.

Just think about this.

If he relapse, he will automatically be admitted into stage 2 which is an automatic minimum 6 month suspension so his contract won't even count.

I'm was responding the suggestion that the often touted "optimal strategy" for Kassian of waiving him and sending him to the ECHL if he was "that bad" might not actually be allowed according to the CBA. Basically if Kassian was a problem, our options were to either trade him or put him on waivers, eventually settling in the AHL. Sending him to the ECHL / SHL / whatever without his permission doesn't look like it was an option.

I also don't know how the Stage 1 / Stage 2 stuff works. Can you be on Stage 1, get cleared and go back to Stage 1? Do you only go to Stage 2 if you break conditions while on Stage 1? Could Kassian have gone into and out of Stage 1 over and over that the Nucks finally got sick of trying to help him make it work and tried to move him?

Lots of unknowns here.

 

[arttk]

I'm was responding the suggestion that the often touted "optimal strategy" for Kassian of waiving him and sending him to the ECHL if he was "that bad" might not actually be allowed according to the CBA. Basically if Kassian was a problem, our options were to either trade him or put him on waivers, eventually settling in the AHL. Sending him to the ECHL / SHL / whatever without his permission doesn't look like it was an option.

I also don't know how the Stage 1 / Stage 2 stuff works. Can you be on Stage 1, get cleared and go back to Stage 1? Do you only go to Stage 2 if you break conditions while on Stage 1? Could Kassian have gone into and out of Stage 1 over and over that the Nucks finally got sick of trying to help him make it work and tried to move him?

Lots of unknowns here.

If he was "that bad", then that means it would be stage 2 for him, and he wouldn't even count. If he gets even worse than that, then I am sure waiving would be a valid option since I am not sure if there is anything that comes after stage 3.

Basically there are a lot of things in place that would protect the Canucks if it gets bad. However there is no evidence that things were "that bad" last season right? So Benning is just really getting rid of him not because Kassian has done anything under his watch, but because he just doesn't want to bother with him, at all.

 

[NoShowWilly]

If he was "that bad", then that means it would be stage 2 for him, and he wouldn't even count. If he gets even worse than that, then I am sure waiving would be a valid option since I am not sure if there is anything that comes after stage 3.

Basically there are a lot of things in place that would protect the Canucks if it gets bad. However there is no evidence that things were "that bad" last season right? So Benning is just really getting rid of him not because Kassian has done anything under his watch, but because he just doesn't want to bother with him, at all.

yes your last sentence is exactly right. they don't want the headache of dealing with a player in the substance abuse program. They paid a premium and Benning got an asset he likes. That's that.

I can't defend Kassian anymore. I wish him the best.

 

[drax0s]

If he was "that bad", then that means it would be stage 2 for him, and he wouldn't even count. If he gets even worse than that, then I am sure waiving would be a valid option since I am not sure if there is anything that comes after stage 3.

Basically there are a lot of things in place that would protect the Canucks if it gets bad. However there is no evidence that things were "that bad" last season right? So Benning is just really getting rid of him not because Kassian has done anything under his watch, but because he just doesn't want to bother with him, at all.

Are you assuming he'd go to stage 2 or is there an outline of the program somewhere? I'm assuming you're assuming (heh) you know how the program works because a little googling shows there is a step after Stage 3 - Stage 3 is an automatic suspension without pay for 6 months - Stage 4 is one season suspension without pay. I have no idea how to transition between stages and whether you can remain Stage 1 for a prolonged time or not. From the sounds of it, it's all up to a doctor?

Players convicted of a drug-related offense are automatically enrolled in the league's SABH program.

"The doctors decide how long you are in the program," Daly said. "It could be forever."

Doctors also decide how often players in the SABH program are drug tested.

"You can play while you are in the program if you are doing outpatient treatment," Daly said. "Your club might not even know you are in the program. But if you violate the terms of your treatment contract, the league and the NHLPA are notified because discipline becomes warranted."

It's possible Kassian stuck it out in Stage 1 while he was here and his doctor chose not to elevate him. Only criminal charges would force an escalation. I'm also 100% speculating here, but it's entirely possible incidents such as this (https://vine.co/v/OUqDQt0IWap), while amusing, are drug related.

 

[arttk]

Are you assuming he'd go to stage 2 or is there an outline of the program somewhere? I'm assuming you're assuming (heh) you know how the program works because a little googling shows there is a step after Stage 3 - Stage 3 is an automatic suspension without pay for 6 months - Stage 4 is one season suspension without pay. I have no idea how to transition between stages and whether you can remain Stage 1 for a prolonged time or not. From the sounds of it, it's all up to a doctor?

It's possible Kassian stuck it out in Stage 1 while he was here and his doctor chose not to elevate him. Only criminal charges would force an escalation. I'm also 100% speculating here, but it's entirely possible incidents such as this (https://vine.co/v/OUqDQt0IWap), while amusing, are drug related.

From what has been posted before by someone (want to say Bob Mac, could be some other reporter), stage 1 is still pretty strict. Breaking any of those rules would automatically escalate to stage 2 which comes with a suspension as we can see already with Montreal.

So based on that, I think we know that Kassian wasn't a problem last season, because if he was, he would've been sent to stage 2 no? If he wasn't a problem, what motives are there to get rid of him other than, I don't like him especially Benning PAID to get rid of him.

 

[Ryp37]

Is this a joke or a serious comment?

3 young players are on the team because they had an excellent preseason and showed they can play in the NHL. They are not on the team because of any cap issues as Benning has always stated that he will make room and find a way to integrate youth if they can play.

3 young guys outplayed a few players on the team, that's no different than any other team where young players are integrated...they are taking jobs of players who were acquired by the GM of that team.

Is that a difficult concept to understand? Why don't you go to the Lighting board [MOD] about how integrating Drouin and Namestnikov into their lineup is bad because they outplayed other assets.

The canucks management has decided that Virtanen needs to be brought along slowly, personally I have no problem with it. Virtanen will be a good player for us, in time.

Having 3 young kids on the team beat out vets like Kenins, Corrado, Vey and Fedun isn't some crazy feat. Higgins got hurt right away that's one less guy to compete with. They beat out Kenins who I agree wasn't playing his game, Vey who Benning paid a 2nd for gave a raise to then waived, and Corrado which was probably the right move as he had a bad preseason. Even though I'd have ditched Sbisa for the 1 mill in savings

Having 136 K in space with this many young guys is laughable, I'm sure JV is enjoying all that press box mentoring but you learn by playing not by eating popcorn. I'm excited for them too but acting like this is some super Benning development plan is just nonsense

 

[drax0s]

From what has been posted before by someone (want to say Bob Mac, could be some other reporter), stage 1 is still pretty strict. Breaking any of those rules would automatically escalate to stage 2 which comes with a suspension as we can see already with Montreal.

So based on that, I think we know that Kassian wasn't a problem last season, because if he was, he would've been sent to stage 2 no? If he wasn't a problem, what motives are there to get rid of him other than, I don't like him especially Benning PAID to get rid of him.

Reading the link I posted, doctors seem to control the majority of Stage 1 and it's relatively hush hush. Only a doctor can escalate you to Stage 2 (or a conviction potentially?). Montreal was probably forced to escalate him to Stage 2 with such a public "incident".

 

[RandV]

I'm was responding the suggestion that the often touted "optimal strategy" for Kassian of waiving him and sending him to the ECHL if he was "that bad" might not actually be allowed according to the CBA. Basically if Kassian was a problem, our options were to either trade him or put him on waivers, eventually settling in the AHL. Sending him to the ECHL / SHL / whatever without his permission doesn't look like it was an option.

Did anyone say anything about sending Kassian to the ECHL or Europe? Kind of the whole point of this discussion is that if we didn't want Kassian here we'd have been better off just waiving him rather than pulling the trigger on the deal Benning made. You'd have a roster spot for Virtanen/Kenins/Gaunce, a little bit more breathing space on the cap, likely don't need to waive/lose Corrado, and you'd still have the 5th round pick. I don't recall anyone getting into specifics of where you'd send Kassian after waiving him, if it got to that stage ideally he'd be claimed but that's not the point.