Canucks Managerial Thread II

[Bleach Clean]

The purpose of the overall discussion is just to have the discussion. We're fans, we don't have input on team managerial decisions. We're not building anything here, and tweaking the knobs and dials, we're just expressing our passion for the sport through conversation about our favorite team.

Given the absolutely toxic tone of these boards over the last six-eight months, there is really no need to take a "pro-negativity" stance. The weaknesses on the team, such as they are, have been well and thoroughly discussed, and in lurid detail. Indeed, it seems that at times we cannot expect to stop discussing them, and they are routinely exhumed and gone over in every single thread on this board, regardless of its intended content.

First, beautifully written. I enjoyed reading your post for its pace and word choice. Especially, the inclusion of the word "jeremiads". Well done. Are you a writer?

Next, I agree, there is no need to take a "pro-negativity stance". There's no need to take a stance at all. Be negative when you want to be. Positive, when you want to be.

I don't believe opinion should be curbed or swayed because the majority opinion is already X or Y. Say what you want to say, and leave it there.

You are correct that we cannot look at a 5-1 result in a single game...a game in which the opposition can be charitably described as a fire drill...and conclude that there are no problems on board the good ship Canuck and it will be full steam ahead to an inevitable championship season. I do ask you to consider what the tone would be if we'd LOST 5-1. Would you be arguing that it was just a single game, that no hasty conclusions should be drawn, that objectivity and perspective should be the order of the day?

I suspect very few posters would. The tone of the GDT was sharply bi-polar for much of the game, with people piling onto every mistake and bad shift until the score was so out of reach it seemed churlish to complain, and even then you had people trying.

There's really nothing wrong with getting hyped about a lopsided win against a historical rival, particularly in a low to no-hoper season like this one. It's fun. Hockey is entertainment. It's supposed to be fun. There's really no need to petition for dour assessments of the team's many flaws post-victory. Believe me, it'll come soon enough. All it's going to take is one bad shift, one bad goal, one bad game, and there will be fresh jeremiads issued about the wailing incompetence of the boob crew running the team and the crumbling, overpaid and under-talented roster tottering around on the ice. There will be naught BUT weaknesses to address, and by address I of course mean 'pillory with withering scorn' until our fingers can type no more.

It's 'supposed to be' whatever posters want it to be. I can be cathartic, fun, negative, joyous etc... all in the same thread.

I think people need to worry less about the delivery of an opinion than the actual content of the opinion. Just my take.

 

[tantalum]

I don't have any illusions Bartkowski is a stud but I liked what I saw for the most part and he has improved the speed on the back end. Far happier to see what he can do over what Kevin Bieksa had become

Thing is he played very similar to Bieksa. He brought the puck up ice, turned it over and got caught. Or stayed deep far too long. Positioning is also suspect. To his credit he played a much more controlled game the back half which suggests to me the prior plays were noticed by the coaching staff and he was asked to rein it in some. Which is to say the skating can be effective but it has to be done at the right time or it becomes dangerous.

 

[Tiranis]

Benning for helping to develop Hutton and Horvat also.

Be careful you don't pull all your muscles with that astroturf stretch.

 

[Toxic0n]

2 of the 4.

Gillis = Hutton/Horvat
Benning = McCann/Virtanen

Unless there was another interesting young player you had in mind.
.

Well, Gillis did leave him with the 6th overall pick. So let's call it 2.5

Is there a direct quote of anyone in management saying "Kassian is an addict, and as we all know, addicts have no character"?

You can be an addict and veritably ooze character. You can also be an addict and display none whatsoever.

Honestly speculating about Kassian's character or lack thereof is getting a bit tiresome. There was clearly more going on with the player than his on-ice performances. Anything past that is just unsavory combing over of a person's private life in order to root out information to further damn or exonerate our GM.

It's all speculation. All we know is
1. Kassian was in the Stage 1 of the progam when Benning came here
2. He did not violate the conditions or whatever causes one to be put in Stage 2
3. Kassian played well but was benched
4. Kassian was traded for scraps.

You can draw your own conclusions, I think Benning decided to wash his hands of the situation rather helping a young player on his team a la Seguin trade. For all his talk about character, he displayed none himself.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

First, beautifully written. I enjoyed reading your post for its pace and word choice. Especially, the inclusion of the word "jeremiads". Well done. Are you a writer?

I'm an editor, but thank you. I wish you'd been grading my high school English papers.

It's 'supposed to be' whatever posters want it to be. I can be cathartic, fun, negative, joyous etc... all in the same thread.

A fair point, although I think we can all agree that the primary purpose of professional sports is an entertainment medium. That, and making money for the owner.

 

[Tiranis]

Well, Gillis did leave him with the 6th overall pick. So let's call it 2.5

I assumed Markstrom was one... young for a goalie.

 

[rune74]

Well, Gillis did leave him with the 6th overall pick. So let's call it 2.5



It's all speculation. All we know is
1. Kassian was in the Stage 1 of the progam when Benning came here
2. He did not violate the conditions or whatever causes one to be put in Stage 2
3. Kassian played well but was benched
3. Kassian was traded for scraps.

You can draw your own conclusions, I think Benning decided to wash his hands of the situation rather helping a young player on his teame a la Seguin trade.

If you look at it in as negative as you can for the benning side then you may be correct....but I doubt they went in there with that mindset at all. End of the day, the player has issues and the team is actually better that he isn't here anymore. This from a guy who liked him. I think your stretching as hard as you can here.

 

[castanza]

Be careful you don't pull all your muscles with that astroturf stretch.

Thanks for the morning comedy with that comment, I needed that one!

 

[arsmaster*]

I think people need to worry less about the delivery of an opinion than the actual content of the opinion. Just my take.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Well, Gillis did leave him with the 6th overall pick. So let's call it 2.5

That is not something for which we should be applauding Gillis!

You can draw your own conclusions, I think Benning decided to wash his hands of the situation rather helping a young player on his team a la Seguin trade. For all his talk about character, he displayed none himself.

The conclusions I draw are that I don't care to speculate aimlessly about the off-ice character of people I don't know. That includes Kassian AND Benning.

 

[Tiranis]

End of the day, the player has issues and the team is actually better that he isn't here anymore.

Would the Flames be better off without Ferland?

 

[Toxic0n]

I assumed Markstrom was one... young for a goalie.

Yeah, I assumed McCann was not going to stick so 3 out of 4. But for his group, it's 2.5 out of 4.

And no, Benning does not get any credit for "developing" Hutton. It's even a stretch to say that he did anything for Horvat. Horvat essentially forced his way onto the team.

That is not something for which we should be applauding Gillis!

I'm not applauding Gillis. But it's a stretch to give Benning credit for the play of a 6th overall pick, don't you think? Yet, here we are, apparently Benning is solely repsonsible for the fact that 4 young players are on the team

The conclusions I draw are that I don't care to speculate aimlessly about the off-ice character of people I don't know. That includes Kassian AND Benning.

Fair enough. I'm entitled to drawing my conclusions based on actions taken. You can stay with your stance.

 

[rune74]

Would the Flames be better off without Ferland?

Is ferland in rehab? I missed that.

 

[Tiranis]

Is ferland in rehab? I missed that.

He's one year sober after being in stage 1 for a long time and having Hartley take him under his wing to work through it. Old regime seemed to take that approach. New regime just decided to wash their hands off it.

Benning's recent comments are unintentionally telling as to their attitude. They thought those were old problems that preceded their time but that's not how addiction works. In my opinion, careers in professional sports are not very conducive to recovering from (/managing) addiction and as such, teams absolutely need to take an active role in such issues. This isn't any other ordinary job. Among many other things, the extensive travel schedule means you're unlikely to have much of a stable support system outside of your work.

 

[Cupless44]

What a load of bull. They have traded away almost a full years worth of draft picks now as well as one of the best defensemen prospects in Europe which goes precisely against focussing on the draft.

7th - Garrison
5th - Prust
2nd - Vey
3rd - Dorsett
3rd - Pedan
2nd -> 3rd (Sutter)
Forsling -> Clendening -> nothing
Corrado -> nothing

All of those moves go against "focussing on the draft". I'm probably forgetting another wasted pick somewhere as well.

At the end of the day it really isn't about keeping every single draft pick. (Gillis handed out 2nds and 3rds for the likes of the immortal Sami Pahlssons of the world btw) It is about drafting and developing impact players that produce in the NHL. When was the last time you saw a Brandon Saad or Corey Perry drafted in Vancouver?

Bottom line. At the time of his firing...In 7 years of drafting under the Gillis administration not 1 top 6 forward or top 4 defenceman was produced. Simply not good enough. Now finally in Horvat and Hutton, we might have 2, but too little too late. Now because of that long multi year void of talent the team needs a proper rebuild to seriously contend.

Trash Benning all you like. I feel better about his first 2 drafts than Gillis's first 6 drafts.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Bottom line. At the time of his firing...In 7 years of drafting under the Gillis administration not 1 top 6 forward or top 4 defenceman was produced. Simply not good enough. Now finally in Horvat and Hutton, we might have 2, but too little too late. Now because of that long multi year void of talent the team needs a proper rebuild to seriously contend.

Trash Benning all you like. I feel better about his first 2 drafts than Gillis's first 6 drafts.

That's a fair criticism, although Gillis was managing a team that won two President's trophies and picked very late almost every year. He's ultimately culpable for the Hodgson pick (although let's be honest, who can say they saw THAT coming at the time of his draft) and Horvat was a trade, but it's difficult to make hay out of high 20's picks.

 

[I am toxic]

He's one year sober after being in stage 1 for a long time and having Hartley take him under his wing to work through it. Old regime seemed to take that approach. New regime just decided to wash their hands off it.

Benning's recent comments are unintentionally telling as to their attitude. They thought those were old problems that preceded their time but that's not how addiction works. In my opinion, careers in professional sports are not very conducive to recovering from (/managing) addiction and as such, teams absolutely need to take an active role in such issues. This isn't any other ordinary job. Among many other things, the extensive travel schedule means you're unlikely to have much of a stable support system outside of your work.

Article at NHL.com

 

[Cupless44]

Are you willing to give Gillis credit for 3 out of the 4 interesting, young players on this team this season?

Sure after missing for multi years looks like he nailed Horvat though we dont know his ceiling yet and Hutton looks to be top 4 material. Happy about both players. Too little too late though which is why the team needs a proper rebuild before it will ever seriously contend again. There was 5-6 years there with no infusion of top young talent. You will notice Kings and Hawks infuse draft picks into the team while winning.

Under Benning there is more focus on drafting and getting youth into the line-up than we have seen in long time.

 

[castanza]

And no, Benning does not get any credit for "developing" Hutton. It's even a stretch to say that he did anything for Horvat. Horvat essentially forced his way onto the team.

Benning and Linden have stated their number 1 priority is drafting and player development. They've proven this by drafting Virtanen and McCann who are now on the team. They have also proven development by finally having young players pushing for spots on this team which has not happened in a very long time.

Even though Markstrom was a Gillis acquisition, it wasn't until Benning and Linden took over where he re-established himself as one of the best goalie prospects in the world.

Why don't you provide your analysis as to why you think they don't do any player development?

 

[arttk]

At the end of the day it really isn't about keeping every single draft pick. (Gillis handed out 2nds and 3rds for the likes of the immortal Sami Pahlssons of the world btw) It is about drafting and developing impact players that produce in the NHL. When was the last time you saw a Brandon Saad or Corey Perry drafted in Vancouver?

Bottom line. At the time of his firing...In 7 years of drafting under the Gillis administration not 1 top 6 forward or top 4 defenceman was produced. Simply not good enough. Now finally in Horvat and Hutton, we might have 2, but too little too late. Now because of that long multi year void of talent the team needs a proper rebuild to seriously contend.

Trash Benning all you like. I feel better about his first 2 drafts than Gillis's first 6 drafts.

He also traded a 3rd rounder for Higgins who is still contributing to this day.

Drafting always takes around 3-4 years after the draft to turn a result. I think it's fair to say nothing turned out from his first 3 drafts, but to just say nothing came out of his 7 years is false.

We are seeing fruits from the 11, 12 and 13 draft but as expected, it takes time for those drafts to turn a result.

Benning is basically working with MG's revised scouting department in his first 2 draft, I mean Crawford was still running things until he got fired and who put Crawford there?
I do expect things to be different since he fired Crawford but even then the guy he put in charge now was a hire from MG.

 

[Cupless44]

2 of the 4.

Gillis = Hutton/Horvat
Benning = McCann/Virtanen

Unless there was another interesting young player you had in mind.



Is there a direct quote of anyone in management saying "Kassian is an addict, and as we all know, addicts have no character"?

You can be an addict and veritably ooze character. You can also be an addict and display none whatsoever.

Honestly speculating about Kassian's character or lack thereof is getting a bit tiresome. There was clearly more going on with the player than his on-ice performances. Anything past that is just unsavory combing over of a person's private life in order to root out information to further damn or exonerate our GM.

Yup now its management's fault for the way they handled it. What happened to the how can idiot Benning trade away a good young 24 year old forward we listened to all summer?

I can tell you that both of the last 2 management groups have tried to work with Kassian on his issues. Enough said on this issue.

 

[PM]

Benning and Linden have stated their number 1 priority is drafting and player development. They've proven this by drafting Virtanen and McCann who are now on the team. They have also proven development by finally having young players pushing for spots on this team which has not happened in a very long time.

Even though Markstrom was a Gillis acquisition, it wasn't until Benning and Linden took over where he re-established himself as one of the best goalie prospects in the world.

Why don't you provide your analysis as to why you think they don't do any player development?

You can't say their number 1 priority is drafting when they have traded away almost a full year's worth of picks. If anything their priority is trading and turnover.

 

[Toxic0n]

Sure after missing for multi years looks like he nailed Horvat though we dont know his ceiling yet and Hutton looks to be top 4 material. Happy about both players. Too little too late though which is why the team needs a proper rebuild before it will ever seriously contend again. There was 5-6 years there with no infusion of top young talent. You will notice Kings and Hawks infuse draft picks into the team while winning.

Under Benning there is more focus on drafting and getting youth into the line-up than we have seen in long time.

I agree with you that we need a proper rebuild. However, that seems to contradict the management's statements re: rebuild. They have said numerous times a rebuild is not an option and making the playoffs is the goal.

Benning and Linden have stated their number 1 priority is drafting and player development. They've proven this by drafting Virtanen and McCann who are now on the team. They have also proven development by finally having young players pushing for spots on this team which has not happened in a very long time.

Why don't you provide your analysis as to why you think they don't do any player development?

Are you asking me to prove a negative?

How about you prove that Benning developed Hutton into what he is today?

If they are so focused on drafting, why are they throwing in picks in every single trade like it's candy?

 

[arttk]

Yup now its management's fault for the way they handled it. What happened to the how can idiot Benning trade away a good young 24 year old forward we listened to all summer?

I can tell you that both of the last 2 management groups have tried to work with Kassian on his issues. Enough said on this issue.

Actually it seems like the current management group just gave up.
If Kass had a relapse, stage 2 was mandatory. The fact that he wasn't sent to stage 2 last season showed that either he didn't have a relapse or the management group didn't care enough to put him in.

 

[Tiranis]

Actually it seems like the current management group just gave up.
If Kass had a relapse, stage 2 was mandatory. The fact that he wasn't sent to stage 2 last season showed that either he didn't have a relapse or the management group didn't care enough to put him in.

He clearly didn't have a relapse. They also clearly didn't care enough to work with him as he continued to be in stage 1. Benning clearly stated that this was something that Kassian dealt with prior to Benning's arrival.

If you cover your eyes and ears, the problems just go away. Just ask Jim Benning.