Canadian Government Freezing Hockey Canada Funding- (2018 Canada World Jr Team Alleged Sexual Assault)

[ORRFForever]

You are missing the point entirely. Society needs to move in the direction of believing victims first and foremost, not whatever bullshit you're selling behind the "innocence" facade.

I'm not missing anything.

Everyone is innocent until proven guilty - if you don't like it, that's tough.

 

[Transplanted Caper]

Not to mention, the "presumption of innocence" has no bearing on how poorly and ham fisted the Hockey Canada "investigation" has been, which is at the heart of the matter. It's pretty clear the HC structure and culture is pretty broken.

 

[Static]

Not to mention, the "presumption of innocence" has no bearing on how poorly and ham fisted the Hockey Canada "investigation" has been, which is at the heart of the matter. It's pretty clear the HC structure and culture is pretty broken.

It's an easy thing for people to hide behind while they peddle ignorance. It's changing, very slowly though.

 

[ORRFForever]

It's an easy thing for people to hind behind while they peddle ignorance. It's changing, very slowly though.

Let me know when we are no longer innocent until proven guilty. I won't hold my breath.

 

[Static]

LOL. Let me know when we are no longer innocent until proven guilty. I won't hold my breath.

The opinions you have shared and advocated for in here have little to nothing to do with the presumption of innocence. You took it quite a bit further, saying she wanted it, she shouldn't have been there, and agreeing money was her motivating factor.

"Innocent until proven guilty" may give some nice legal cover to cower behind, but it exposes you morally and quite frankly your incredible ignorance in sexual assault cases. You shouldn't feel so confident sharing those opinions.

 

[ORRFForever]

The opinions you have shared and advocated for in here have little to nothing to do with the presumption of innocence. You took it quite a bit further, saying she wanted it, she shouldn't have been there, and agreeing money was her motivating factor.

"Innocent until proven guilty" may give some nice legal cover to cower behind, but it exposes you morally and quite frankly your incredible ignorance in sexual assault cases. You shouldn't feel so confident sharing those opinions.

I never said she "wanted it" - stop exaggerating because you're angry because I got the best of our debate. I just posted what was reported when the story first came out.

Simply put : The players are innocent until proven guilty. Period.

You can have the last word. Have a good night.

 

[Pink Mist]

I don't care how "rare" it is, we are all innocent until proven guilty - it is the most important legal factor. If you have a problem with it, perhaps Canada (or the U.S.) is not the country for you.

I don't believe I'm currently sitting in a court of law right now. Presumption of Innocence has no bearing on how I should think

 

[ORRFForever]

I don't believe I'm currently sitting in a court of law right now. Presumption of Innocence has no bearing on how I should think

Okay.

 

[Leaf Fans]

You are missing the point entirely. Society needs to move in the direction of believing victims first and foremost, not whatever bullshit you're selling behind the "innocence" facade.

For sure, in an investigation, the victims are and should be believed, but in the Canadian system for the purpose of trial, persumption of innocence is paramount. Some one has to be proven guilty, by ( what is expected to be) beyond a reasonable doubt. People cannot be guilty by accusation or by the question why would------ lie?

 

[MarkusKetterer]

I don't care how "rare" it is, we are all innocent until proven guilty - it is the most important legal factor. If you have a problem with it, perhaps Canada (or the U.S.) is not the country for you.

This might be shocking to you, but society can A: believe a woman is telling the truth about sexual assault AND B: not vilify some dude(s) simultaneously.

It doesn’t have to be “a woman automatically is lying”, “the guy(s) are indeed rapists” or “the woman just wants money”.

 

[Reddwit]

I'm not missing anything.

Everyone is innocent until proven guilty - if you don't like it, that's tough.

What a crock to stand behind. You know what else happens in criminal investigations while that presumption of innocence is intact? A discussion of the evidence and its merits. Exactly what everyone is doing here. Get over yourself.

Can’t believe some people in here think this women is being disingenuous in a situation where EIGHT guys were implicated.

Personally, I know whenever I try to fabricate fraudulent claims, I like to make sure it’s my claims versus those of EIGHT other people. Love me some 8 against 1.

 

[BadgerBruce]

The innocent people should simply publicly declare, “I had absolutely nothing to do with this.”

That’s what Cal Foote did.

That’s what Dante Fabbro did.

That’s what Victor Mete did.

That’s what Jonah Gadjovich did.

That’s what Cale Makar did.

It’s not hard. Obviously, those five guys aren’t violating any NDAs. In most cases, their agents issued the public statements.

Innocent until proven guilty? Sure, but why not help yourself a little bit and just say “not me, look elsewhere”?

 

[duckpuck]

The presumption of innocence is an important legal factor, but statistically innocence in a sexual assault case is very rare. Its weird that people jump on that right away rather than the other way around when victims are telling the truth so overwhelmingly often.

Maybe sit this one out.

We don't convict people - in court or the court of public opinion - based on statistics.

You are missing the point entirely. Society needs to move in the direction of believing victims first and foremost, not whatever bullshit you're selling behind the "innocence" facade.

In case you missed it, the believe all victims thing went away. in part because many prominent women were critical of it. It was some point between Tara Reade accusing Joe Biden of some bad stuff and the Depp/Heard trial.

The accusations of all women (all alleged victims) MUST be taken seriously, fully investigated, and where appropriate resolved in a court of law (criminal or civil, as applicable). Special care should be taken to ensure that alleged victims of sexual assault have a safe, nonjudgmental, and supportive place to make their allegations and receive whatever medical/mental care they need.

That doesn't mean we operate from a position of assuming we know what happened or, for that matter, whether someone is telling the truth. We don't presumptively believe or disbelieve victims or alleged criminals - at least not in places where there's due process.

People on this board know very little (obviously, myself included). It appears, based on published reports, that the women complained to HC, HC promptly reported the incident to police, the alleged victim refused to cooperate with police (red flag) and/or HC, and then instead filed a civil claim for money. Does that mean she's lying? No. Does it raise some reasonable questions about the accuracy of her claims and her motivations - absolutely.

There's also the very real possibility that because the parties were extremely drunk, recollections, intentions, words, and actions were less than clear and remain so.

Again, we don't know what happened. I'm not prepared to call the alleged victim a liar or assume that any of the players are rapists. We don't know - yet people here assume they do for some strange reason.

I think it is very fair to question whether HC handled this properly. They reported it to police apparently and sought more information from the alleged victim, who refused to cooperate. They then settled. What happened after that is unclear and needs to be explored. Did they do their reasonable best to investigate notwithstanding the women's lack of cooperation?

I also would like to know more about the police investigation. The victim's lack of cooperation should not have caused the investigation to stop (though it could be a reason for not prosecuting). The police should have statements from players, texts, messages, videos, etc.

 

[wetcoast]

Yeah, I've seeen you and a couple of other people insisting on framing this in the worst possible light for the victim. You should be ashamed.

Read this gut-wrenching TSN report again.

Hockey Canada, CHL settle lawsuit over alleged sexual assault involving World Junior players - TSN.ca

A woman who alleged she was sexually assaulted by eight Canadian Hockey League players, including members of Canada’s gold medal-winning 2017-18 World Junior team, has agreed to drop a lawsuit against the players, Hockey Canada, and the CHL after reaching a settlement.

www.tsn.ca

It details not only in reat detail the abject way the victim was treated but also clearly state:

The John Doe defendants pressured her to not report the players to police and to not cooperate with a criminal investigation after it was initiated.




Wow... I like how you frame the issue: The poor young men facing "alcohol and women out there".

Like, do you live in the 50s? Next you're going to tell us about the evils of temptations like mini-skirts and tank tops.

People like you are the problem.

From your first post I might have guessed that you judge and jump to conclusions easily but this confirms it.

I wasn't framing the victim in the worst light possible, it's simply a fact that when the police opened an investigation she didn't want to talk to them, this is outlined in the report you posted in the link here

“The person bringing the allegations forward chose not to speak with either police or with Hockey Canada’s independent investigator and also chose not to identify the players involved. This was her right, and we fully respect her wishes. We have settled this matter and as part of that settlement, we will not be commenting further.”

The points I bring up is not to isolate that if we just focus on the hockey culture problem then the world will be all right for our daughters, sisters and friends who are female there are larger societal issues at play here but instead you take the easy way out and try to name call others.

Like I said it's easy to judge and cast blame, it's much harder to have a dialogue to get at the root of the problem when people have attitudes such as yours here.

Your last 3 sentences show that you have made up your mind and are being judgmental as you have no idea, nor did it seem, that you could be bothered to actually read and comprehend what I wrote, it's all about grandstanding and assuming that you actually knew exactly what went on and why everyone acted the way they did, when it's simply guessing.

Also so you won't resort to name calling, I'm know there is a problem with a small, extremely small, subgroup of young male elite athletes in every team sport in regards to events like this but to call it a "hockey culture problem" is missing the mark here.

 

[wetcoast]

You are missing the point entirely. Society needs to move in the direction of believing victims first and foremost, not whatever bullshit you're selling behind the "innocence" facade.

Then maybe you might listen to the victims words here?

Hockey Canada, CHL settle lawsuit over alleged sexual assault involving World Junior players - TSN.ca

A woman who alleged she was sexually assaulted by eight Canadian Hockey League players, including members of Canada’s gold medal-winning 2017-18 World Junior team, has agreed to drop a lawsuit against the players, Hockey Canada, and the CHL after reaching a settlement.

www.tsn.ca

“The person bringing the allegations forward chose not to speak with either police or with Hockey Canada’s independent investigator and also chose not to identify the players involved. This was her right, and we fully respect her wishes. We have settled this matter and as part of that settlement, we will not be commenting further.”

Also the poster you are responding to brings up an important point and perhaps the legal system should apply the law, instead of a bunch of people on the internet?

But instead you will make some ridiculous argument about my character like you are doing with the poster you are responding to here in this post that I'm quoting made by you.

Sadly I don't think that you understand the meaning of the presumption of innocence if you are called it a bullshit façade.

 

[Static]

In case you missed it, the believe all victims thing went away. in part because many prominent women were critical of it. It was some point between Tara Reade accusing Joe Biden of some bad stuff and the Depp/Heard trial.

I don't know what this means. The "believe all victims" thing comes from decades of studies and statistics, not from Hollywood.

The accusations of all women (all alleged victims) MUST be taken seriously, fully investigated, and where appropriate resolved in a court of law (criminal or civil, as applicable). Special care should be taken to ensure that alleged victims of sexual assault have a safe, nonjudgmental, and supportive place to make their allegations and receive whatever medical/mental care they need.

Yes.

That doesn't mean we operate from a position of assuming we know what happened or, for that matter, whether someone is telling the truth. We don't presumptively believe or disbelieve victims or alleged criminals - at least not in places where there's due process.

People on this board know very little (obviously, myself included). It appears, based on published reports, that the women complained to HC, HC promptly reported the incident to police, the alleged victim refused to cooperate with police (red flag) and/or HC, and then instead filed a civil claim for money. Does that mean she's lying? No. Does it raise some reasonable questions about the accuracy of her claims and her motivations - absolutely.

This is absolutely wrong. Victims of sexual assault cases don't move forward for many, many reasons, ranging from shame and embarrassment to fear of not being believed. Most cases are never even reported. The victim not cooperating means very little as to the veracity of her claims.

There's also the very real possibility that because the parties were extremely drunk, recollections, intentions, words, and actions were less than clear and remain so.

One of the parties was sober enough to make sure the victim said on camera that she wasn't drunk and made sure she showered directly after the incident. Those intentions are pretty clear.

Again, we don't know what happened. I'm not prepared to call the alleged victim a liar or assume that any of the players are rapists. We don't know - yet people here assume they do for some strange reason.

"For some strange reason" is, again, decades of statistics and studies. I'm a fully trained mental health RN, I have treated many of these victims and researched this area for years. Victims who come forward in any capacity are overwhelmingly telling the truth, it's not even close. So when you say, "for some strange reason", I would think about that.

I think it is very fair to question whether HC handled this properly. They reported it to police apparently and sought more information from the alleged victim, who refused to cooperate. They then settled. What happened after that is unclear and needs to be explored. Did they do their reasonable best to investigate notwithstanding the women's lack of cooperation?

I also would like to know more about the police investigation. The victim's lack of cooperation should not have caused the investigation to stop (though it could be a reason for not prosecuting). The police should have statements from players, texts, messages, videos, etc.

They didn't even bother to try and identify the men who were involved, so I would say no, they did not handle this properly.

 

[red devil]

NHL expected to compel players to cooperate according to a player agent. I'm guessing this will be for the NHL investigation.

 

[Voight]

Let me know when we are no longer innocent until proven guilty. I won't hold my breath.

In the medias mind everyone is guilty until proven innocent.

 

[Voight]

You are missing the point entirely. Society needs to move in the direction of believing victims first and foremost, not whatever bullshit you're selling behind the "innocence" facade.

I don't disagree, but everyone believed Amber Heard and as a result Johnny Depp was ostracized from his peers and barely got any work until years later when he was cleared by the courts.

 

[joestevens29]

I'm all for this and think they should be held accountable, every single f***ing one of them.

But if the name of the victim is released at some point due to this it is not okay.

If the victim would have rather taken the settlement and this all went away in order to not be publicly named it would be a travesty for her wishes to not be granted in order for other people to have temporary moment of rejoice for the individuals being named.

The travesty is going to be when it comes out one of these individuals didn't just do this to her, but others as well.

Who knows maybe this was a one of incident where she was the only victim, but often sexual offenders don't just offend once

The innocent people should simply publicly declare, “I had absolutely nothing to do with this.”

That’s what Cal Foote did.

That’s what Dante Fabbro did.

That’s what Victor Mete did.

That’s what Jonah Gadjovich did.

That’s what Cale Makar did.

It’s not hard. Obviously, those five guys aren’t violating any NDAs. In most cases, their agents issued the public statements.

Innocent until proven guilty? Sure, but why not help yourself a little bit and just say “not me, look elsewhere”?

How do NDAs work with regards to an agent? Couldn't an agent for a player just come out and say my client wasn't involved?

 

[DingerMcSlapshot]

Hope the woman comes forward and names people and involved players and team management. Lawsuits and some canceling of individuals involved. If all us true if so multiple millions lawsuit. Hockey Canada will never be the same again. Sicking story.

 

[saintunspecified]

It makes absolutely no sense to think about this in terms of criminality, when it is all about institutional responsiblity, and reform.

Nor is this merely a victim vs. perpetrator situation. I'm like probably tens of thousands of youth sports coaches who go through sexual abuse training. If you do these trainings, you learn that the higher level a youth athlete reaches the higher the chance *the athletes* are subject to sexual abuse. And the means by which that is done to them is precisely like the way the woman who settled described the alleged assault as happening. Isolation, alcohol, assault.

I do think there should be a reckoning, but it definitely should not stop at players on Canada's 2018 WJC team, and it also shouldn't be a vague thing about 'culture'. Really, it's about rules and accountability. And everyone - coaches, adminsitrators, trainers, players, etc. need to be subject to those rules. It shouldn't be mere luck that a player gets professional, accountable, coaches + trainers throughout their youth sports experience.

My speculation, and I don't think it is far-fetched that players who may have been involved have had other incidents that indicated they could do something like that, and/or were victims or witnesses to similar tactics used to victimize their peers.

What needs to happen in these cases is a cleaning of houses at the top, and a thorough review of all staff + very clear rules + accountability standards. If someone associated doesn't like it, get rid of them. I don't personally see the point waiting for an investigation to come out done by an organization before it's reconstittuted.

 

[ChuckLefley]

You conveniently left out the important word Alleged from your entire rant. As in Alleged victim, Alleged rapists.

Fact is that her priority was a payday, not to go to the police, or to a hospital, but to a lawyer. So let's put the pitchforks down like we know what's actually happened.

1) You clearly don’t know anything about what it’s like for a rape victim to have to go to trial.
2) I like how you say “alleged” when it comes to victim and rapists, but then use the word “fact” when you talk about her motivation. That says everything we need to know.

 

[Garo]

I don't disagree, but everyone believed Amber Heard and as a result Johnny Depp was ostracized from his peers and barely got any work until years later when he was cleared by the courts.

Very different matter though as this was civil, and not entirely correct. Depp was awarded a - partial - win by an US jury, but lost twice to an UK court. That trial however, was not intended to prove sexual assault and really did not prove it did not happen either.

 

[Voight]

Very different matter though as this was civil, and not entirely correct. Depp was awarded a - partial - win by an US jury, but lost twice to an UK court. That trial however, was not intended to prove sexual assault and really did not prove it did not happen either.

In the UK its a lot easier to win those types of cases; they are biased towards alleged victims.

My point is, its not always fair to just believe the victim and it can ruin the life of their alleged accuser. Now in this case I completely side with her as a settlement more often than not admits to some degree of a guilt (tho big organizations such as HC often settle stuff as soon as they can to move on with thins)