Canucks Managerial Thread II

[me2]

It's entirely possible that Benning was frank with the Habs about Kassian's situation and this was one last favor for Kassian to try and change his life around.

A buyout would've cut him off from a wide swath of resources available to him, and a lot of pro athletes aren't really equipped at dealing with the outside world (see: Tom Brady and mastering e-mail.)

He would have access to counciling, either privately and I am sure the NHL/NHLPA would continue working with him.

Doesn't sound like Benning tried phase 2, so I doubt he cares that much about Kassian anyway.

It was a bad value trade if you look at it from a strict 1:1 perspective. If you buy into the 'addition by way of subtraction' approach, though, getting Kassian off the team would be seen as a huge plus if he was viewed as being severely detrimental to the team.

Again they didn't need to pay another team to do it.

 

[Intangibos]

in this thread: people getting their hackles raised because it turns out the general manager of an organisation knows more about what's going on within it than they do

in this thread: people getting upset that people dare question the decisions of the general manager.

Sorry, we'll just post supportive things and never form an independent thought when posting here in the future, if such things offend you.

 

[F A N]

Doesn't sound like Benning tried phase 2, so I doubt he cares that much about Kassian anyway.

Huh? Stage 2 isn't something that the GM decides that a player should try. If Kassian didn't violate the Stage 1 conditions, nobody needed to know that Kassian was in the program. But once Kassian enters Stage 2 he's suspended without pay and only the doctors can reinstate and everyone would know about it.

Wow is Benning ever villified around here.

 

[bsjezz]

in this thread: people getting upset that people dare question the decisions of the general manager.

Sorry, we'll just post supportive things and never form an independent thought when posting here in the future, if such things offend you.

not really. benning's had a bad start and i have been critical of a lot of his (and linden's - don't pretend he's not part of all this) decisions. there are very few people in this thread who are wholly supportive of the current regime. hell - this avatar's original intention was utter, unabashed sarcasm.

but the petulant attempt to retain high ground on this issue is really just dragging the discourse further from rationality and empathy and closer to caricaturisation and melodrama

 

[Intangibos]

not really. benning's had a bad start and i have been critical of a lot of his (and linden's - don't pretend he's not part of all this) decisions. there are very few people in this thread who are wholly supportive of the current regime. hell - this avatar's original intention was utter, unabashed sarcasm.

but the petulant attempt to retain high ground on this issue is really just dragging the discourse further from rationality and empathy and closer to caricaturisation and melodrama

I don't think being upset that the team is throwing away players is melodramatic. It's not like Kassian is the only one. That's why this is a big deal. If they bailed on Kassian and that's it, whatever, but they've bailed on so many players it's insane. Benning had so much C depth when he came in and now we have Cracknell on our 4th line.

Henrik
Kesler
Horvat
Richardson
Santorelli
Matthias
Schroeder
Dalpe

Maybe more I can't even remember. We got nothing for most of those players. I actually like Schroeder, but we can remove him and Dalpe from the list, but we still let Santorelli, Matthias and Richardson all walk for nothing, while getting a poor return on Kesler, and in turn getting a poor return for Bonino (in my opinion) who was the return for Kesler It's astonishing how much depth we've lost and that's just at center. Corrado, Stanton, Garrison, Lack, Kassian, Bonino, Forsling(Clendening), Sanguinetti. These are all players that we either lost for nothing, or got a poor return for. Kassian isn't the entire problem, but it's just another player thrown away for questionable reasons. We can say it's because of character, but it's not the first player he's dumped. What about Garrison and Richardson? Were they lacking character? What about Lack? Stanton? Santorelli? It's not Kassian, it's not just the players we've lost already, but we've seen a trend of Benning letting assets walk for nothing or next to it and we're all very concerned about what he loses next. That seems pretty justified in my opinion.

We're constantly bleeding assets. We're not getting absolutely fleeced on every trade, we're not trading the Sedins for 3rd round picks, but this stuff really adds up. Asset management is absolutely vital to being a good GM and Benning has shown he's terribly inept at it. He likes the guys he likes and pays the price to acquire them, but doesn't see any value in the guys he doesn't want and it shows in the trades he makes. He essentially traded Garrison for Vey, and he even threw in a pick. Astonishing.

 

[bsjezz]

it's not possible that "assets" (in your version: roster spots) have been shed in order to allow room for the rookies to rise up? i see your list of centers and i think, where the hell does mccann fit if even one of those guys is still here? where's the reason to watch this year? those guys are all the cornerstones of our last four, boring years.

edit: and mccann was part of the return for kesler, don't forget.

i'm not trying to say we haven't bled talent. losing lack particularly stings, and i'd have much sooner shed miller and/or markstrom. kassian was a hard blow but the circumstances are extenuating and i'm over it. i'd have garrison over sbisa 7 days in the week, but it didn't play out that way: benning tried to stamp his own name with those early contracts and did so ineptly.

but almost everyone else you mention is the definition of middling, disposable nhl talent in the midst of their money-hungry careers who should be the first to go at times of "rebuild." which this has been, even if it lacks the "burn it to the ground" drama that lottery-obsessed couch managers wish to see.

 

[Intangibos]

I have absolutely no problem with moving any player on the roster at all, and sometimes you let someone walk for free to free agency, but you should at least try to maximize value. Richardson was a solid bottom 6er, good penalty killer, he fought for the team, he was a good lockerroom guy. We let him walk for nothing and paid to get Prust who is inferior to Richardson in every way. Richardson is probably even better at fighting than Prust, he just doesn't have as many staged fights. Matthias could have been moved for a 3rd last year at the deadline. Santorelli could have been kept and we could have got more picks/prospects from Anaheim instead of Bonino.

McCann was a good pick, but the package for Kesler was weak. We didn't even know McCann would be available when we made the trade, so it's not like we pulled the trigger when we saw someone we liked available.

We lost value on Kassian
We lost value on Garrison
We lost value on Forsling
We lost value on Kesler
We lost value (arguably) on Bonino
We lost value on Lack
We lost value on McNally
We got zero value on Santorelli
We got zero value on Richardson
We got zero value on Matthias
We got zero value on Schroeder
We got zero value for Corrado
We almost lost Markstrom to waivers, but at least we snuck him through at the right time, but the situation could have been avoided altogether.
We lost value on the Tanev contract. Although it's a good contract, it was pointless to make Tanev 'prove it' again and ended up costing us when we all knew he was the real deal.
We got a bad contract on Sbisa
We got a bad contract on Vey
We got a bad contract on Dorsett
We got a bad contract on Prust
We got a bad contract on Sutter

We got fair value on Bieksa, although he would have been better to keep than Sbisa IMO, or both should be shipped out. Keeping Sbisa over Bieksa is bad, especially when RD are harder to come by.
I like the Baertschi trade, but it doesn't make up for the above.

That's the problem. These little things add up. It might not be a big deal to overpay someone by 500k but when you consistently overpay, 10 overpayments of 500k on your roster is 5M in cap space that could be used on a very solid player.

I don't care if they're middling talents and only worth a 5th round pick, then we should get that 5th round pick instead of a 7th or nothing at all.

 

[F A N]

We got zero value on Santorelli
We got zero value on Schroeder

You do realize Santorelli was a pending UFA when Benning got there and Schroeder had zero trade value?

 

[WhiteCurse]

I have absolutely no problem with moving any player on the roster at all, and sometimes you let someone walk for free to free agency, but you should at least try to maximize value. Richardson was a solid bottom 6er, good penalty killer, he fought for the team, he was a good lockerroom guy. We let him walk for nothing and paid to get Prust who is inferior to Richardson in every way. Richardson is probably even better at fighting than Prust, he just doesn't have as many staged fights. Matthias could have been moved for a 3rd last year at the deadline. Santorelli could have been kept and we could have got more picks/prospects from Anaheim instead of Bonino.

McCann was a good pick, but the package for Kesler was weak. We didn't even know McCann would be available when we made the trade, so it's not like we pulled the trigger when we saw someone we liked available.

We lost value on Kassian
We lost value on Garrison
We lost value on Forsling
We lost value on Kesler
We lost value (arguably) on Bonino
We lost value on Lack
We lost value on McNally
We got zero value on Santorelli
We got zero value on Richardson
We got zero value on Matthias
We got zero value on Schroeder
We got zero value for Corrado
We almost lost Markstrom to waivers, but at least we snuck him through at the right time, but the situation could have been avoided altogether.
We lost value on the Tanev contract. Although it's a good contract, it was pointless to make Tanev 'prove it' again and ended up costing us when we all knew he was the real deal.
We got a bad contract on Sbisa
We got a bad contract on Vey
We got a bad contract on Dorsett
We got a bad contract on Prust
We got a bad contract on Sutter

We got fair value on Bieksa, although he would have been better to keep than Sbisa IMO, or both should be shipped out. Keeping Sbisa over Bieksa is bad, especially when RD are harder to come by.
I like the Baertschi trade, but it doesn't make up for the above.

That's the problem. These little things add up. It might not be a big deal to overpay someone by 500k but when you consistently overpay, 10 overpayments of 500k on your roster is 5M in cap space that could be used on a very solid player.

I don't care if they're middling talents and only worth a 5th round pick, then we should get that 5th round pick instead of a 7th or nothing at all.

Now make a list like this with the same time frame for other teams. See how it pans out

 

[bsjezz]

yeah only a bit of that seems like a legit problem to me.

this isn't a "every little thing you can do to help the team" group. this isn't sleep-science gillis and cap-whiz gilman. i wish it was but it's not.

benning works by having a vision and a budget and guys he likes for the team and making it happen. he has an idea of balance in his team building and he's less afraid of getting "value" from every trade if a move suits the context of the group as a whole.

it'd be a big problem if you got the feeling this vision was infallible and he wasn't willing to move on. but that hasn't been the case as yet: he sucked eggs on vey and with sbisa's icetime i doubt it's long before the same is true of him.

the proof will be in the pudding. i look at the team on the ice and think it can win games. we may have bled value in an abstract sense but we have bled neither our core nor our best prospects. and i feel like we're in a great position to both grow a bit and win some games.

 

[Cupless44]

I would bet my horse kassian would be claimed for ****ing sure. None of this news was out in the open.

You seriously think NHL teams dont know what is going on? Then why did Bergevin sit down with Kassian right after he traded for him and talk to him very clearly about his off ice behaviour in Vancouver?

 

[Intangibos]

You do realize Santorelli was a pending UFA when Benning got there and Schroeder had zero trade value?

I even said you can remove Schroeder from the list. I honestly would have re signed him, and I guess that would have been correct since he had a better year offensively than Vey while playing better than Vey defensively.

Santorelli was a home town guy and could have been re-signed. Why do you think I said we got zero value? We let him walk for no reason.

Now make a list like this with the same time frame for other teams. See how it pans out

You think teams lose that much depth within one year? I guess that would make Gillis an asset management genius since he certainly didn't lose that much quality depth in a single year. Not only that, but Gillis didn't have the option to sell at deadlines early in his tenure because they were actual cup contenders. You can't trade Ehrhoff at the deadline when you're looking to win a cup. When Gillis did let people walk, it was to replace someone like Wellwood with Malhotra. I loved Wellwood, but we needed him in the playoffs and then let him walk to sign Malhotra. That is more acceptable with letting 18 goals in Matthias walk to get Prust. Much more acceptable than moving Garrison so you can get Vey and Sbisa.

 

[Cupless44]

Actually, we do.

http://sportsdocuments.com/2013/07/nhl-substance-abuse-program/

I'll phrase this another way. Here is what we know about Kassian:

- 2 teams have "given up" on him (Buffalo and Vancouver)
- He was drunk at 6AM and (this is the important part) got injured as a result of those actions
- He was placed into Phase 2 of the NHL's substance abuse program. If you read the above link, it outlines things very clearly.
- Kassian was not charged, which means there can only be 1 explanation as to how he got placed into phase 2.
- Information on Kassian's back injury was incredibly tight lipped, moreso than you would expect, particularly for someone "out for the season." If you can't recall this, welp.
- There's this interesting quote,



From the TVA article,



I don't know if you can speak French, but it should be pretty clear what is being said there (former teammates of Kassian on the Sabres/Canucks say he was a "party animal." I don't know what "party animal" means in English, though.

It seems pretty clear to me what is going on. I get that you're a fan of the guy, but a spade's a spade.

Clearly many here have never been to The Warehouse on Granville

 

[F A N]

You seriously think NHL teams dont know what is going on? Then why did Bergevin sit down with Kassian right after he traded for him and talk to him very clearly about his off ice behaviour in Vancouver?

I am not sure if it is a given that every NHL team knows. The substance abuse program is suppose to be "anonymous" but it is a joint NHL/NHLPA program. Is the "list" of players in that program available to every NHL team GM or is that list truly anonymous? If it is the latter, I think it's entirely possible that NHL GMs don't know that Kassian is in the substance abuse program unless Benning tells them.

Anyhow, according to Benning, he told Bergevin about Kassian's situation while talking trade. Does that mean Bergevin didn't know until Benning told him or could Benning simply be clarifying the situation for Bergevin? One thing is clear, Bergevin did know of Kassian's situation prior to the trade and he apparently sat down with Kassian right after to clarify his expectations of him.

 

[Intangibos]

yeah only a bit of that seems like a legit problem to me.

this isn't a "every little thing you can do to help the team" group. this isn't sleep-science gillis and cap-whiz gilman. i wish it was but it's not.

benning works by having a vision and a budget and guys he likes for the team and making it happen. he has an idea of balance in his team building and he's less afraid of getting "value" from every trade if a move suits the context of the group as a whole.

it'd be a big problem if you got the feeling this vision was infallible and he wasn't willing to move on. but that hasn't been the case as yet: he sucked eggs on vey and with sbisa's icetime i doubt it's long before the same is true of him.

the proof will be in the pudding. i look at the team on the ice and think it can win games. we may have bled value in an abstract sense but we have bled neither our core nor our best prospects. and i feel like we're in a great position to both grow a bit and win some games.

I have no problem with Benning having his vision. Although I disagree with it, that's totally acceptable. What isn't acceptable is throwing away everyone who doesn't fit his vision for a loss. You want to keep Miller over Lack? That's questionable at best, but move Lack for a fair price. You think Sbisa is going to be a top 4 guy but you can't fit him? Questionable, but move a guy for fair value to give him a spot. Don't throw away a top 4 defender in Garrison for low value and throw in a pick to boot.

Benning's team could be fantastic, but what could have been is amazing as well.

Bonino over Sutter
Dorsett at 1.5 (fair value), or 2.3 with Kassian over Prust

Edler Tanev
Hamhuis Green
Hutton Garrison

Lack
Markstrom

We could have that D and goaltending at the same cap as what we have now which has Bartkowski and Sbisa in place of Green and Garrison. Even if you want someone other than Green, it's 6M in cap space to spend on a quality defender. Ehrhoff, Martin, whoever. In fact, with Green and Ehrhoff, our D is even on their natural side more than now where we have 5 left defenders.

I'd argue we're better at D, better at goaltending, and honestly better up front with those changes.

If you want to run with Miller, Sbisa and Bartkowski instead, no problem. You better get value though for the players you move to make spots. If you think McCann is going to be better than Sedin and you want to move them, go for it, but don't move them for a couple 3rds because you believe in McCann. If you waste value in every trade, eventually you're not going to be able to acquire the assets to match your vision. If you gain value in every trade, which should be impossible, you will always be able to improve your team and get the players that you vision. Even in trades where we have all the leverage, we end up paying more. Pens had to deal Sutter, and got an equal or superior player in Bonino while the other team adds picks and Bonino has a very good cap hit. It's insane. Sbisa had no leverage, he would probably be playing in Europe this year if we hadn't signed him. We gave him a massive raise. Even if Sbisa does turn into a top 4 guy, we could have signed him to the same term at 1 million surely and been in an excellent place moving forward.

 

[bsjezz]

could you imagine the media carnage if kassian was around all training camp and then waived anyway? ouch.

 

[Cupless44]

in this thread: people getting their hackles raised because it turns out the general manager of an organisation knows more about what's going on within it than they do

And lets face it, if it wasnt Jim Benning but a GM they liked in Vancouver we wouldnt be reading pages of trying to come up with defences for Kassian not being able to keep his life together enough to keep his career on track.

People! Kassian talked about how excited he was for a fresh start to play in hockey mecca Montreal and then before the season even starts angers his NEW GM who talked to Kassian about his behaviour when he acquired him and ****s up royally. He has major issues!

Trevor Linden was very involved with this situation not just Benning btw.

 

[Cupless44]

Being a party animal in of itself isn't necessarily a death knell though. DAL and CHI have put up with partiers like Kane and Seguin because they bring something on the ice: they're good hockey players. It's not black and white because at the end of the day, the goal is to win Stanley Cups and you won't see those teams dump those 2 just because they're known for their off-ice behaviour (going to bars/clubs).

Similarly, VAN can't afford to be dumping good players (Zack Kassian) while they're in the position they are now: a mediocre hockey club that has bled assets and value continuously over the past calendar year. This despite the intention to compete.

On top of that it didn't even help a potential rebuild (losing the 5th). So they got nowhere, really.

Addition by subtraction

 

[Intangibos]

could you imagine the media carnage if kassian was around all training camp and then waived anyway? ouch.

Because in reality Kassian is one of the better forwards on the team and we would all see plain as day that he earned a spot.

Glad we have someone running the team who throws away draft picks in case the fans don't like him anymore . That's just as damning, though. If Kassian gets picked up, it means clearly he's worth at least a conditional 7th, meaning he had some value and we didn't have to pay to get rid of him. We could have got a cond 7th or something and it still would have been a better trade for us. If Kassian clears, nobody would have a leg to stand on, as he clearly had no value around the league. Benning could say he tried to trade him but nobody wanted him, and Kassian clearing waivers would vindicate him.

 

[Intangibos]

Addition by subtraction

Then trade him for a cond 7th. It's a better trade for us. We don't have to pay to get rid of Kassian because if he has so little value he will just clear waivers.

Addition by subtraction doesn't jive, sorry. Unfortunately for some reason this can't be explained to the few of you left.

 

[Cupless44]

in this thread: people getting upset that people dare question the decisions of the general manager.

Sorry, we'll just post supportive things and never form an independent thought when posting here in the future, if such things offend you.

On this board people are quite used to y'all questioning every single thing about the general manager and questioning his intelligence and calling him a moron.

In this thread you are grasping poorly to put blame on Benning for a situation you don't understand.

 

[Cupless44]

Huh? Stage 2 isn't something that the GM decides that a player should try. If Kassian didn't violate the Stage 1 conditions, nobody needed to know that Kassian was in the program. But once Kassian enters Stage 2 he's suspended without pay and only the doctors can reinstate and everyone would know about it.

Wow is Benning ever villified around here.

This thread proves it has reached ridiculous levels. Objectivity out the window, full on witch hunt now.

 

[Cupless44]

I don't think being upset that the team is throwing away players is melodramatic. It's not like Kassian is the only one. That's why this is a big deal. If they bailed on Kassian and that's it, whatever, but they've bailed on so many players it's insane. Benning had so much C depth when he came in and now we have Cracknell on our 4th line.

Henrik
Kesler
Horvat
Richardson
Santorelli
Matthias
Schroeder
Dalpe

Maybe more I can't even remember. We got nothing for most of those players. I actually like Schroeder, but we can remove him and Dalpe from the list, but we still let Santorelli, Matthias and Richardson all walk for nothing, while getting a poor return on Kesler, and in turn getting a poor return for Bonino (in my opinion) who was the return for Kesler It's astonishing how much depth we've lost and that's just at center. Corrado, Stanton, Garrison, Lack, Kassian, Bonino, Forsling(Clendening), Sanguinetti. These are all players that we either lost for nothing, or got a poor return for. Kassian isn't the entire problem, but it's just another player thrown away for questionable reasons. We can say it's because of character, but it's not the first player he's dumped. What about Garrison and Richardson? Were they lacking character? What about Lack? Stanton? Santorelli? It's not Kassian, it's not just the players we've lost already, but we've seen a trend of Benning letting assets walk for nothing or next to it and we're all very concerned about what he loses next. That seems pretty justified in my opinion.

We're constantly bleeding assets. We're not getting absolutely fleeced on every trade, we're not trading the Sedins for 3rd round picks, but this stuff really adds up. Asset management is absolutely vital to being a good GM and Benning has shown he's terribly inept at it. He likes the guys he likes and pays the price to acquire them, but doesn't see any value in the guys he doesn't want and it shows in the trades he makes. He essentially traded Garrison for Vey, and he even threw in a pick. Astonishing.

LOL you are lamenting the loss of Santorelli, Schroeder and DALPE??

Try and pull yourself together. NHL teams are moving on from marginal talents all the time.

 

[WhiteCurse]

I even said you can remove Schroeder from the list. I honestly would have re signed him, and I guess that would have been correct since he had a better year offensively than Vey while playing better than Vey defensively.

Santorelli was a home town guy and could have been re-signed. Why do you think I said we got zero value? We let him walk for no reason.



You think teams lose that much depth within one year? I guess that would make Gillis an asset management genius since he certainly didn't lose that much quality depth in a single year. Not only that, but Gillis didn't have the option to sell at deadlines early in his tenure because they were actual cup contenders. You can't trade Ehrhoff at the deadline when you're looking to win a cup. When Gillis did let people walk, it was to replace someone like Wellwood with Malhotra. I loved Wellwood, but we needed him in the playoffs and then let him walk to sign Malhotra. That is more acceptable with letting 18 goals in Matthias walk to get Prust. Much more acceptable than moving Garrison so you can get Vey and Sbisa.

Ya teams lose players like the ones you listed every year, we made the playoffs last year why would they move those guys. Plus in the "one year " it was 2 of seasons.

Some one get this guy a snickers

 

[Cupless44]

You do realize Santorelli was a pending UFA when Benning got there and Schroeder had zero trade value?

These kind of marginal journeymen get let go every year and go looking for a new team.