Canadian Government Freezing Hockey Canada Funding- (2018 Canada World Jr Team Alleged Sexual Assault)

[Garo]

In the UK its a lot easier to win those types of cases; they are biased towards alleged victims.

That's convenient, did anyone tell Ched Evans about that?

 

[duckpuck]

I don't know what this means. The "believe all victims" thing comes from decades of studies and statistics, not from Hollywood.


Yes.

This is absolutely wrong. Victims of sexual assault cases don't move forward for many, many reasons, ranging from shame and embarrassment to fear of not being believed. Most cases are never even reported. The victim not cooperating means very little as to the veracity of her claims.

One of the parties was sober enough to make sure the victim said on camera that she wasn't drunk and made sure she showered directly after the incident. Those intentions are pretty clear.

"For some strange reason" is, again, decades of statistics and studies. I'm a fully trained mental health RN, I have treated many of these victims and researched this area for years. Victims who come forward in any capacity are overwhelmingly telling the truth, it's not even close. So when you say, "for some strange reason", I would think about that.


They didn't even bother to try and identify the men who were involved, so I would say no, they did not handle this properly.

Absolutely, victims of sexual assault don't come forward for many reasons. But those victims typically don't then file civil suits and when they do, people justifiably ask questions. And in this case, the police investigated but didn't file charges - we don't know why but that again a legitimate question. For all we know, they concluded the evidence supported the players version of events.

You don't actually know if the bolded statement is true - it is an allegation in a lawsuit seeking money. That is the problem - you don't know if this is true but much of your argument is pegged to the idea that you do.

In terms of the statistics, the fact that more alleged victims or not tell the truth is irrelevant to what actually happened in this case. You (and others) want to proceed under the assumption that the statistics tell us anything about this case. They do not. That is why we have courts, trials, and a presumption of innocent.

There are statistics showing that mental health workers such as yourself have a higher incidence of mental illness. Does that mean that I should make that assumption about you specifically? Of course not. But by our logic I certainly could.

Mental disorders among workers in the healthcare industry: 2014 national health insurance data

Numerous studies have shown that healthcare professionals are exposed to psychological distress. However, since most of these studies assessed psychological distress using self-reporting questionnaires, the magnitude of the problem is largely unknown. ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Mental health problems faced by healthcare workers due to the COVID-19 pandemic–A review

The spread of novel corona virus (COVID-19) across the globe and the associated morbidity and mortality challenged the nations by several means. One such underrecognized and unaddressed area is the mental health issues medical staff develop during the ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Static]

Absolutely, victims of sexual assault don't come forward for many reasons. But those victims typically don't then file civil suits and when they do, people justifiably ask questions.

And you know this how? Your extensive experience with the subject?

And in this case, the police investigated but didn't file charges - we don't know why but that again a legitimate question. For all we know, they concluded the evidence supported the players version of events.

They didn't file charges because the victim didn't want to cooperate with the police. I get the feeling you didn't actually read up on this case.

You don't actually know if the bolded statement is true - it is an allegation in a lawsuit seeking money. That is the problem - you don't know if this is true but much of your argument is pegged to the idea that you do.

And again with this insidious framing.

In terms of the statistics, the fact that more alleged victims or not tell the truth is irrelevant to what actually happened in this case. You (and others) want to proceed under the assumption that the statistics tell us anything about this case. They do not. That is why we have courts, trials, and a presumption of innocent.

The statistics are incredibly informing and tell us much about the psychology of an abuse victim and precisely what assumptions not to make. The reality is victims almost never lie and also that the accused are ultimately convicted <10% of the time. What do those stats tell you? It tells women even if this happened to you and you do decide to take it to the authorities you have very little hope the accused is brought to justice. Lawyers know this as well, and you better believe they tell their clients this.

There are statistics showing that mental health workers such as yourself have a higher incidence of mental illness. Does that mean that I should make that assumption about you specifically? Of course not. But by our logic I certainly could.

Mental disorders among workers in the healthcare industry: 2014 national health insurance data

Numerous studies have shown that healthcare professionals are exposed to psychological distress. However, since most of these studies assessed psychological distress using self-reporting questionnaires, the magnitude of the problem is largely unknown. ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Mental health problems faced by healthcare workers due to the COVID-19 pandemic–A review

The spread of novel corona virus (COVID-19) across the globe and the associated morbidity and mortality challenged the nations by several means. One such underrecognized and unaddressed area is the mental health issues medical staff develop during the ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

This is just silly. These studies show ~6% of the people in their research had psych problems. You're comparing that to the 90%+ victims truthful in their accusations? That makes sense to you?

We are not relying on "more likely than not" statistics, these are numbers researched for *decades* that all say the same thing: victims are telling the truth, and also that it doesn't matter.

 

[VP]

And you know this how? Your extensive experience with the subject?

They didn't file charges because the victim didn't want to cooperate with the police. I get the feeling you didn't actually read up on this case.

And again with this insidious framing.

The statistics are incredibly informing and tell us much about the psychology of an abuse victim and precisely what assumptions not to make. The reality is victims almost never lie and also that the accused are ultimately convicted <10% of the time. What do those stats tell you? It tells women even if this happened to you and you do decide to take it to the authorities you have very little hope the accused is brought to justice. Lawyers know this as well, and you better believe they tell their clients this.


This is just silly. These studies show ~6% of the people in their research had psych problems. You're comparing that to the 90%+ victims truthful in their accusations? That makes sense to you?

We are not relying on "more likely than not" statistics, these are numbers researched for *decades* that all say the same thing: victims are telling the truth, and also that it doesn't matter.

 

[Laodongxi]

When does this freeze take effect? Hockey Canada just had a big 2 day fundraiser golf tournament at the Legends on the Niagara.

Hockey Canada Foundation Gala & Golf

The Hockey Canada Foundation’s biggest annual fundraiser, the HCF Gala & Golf celebrates the on-ice accomplishments of Team Canada during the previous season. The Gala also honours Order of Hockey in Canada members and their contributions to the game.

www.hockeycanada.ca

(* Nevermind ... I guess this has nothing to do with Canadian Government funding.)

 

[IslesNorway]

It makes absolutely no sense to think about this in terms of criminality, when it is all about institutional responsiblity, and reform.

Nor is this merely a victim vs. perpetrator situation. I'm like probably tens of thousands of youth sports coaches who go through sexual abuse training. If you do these trainings, you learn that the higher level a youth athlete reaches the higher the chance *the athletes* are subject to sexual abuse. And the means by which that is done to them is precisely like the way the woman who settled described the alleged assault as happening. Isolation, alcohol, assault.

I do think there should be a reckoning, but it definitely should not stop at players on Canada's 2018 WJC team, and it also shouldn't be a vague thing about 'culture'. Really, it's about rules and accountability. And everyone - coaches, adminsitrators, trainers, players, etc. need to be subject to those rules. It shouldn't be mere luck that a player gets professional, accountable, coaches + trainers throughout their youth sports experience.

My speculation, and I don't think it is far-fetched that players who may have been involved have had other incidents that indicated they could do something like that, and/or were victims or witnesses to similar tactics used to victimize their peers.

What needs to happen in these cases is a cleaning of houses at the top, and a thorough review of all staff + very clear rules + accountability standards. If someone associated doesn't like it, get rid of them. I don't personally see the point waiting for an investigation to come out done by an organization before it's reconstittuted.

Agree with this. In the future, HC (or any other governing body) need to take action and ensure this doesn't happen again. Players should be taught proper behaviour at all times, be it with their clubs or country. If they fail to adhere to it, then punishments should be severe. This also goes for coaches too.

 

[HaveKnifeWillButcher]

There isn't so much a rape culture in junior hockey as there is an orgy culture. In every one-horse town across Canada that hosts a CHL team there are hundreds of girls that are more than willing to sexually debase themselves on the slight chance of nabbing themselves a future NHL player. My cousin nabbed herself Nevin Markwart when he was with the Pats which has proven even more lucrative to her post-hockey career.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Agree with this. In the future, HC (or any other governing body) need to take action and ensure this doesn't happen again. Players should be taught proper behaviour at all times, be it with their clubs or country. If they fail to adhere to it, then punishments should be severe. This also goes for coaches too.

There's more to this than Hockey Canada babysitting. This is a problem that has its tentacles in a lot of different issues.

 

[spintheblackcircle]

 

[IslesNorway]

Good. Hope others follow suit.

 

[Mrfenn92]

Will be interesting to see how this all turns out.

 

[Transplanted Caper]

Sponsors beginning to bail is big too. This story won't go away anytime soon, and I expect it to hang over the WJCs this summer. Will be extremely interesting to see how it's covered. Westhead has been fantastic on this, but TSN also loves to wrap that tournament around them and dig deep into the patriotism with it. Going to be hard to do both.

 

[Dr Pepper]

Sponsors beginning to bail is big too. This story won't go away anytime soon, and I expect it to hang over the WJCs this summer. Will be extremely interesting to see how it's covered. Westhead has been fantastic on this, but TSN also loves to wrap that tournament around them and dig deep into the patriotism with it. Going to be hard to do both.

Now now, I'm sure Gord Miller will approach each Team Canada game with the same chest-thumping bravado he usually does.

It would stun me if TSN made any attempt to dial back their enthusiasm for the WJC. I wonder if the Hockey Canada debacle even gets mentioned during the broadcast.

 

[Transplanted Caper]

Now now, I'm sure Gord Miller will approach each Team Canada game with the same chest-thumping bravado he usually does.

It would stun me if TSN made any attempt to dial back their enthusiasm for the WJC. I wonder if the Hockey Canada debacle even gets mentioned during the broadcast.

It's going to be incredibly cringeworthy if and when they don't. If Westhead is there pressing for answers and tweeting out information and the actual broadcast is fawning over some divebar in Flin Flon where everyone's watching some hometown kid, it's going to look incredibly bad.

 

[Dr Pepper]

It's going to be incredibly cringeworthy if and when they don't. If Westhead is there pressing for answers and tweeting out information and the actual broadcast is fawning over some divebar in Flin Flon where everyone's watching some hometown kid, it's going to look incredibly bad.

Well, at least we know there won't be any Scotiabank commercials.

I'm still waiting for that cringeworthy SkipTheDishes ad to finally die.

 

[Benttheknee]

The presumption of innocence is an important legal factor, but statistically innocence in a sexual assault case is very rare. Its weird that people jump on that right away rather than the other way around when victims are telling the truth so overwhelmingly often.

Maybe sit this one out.

This is true in most cases. Would you remove innocent until guilty because of this?

 

[BadgerBruce]

I remained shocked that nobody at Hockey Canada has resigned yet. Scotiabank pulling its sponsorship is the first corporate domino to fall, and there will be others soon. The leaders at HC need to do what’s best for the game they claim to love and immediately step down.

 

[Static]

This is true in most cases. Would you remove innocent until guilty because of this?

The defendant's right to due process of course should not be taken away, but that's never been the issue as most never see jail time. The bigger issue is building a system where victims feel safe enough to come forward and have some faith that justice will be done. Those feelings currently don't exist.

 

[Benttheknee]

The defendant's right to due process of course should not be taken away, but that's never been the issue as most never see jail time. The bigger issue is building a system where victims feel safe enough to come forward and have some faith that justice will be done. Those feelings currently don't exist.

Says who?

How do you correct this?

How do you know when that has been accomplished?

If you don't answer all 3, then figure it out and come back. Complaining is f***ing easy. Any moron can do that. Finding workable solutions? That is the hard part.

 

[Static]

Says who?

How do you correct this?

How do you know when that has been accomplished?

If you don't answer all 3, then figure it out and come back. Complaining is f***ing easy. Any moron can do that. Finding workable solutions? That is the hard part.

I don't know what you mean when you say "says who".

Second, not knowing the solution does not make calling attention to a problem any less necessary, so that's ridiculous.

If I knew how to completely rework the justice system's way of dealing with sexual assault cases as well as exactly how to change the psychology of an entire society you may as well call me God.

I do know the first step is awareness, however. These types of changes take a very long time, but they always build primarily off of awareness and education.

 

[Jeune Poulet]

I remained shocked that nobody at Hockey Canada has resigned yet. Scotiabank pulling its sponsorship is the first corporate domino to fall, and there will be others soon. The leaders at HC need to do what’s best for the game they claim to love and immediately step down.

In a way, it's probably better they didn't resign.

I'm pretty sre that with proper PR and a few resignation, Hockey Canada could have easily made all of this go away.

But they have been so bad at handling this all the way through, that they are actually forcing more and more people to pay attention. This explains why Scotia Bank was so late doing this. This story is getting bigger and bigger thanks to the cluelessness on display, and I hope it goes all the way until it reaches the NHL.

 

[Benttheknee]

I don't know what you mean when you say "says who".

Second, not knowing the solution does not make calling attention to a problem any less necessary, so that's ridiculous.

If I knew how to completely rework the justice system's way of dealing with sexual assault cases as well as exactly how to change the psychology of an entire society you may as well call me God.

I do know the first step is awareness, however. These types of changes take a very long time, but they always build primarily off of awareness and education.

Regarding "Says Who"

You make a statement of fact, but you have no evidence it is true. This is a persuasion technique called "thinking past the sale".

Pointing out a problem and not providing a solution is very counter productive because it can cloud real problems by having people focus on something that is not helpful.

"Raising awareness" is only important when nobody is aware. Who here is not aware and educated? Nobody, so this is not helpful.

This is the issue with some "progressive" thinking. It does not identify real problems. It offers no solutions yet it blames people who do not subscribe to the "progressive" thinking. It is perpetual complaining with no solutions and sows division as well.

So back to the original issue. How does releasing the names of the accused advance anything when it is against well established principles of justice? It does nothing helpful.

 

[Static]

Regarding "Says Who"
You make a statement of fact, but you have no evidence it is true. This is a persuasion technique called "thinking past the sale".

What are you talking about specifically here? I have to know so I can properly cite everything I've said. Nothing I have said can't be backed up.

Pointing out a problem and not providing a solution is very counter productive because it can cloud real problems by having people focus on something that is not helpful.

"Raising awareness" is only important when nobody is aware. Who here is not aware and educated? Nobody, so this is not helpful.

This is pure foolishness. Awareness of a problem is the first step in solving the problem and if you think people are properly educated and aware of a sexual assault victim's psychology vs. societal assumptions then you are blind and deaf. I can't even wrap my brain around how stupid a comment this is.

This is the issue with some "progressive" thinking. It does not identify real problems. It offers no solutions yet it blames people who do not subscribe to the "progressive" thinking. It is perpetual complaining with no solutions and sows division as well.

This is just rambling nonsense. Victims too afraid to report sexual assaults is a problem. Sexual assault cases leading to convictions at astonishingly low rates is a problem. Maybe you should have just added the caveat that it isn't a problem for you, then at least it would make sense.

So back to the original issue. How does releasing the names of the accused advance anything when it is against well established principles of justice? It does nothing helpful.

It's weird because I haven't spoke on this part really at all. But, if there were players who refused to cooperate with the investigation (and there were) I think that should be released. Refusal to cooperate (from the accused point of view) is not historically conducive to innocence.

Even if the victim does not want to cooperate with the police there should be a much higher standard of conduct from the organization's point of view than "no see no tell".

 

[red devil]

Another sponsor is now withdrawing from the World Juniors.

 

[Transplanted Caper]

Scotiabank and Canadian Tire are two big ones. The more this gains momentum, the more others are going to follow suit. It'll be impossible for this WJC to be about just the on-ice product, and that's on Hockey Canada and no one else.