Canucks Managerial Thread II

[fancouver]

Wow, didn't know the Bruins were the 4th smallest team that year. They played like the biggest team in the league....

 

[tradervik]

[...] Indeed, it seems that at times we cannot expect to stop discussing them, and they are routinely exhumed and gone over in every single thread on this board, regardless of its intended content.

[...]

Venting on something that makes you angry actually makes you angrier.

In studies, people report that they feel better after venting. But researchers find they actually become angrier and more aggressive. People who vent anonymously may become the angriest and most aggressive.

Ssee article.

 

[Toxic0n]

You are right "extreme negativity" is precisely what these boards were full of all summer.

To answer your question... I think those that have trashed Benning past the point of no return are well past being able to give him any credit, even when warranted.

BS. Stop it. Tons of people gave Benning credit for the things he did well, such as signing Vrbata or letting the rookies play this year. It's just pretty much everything else he did was garbage and we are right to critizie him for that.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Ssee article.

You're a parseltongue!

Sort of my go to video for exploring/explaining online outrage spirals: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc

 

[PM]

It's nice to see the team do well in the regular season but that shouldn't be a benchmark for anything. We aren't one of those teams that hasn't seen the postseason in a decade. But we are a handful of teams who have never lifted the cup. Everything we do should be geared towards the long-game of getting a cup, not continual regular season success combined with horrifyingly depressing playoff exits.

 

[PM]

BS. Stop it. Tons of people gave Benning credit for the things he did well, such as signing Vrbata or letting the rookies play this year. It's just pretty much everything else he did was garbage and we are right to critizie him for that.

Yeah the high and mighty attitude some people have on here after 1 win is astounding. How about we win a playoff round before we start gloating? Regular season success means jack.

 

[drax0s]

Lack asked for 4.x as an opening offer and Benning freaked out and nope his way into trading Lack.

I mean this really illustrates how Benning has zero concept on how to negotiate. First offer from the player side is the ceiling, not he starting point. Really explains how every contract signed is paid to the max . Ask Benning and you shall receive.

Um.... "Ask Benning and you shall receive" except Lack asked, didn't receive and got traded for asking. How can you type that in the same post?

One of the biggest keys to successful negotiation is the willingness to walk away from a bad deal and not get attached to something. If Lack asked for 4x4 and Benning was only willing to give him 2.5x2 like Lack eventually signed for, it's on Lack's camp for asking too high. If I'm selling a beater car that would be lucky to get $1500 and my starting price is $5000, that car will sit for sale forever as people just walk away from my out of reality starting price.

To be fair, blame is probably on both sides. Benning established a possibility for a big contract and some agents and players tried to get what they could get.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Yeah the high and mighty attitude some people have on here after 1 win is astounding. How about we win a playoff round before we start gloating? Regular season success means jack.

I know right? Having fun cheering for their team. Enjoying a win. Thinking positively.

Buncha dirtbags.

 

[tantalum]

It is also a very fair assessment to say that whether the team makes the playoffs or not, Benning has made strides to make a slow team faster. Not the only ingredient for success, but something that had to be done.

Remains to be seen. Bartkowski looked really fast the first 20-30 minutes of game 1. It looked exciting. But he got caught 4 or 5 times with a couple good chances against because of that fast play. Fast skating on it's own is not helpful it has to be couple with quick and accurate decision making. Sbisa is a mobile D-man but on a whole he slows the team down with poor and slow decision making (and poor other abilities). The FASTEST plays of the night were the Hutton pass to Hansen and the McCann pass to Burrows. That's how a true quick team plays....quick, proper decisions with the puck. If the guys like McCann and Hutton stay and continue to improve the way they play will have a far bigger impact on team speed than guys like Sbisa and Bartkowski. And certainly credit needs to be given for giving those kids a chance but ultimately those weren't the additions the GM was counting on.

 

[rune74]

BS. Stop it. Tons of people gave Benning credit for the things he did well, such as signing Vrbata or letting the rookies play this year. It's just pretty much everything else he did was garbage and we are right to critizie him for that.

Stop being positive? why?

 

[tantalum]

Um.... "Ask Benning and you shall receive" except Lack asked, didn't receive and got traded for asking. How can you type that in the same post?

One of the biggest keys to successful negotiation is the willingness to walk away from a bad deal and not get attached to something. If Lack asked for 4x4 and Benning was only willing to give him 2.5x2 like Lack eventually signed for, it's on Lack's camp for asking too high. If I'm selling a beater car that would be lucky to get $1500 and my starting price is $5000, that car will sit for sale forever as people just walk away from my out of reality starting price.

To be fair, blame is probably on both sides. Benning established a possibility for a big contract and some agents and players tried to get what they could get.

Except for a few issues...

Based on the article there was no real counter from Benning. Got the number and immediately moved on.

and the other issue of course being Lack was still under contract for a year and there was plenty of time to negotiate.

 

[Nomobo]

A good example would be the story Botch broke on Lack.

Lack asked for 4.x as an opening offer and Benning freaked out and nope his way into trading Lack.

I mean this really illustrates how Benning has zero concept on how to negotiate. First offer from the player side is the ceiling, not he starting point. Really explains how every contract signed is paid to the max . Ask Benning and you shall receive.

This will only end up looking like Boston where we end up needing to trade guys away because our cap management is utter ****.
Just look at the list a poster posted, basically the money we are spending now, we can get like a player or 2 more extra. This is fine for now since we still have a ton of guys on great contracts. Give him 1 or 2 years and you will start to see us bleed more talent for no reason other than incompetence.

Could just as easily be construed as Lack and his agent overvaluing his worth causing Benning to walk away. Somehow I don't think Lack had an opening offer of 4.xxx on the table negotiating with Carolina.

 

[Cupless44]

BS. Stop it. Tons of people gave Benning credit for the things he did well, such as signing Vrbata or letting the rookies play this year. It's just pretty much everything else he did was garbage and we are right to critizie him for that.

Getting rid of defensive liability Bieksa wasn't garbage.
Getting rid of the toxic problem that is Kassian isnt garbage.
Drafting McCann at 24th isnt garbage.
Making the slow Canucks faster isnt garbage
Not qualifying Weber and getting him cheaper wasn't garbage although it was whined about at the time

Then there are over-reactionary things he was bashed for like moving Lack for a 3rd. If it isn't obvious to you already it will be soon that Martin Jones is far better and Lack could not fetch as much as him or Talbot. So much ado about nothing because Lack was likable. Not worth 4 mil and Markstrom is younger and I think will prove to be better.

 

[Toxic0n]

Stop being positive? why?

What? Read his post and my reply again. I did not tell him to stop being positive.
I told him to stop generalizing people and saying that peple that critizie Benning are unwilling to give him credit where it's due. Which is total BS

 

[Cupless44]

It's nice to see the team do well in the regular season but that shouldn't be a benchmark for anything. We aren't one of those teams that hasn't seen the postseason in a decade. But we are a handful of teams who have never lifted the cup. Everything we do should be geared towards the long-game of getting a cup, not continual regular season success combined with horrifyingly depressing playoff exits.

Last 4 years under Gillis the aging, slow, soft team had ONE playoff win.

Painfully obvious the door had shut on this core and it was time to focus on rebuilding the poor farm system and get some young talent moving forward. Drafting and player development had not been a strength of the previous regime.

If there is one thing everyone should like about Linden/Benning is that they have made it clear their NUMBER 1 priority is drafting and player development. NHL, NBA, NFL...drafting is the way you build a championship team.

 

[Toxic0n]

Getting rid of defensive liability Bieksa wasn't garbage.
Getting rid of the toxic problem that is Kassian isnt garbage.
Drafting McCann at 24th isnt garbage.
Making the slow Canucks faster isnt garbage
Not qualifying Weber and getting him cheaper wasn't garbage although it was whined about at the time

Then there are over-reactionary things he was bashed for like moving Lack for a 3rd. If it isn't obvious to you already it will be soon that Martin Jones is far better and Lack could not fetch as much as him or Talbot. So much ado about nothing because Lack was likable. Not worth 4 mil and Markstrom is younger and I think will prove to be better.

This again?


We could have had the SJ pick rather than Anaheim's. Dumbass move by Benning

We could have dumped Kassian for free, signed a UFA that's better than Prust and got to keep the 5th rounder. Garbage move. Or how about helping Kassian with his addiction problem? Nope, easier to overpay for a 4th liner than stand by your people.

The McCann pick look good, good pick by Benning.

Well, he made the Canucks slower by trading speedy Kesler for slow Bonino and slow Sbisa. He gets half a credit for getting them back to what they were, in terms of speed. He loses half a credit for getting bent over in the Bonino trade.

Weber? What's garbage is overpaying Sbisa, Vey and Dorsett while failing to qualify our leading D goal scorer.

The jury is still out on Lack vs Jones, but it is clear that Lack was the better, cheaper, younger option vs Miller.

Last 4 years under Gillis the aging, slow, soft team had ONE playoff win.

What year is this? I thought 2011 was 4 years ago. Plus, we lost to the eventual Cup champ in one of those years.

But good on Benning, we got 2 playoffs wins before getting stomped on by an inferior team.

 

[castanza]

Getting rid of defensive liability Bieksa wasn't garbage.
Getting rid of the toxic problem that is Kassian isnt garbage.
Drafting McCann at 24th isnt garbage.
Making the slow Canucks faster isnt garbage
Not qualifying Weber and getting him cheaper wasn't garbage although it was whined about at the time

Then there are over-reactionary things he was bashed for like moving Lack for a 3rd. If it isn't obvious to you already it will be soon that Martin Jones is far better and Lack could not fetch as much as him or Talbot. So much ado about nothing because Lack was likable. Not worth 4 mil and Markstrom is younger and I think will prove to be better.

Although drafting Horvat was under the previous regime, Benning and the current Canuck management team has to be given credit for the development of our prospects over the past year. This would include the development of Horvat, Hutton, McCann and Gaunce.

This is the first year in many many years where there is some genuine excitement about the progress of our prospects.

 

[PM]

If there is one thing everyone should like about Linden/Benning is that they have made it clear their NUMBER 1 priority is drafting and player development. NHL, NBA, NFL...drafting is the way you build a championship team.

What a load of bull. They have traded away almost a full years worth of draft picks now as well as one of the best defensemen prospects in Europe which goes precisely against focussing on the draft.

7th - Garrison
5th - Prust
2nd - Vey
3rd - Dorsett
3rd - Pedan
2nd -> 3rd (Sutter)
Forsling -> Clendening -> nothing
Corrado -> nothing

All of those moves go against "focussing on the draft". I'm probably forgetting another wasted pick somewhere as well.

 

[Cupless44]

Yeah the high and mighty attitude some people have on here after 1 win is astounding. How about we win a playoff round before we start gloating? Regular season success means jack.

It is not a high and mighty attitude after 1 win at all. It is called keeping an open mind after reading the high and mighty opinions all summer that Benning has completely destroyed the franchise. I don't think this team makes the playoffs. Not really what concerns me at this point of a needed rebuild.

How about keeping some objectivity that not every Benning move is horrible and looking realistically that GMS need more than one year to rebuild and aging, declining team? No one said that fans love every move a GM makes. Not sure about you but I cant recall 3-4 interesting young players on this team in a long, long time.

In the big picture developing the young players is what matters. Not if you like every trade the GM makes. If in 4 years the Canucks are an exciting, rising team with good young players some of you will look pretty silly for calling the GM a moron who knows nothing about hockey.

 

[Toxic0n]

Are you willing to give Gillis credit for 3 out of the 4 interesting, young players on this team this season?

 

[Cupless44]

Remains to be seen. Bartkowski looked really fast the first 20-30 minutes of game 1. It looked exciting. But he got caught 4 or 5 times with a couple good chances against because of that fast play. Fast skating on it's own is not helpful it has to be couple with quick and accurate decision making. Sbisa is a mobile D-man but on a whole he slows the team down with poor and slow decision making (and poor other abilities). The FASTEST plays of the night were the Hutton pass to Hansen and the McCann pass to Burrows. That's how a true quick team plays....quick, proper decisions with the puck. If the guys like McCann and Hutton stay and continue to improve the way they play will have a far bigger impact on team speed than guys like Sbisa and Bartkowski. And certainly credit needs to be given for giving those kids a chance but ultimately those weren't the additions the GM was counting on.

I don't have any illusions Bartkowski is a stud but I liked what I saw for the most part and he has improved the speed on the back end. Far happier to see what he can do over what Kevin Bieksa had become

 

[tantalum]

We could have dumped Kassian for free, signed a UFA that's better than Prust and got to keep the 5th rounder. Garbage move. Or how about helping Kassian with his addiction problem? Nope, easier to overpay for a 4th liner than stand by your people.

Other than the inconsistencies in his execution vs stated desires as you've pointed out I do want to say something about Kassian. It has since come out he was in stage 1 prior to Benning. This management group did not help Kassian. They jettisoned him to wash their hands if the problem and in doing so have also talked about character or lack thereof. Bergevin has said the same thing about character. Let me make this perfectly clear - addiction does not equate to lack of character. To label addicts as such is really not helpful and is harmful in their recovery. It has been noted time and time again by actual science that addiction does not stem from character flaws. It's disappointing to me that this management group even suggests such things.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Are you willing to give Gillis credit for 3 out of the 4 interesting, young players on this team this season?

2 of the 4.

Gillis = Hutton/Horvat
Benning = McCann/Virtanen

Unless there was another interesting young player you had in mind.

To label addicts as such is really not helpful and is harmful in their recovery. It has been noted time and time again by actual science that addiction does not stem from character flaws. It's disappointing to me that this management group even suggests such things.

Is there a direct quote of anyone in management saying "Kassian is an addict, and as we all know, addicts have no character"?

You can be an addict and veritably ooze character. You can also be an addict and display none whatsoever.

Honestly speculating about Kassian's character or lack thereof is getting a bit tiresome. There was clearly more going on with the player than his on-ice performances. Anything past that is just unsavory combing over of a person's private life in order to root out information to further damn or exonerate our GM.

 

[Cupless44]

Except for a few issues...

Based on the article there was no real counter from Benning. Got the number and immediately moved on.

and the other issue of course being Lack was still under contract for a year and there was plenty of time to negotiate.

I also think Benning and his team made a decision that they like the long term potential of Markstrom over Lack. It is their right to make that decision. Time will tell if they are right or wrong.

Personally I think Lack is loved here and over-rated. He is a mid level NHL goaltending talent. There is a reason Jones and Talbot fetched higher picks and it wasn't Benning bumbling, it was the market value.

 

[castanza]

2 of the 4.

Gillis = Hutton/Horvat
Benning = McCann/Virtanen

Unless there was another interesting young player you had in mind.

Benning for helping to develop Hutton and Horvat also.