Can Bedard challenge for Peter Forsbergs record?

[canadianmagpie]

To bad he got injured, he has great instincts and tools.

Btw, does Bedards points in the cancelled jwc counts? He did pretty darn well a year ago.

The wins/losses for teams don't count, but the points for the players do if I'm right.

 

[SwedishFire]

The wins/losses for teams don't count, but the points for the players do if I'm right.

Thats kind of weird though

 

[SwedishFire]

To compare, Bure has 27 goals. Ruzicka had 25 goals in total. Bedard has 16. He need eleven more goals to reach Bures numbers.

 

[Happyhary9]

Well, Forsberg was a small and lean stature at 17, he really grown first at 18. But then he really grewn big..
He said in an interview as a junior played against russians, he just fall when he bump into them. Then he understand that he has to put a lot of muscles on.

A little side story.
Anyways - the jump Forsberg took between 17 -19 was something special, very few takes such big leaps in developement.

Forsberg kinda exploded at a 17 year old, not uncommon for kids to do. He was already in to the SEL at 17. He played on Swedens Nation team as a 18 year old. He was never some runt playing in the Jr's. He was like 5'11/6' 170 as a 17 year old.

Look Forsberg was a beast. But it really was a perfect storm as to why he scored 31 points in a single WJC. He was an rare case of an elite prospect playing at 19. The 93 tournament was watered down some, had Japan, fall of the Soviet Union, and NHL expansion. He also had another top 19 year old on his wing in Näslund. Who he had unreal chemistry with due to the fact they had played together since high school.

I don't get the whole he made huge leaps from 17-19. He was in the SEL as a 17 year old and put up 17 points in 23 games. He made the normal leaps of a 17 to 19 year old kid.

 

[SwedishFire]

Forsberg kinda exploded at a 17 year old, not uncommon for kids to do. He was already in to the SEL at 17. He played on Swedens Nation team as a 18 year old. He was never some runt playing in the Jr's. He was like 5'11/6' 170 as a 17 year old.

Look Forsberg was a beast. But it really was a perfect storm as to why he scored 31 points in a single WJC. He was an rare case of an elite prospect playing at 19. The 93 tournament was watered down some, had Japan, fall of the Soviet Union, and NHL expansion. He also had another top 19 year old on his wing in Näslund. Who he had unreal chemistry with due to the fact they had played together since high school.

I don't get the whole he made huge leaps from 17-19. He was in the SEL as a 17 year old and put up 17 points in 23 games. He made the normal leaps of a 17 to 19 year old kid.

I remember him going from promising to flat out the leader of the team that year 92-93,as a 18 year old. He had an growth Ive never seen. Only Zetterberg and E Pettersson is close to comparable of how dominat he was as a junior.

The NHL expansion didnt affect on that tourney that much. Canada had a good team.
Russia had a good team, and Cezh had a good team.
All teams had a 1st line, but what maked Forsberg such a beast is that he both had technichal brilliance and elite passing, and physichality as a grown man. That maked him a beast, almost a man among boys, and was so hard to stop. Only violence was the way to stop him, and maybe some better skating Canadian D would be able to injure him to stop him, now the D was to slow. Though Chris Pronger was in the lineup.

 

[Happyhary9]

To compare, Bure has 27 goals. Ruzicka had 25 goals in total. Bedard has 16. He need eleven more goals to reach Bures numbers.

Bure's 27 goal total is another record that probably won't ever be broken. Nobody of his talent will play as a 17,18,and 19 year old anymore. Bure was on the Red Army team as like a 16 year old. If the kid was not Russian he would have been in the NHL at 18.

 

[SwedishFire]

Bure's 27 goal total is another record that probably won't ever be broken. Nobody of his talent will play as a 17,18,and 19 year old anymore. Bure was on the Red Army team as like a 16 year old. If the kid was not Russian he would have been in the NHL at 18.

Well, thats true. But there is some kids, line Owen Power who likes to take an extra year. I myself find that smart. Like, they are 18 years old. You have important growth ahead. No need to rush into NHL, play in juniors, play university for a year, play in a european league for picking up a wider range in your game. Like Matthews and Bedard did while Covid. More Canadians should go to play in europe for a year,in younger age, that would benefit them.

But say you play at 17, you score some. You play a year more in your league and plays jwc as a 18 and really light it up. Forsberg did that too. But he said he want to stay a year more to both build himself up, both take a gold in the national hockey league with his childhood team (Modo).
So say a prospect is wise to do that too, and he gets his 3rd try at jwc.

I think many prospects would benwfit of staying an extra year outside NHL to grow themselfs and their game
A lot of europeans do that, and they are often a more complete player than north american players who just comes down to AHL.

 

[Happyhary9]

I remember him going from promising to flat out the leader of the team that year 92-93,as a 18 year old. He had an growth Ive never seen. Only Zetterberg and E Pettersson is close to comparable of how dominat he was as a junior.

The NHL expansion didnt affect on that tourney that much. Canada had a good team.
Russia had a good team, and Cezh had a good team.
All teams had a 1st line, but what maked Forsberg such a beast is that he both had technichal brilliance and elite passing, and physichality as a grown man. That maked him a beast, almost a man among boys, and was so hard to stop. Only violence was the way to stop him, and maybe some better skating Canadian D would be able to injure him to stop him, now the D was to slow. Though Chris Pronger was in the lineup.

92-93 was his 19 year old year. He was a already a #1 center in the SEL by the time of the WJC.

In 91-92 he was 18. He was a great player then as well. Top center on his SEL team. The reason he didn't but up bigger #s (still had 11 points)in the 91 WJC is because Sweden went with the 19 year old Nylander as their #1 center between Näslund and Rendberg.

It wasn't some great uncommon leap for Forsberg between 91 to 92. It was he got better like most kids do from 18 to 19, but the biggest difference was his increased role on Sweden. Now to me in 91 Sweden made a mistake, I think Forsberg should have been the number 1 center (IIRC he did get Näslund on his wing at times and a lot of PP time), but Sweden went with thunder Nylander.

 

[SwedishFire]

92-93 was his 19 year old year. He was a already a #1 center in the SEL by the time of the WJC.

In 91-92 he was 18. He was a great player then as well. Top center on his SEL team. The reason he didn't but up bigger #s (still had 11 points)in the 91 WJC is because Sweden went with the 19 year old Nylander as their #1 center between Näslund and Rendberg.

It wasn't some great uncommon leap for Forsberg between 91 to 92. It was he got better like most kids do from 18 to 19, but the biggest difference was his increased role on Sweden. Now to me in 91 Sweden made a mistake, I think Forsberg should have been the number 1 center (IIRC he did get Näslund on his wing at times and a lot of PP time), but Sweden went with thunder Nylander.

Well, Nylander won the scoring race with pretty significant numbers anyway.

The thing with Forsberg, or Forceberg if you want, is that he wss defensi ly great as well, while scoring 3-4pt/game(depending if you want to count in/out the japan game) pace.

I dont think Bedard will have the same wellrounded game Forsberg had, at 19.
OfC I dont know, but thats what I read of. I also doubt that Bedard would redo in a SEL like league what Forsbrrg did, or Zetterberg did. Bedards offenive talent is on pair with Zetterberg, Näslund, and almost Bure. I would rank a tad higher, higher upside. But his overall talent is bleak compared to 2 way beasts as Forsberg and Zetterberg.

 

[Happyhary9]

Well, thats true. But there is some kids, line Owen Power who likes to take an extra year. I myself find that smart. Like, they are 18 years old. You have important growth ahead. No need to rush into NHL, play in juniors, play university for a year, play in a european league for picking up a wider range in your game. Like Matthews and Bedard did while Covid. More Canadians should go to play in europe for a year,in younger age, that would benefit them.

But say you play at 17, you score some. You play a year more in your league and plays jwc as a 18 and really light it up. Forsberg did that too. But he said he want to stay a year more to both build himself up, both take a gold in the national hockey league with his childhood team (Modo).
So say a prospect is wise to do that too, and he gets his 3rd try at jwc.

I think many prospects would benwfit of staying an extra year outside NHL to grow themselfs and their game
A lot of europeans do that, and they are often a more complete player than north american players who just comes down to AHL.

Oh I agree exactly what you are saying most players can/need some extra time. Power is kinda bad example as most Dmen take longer.

Forsberg was kinda that end between prospect. He wasn't really a generation type prospect at the time but he was definitely good enough to play in the NHL at 18. And was definitely ready at 19.

There will always be debates on who had the best WJC year, because not all factors are equal. Is Gretzky scoring 17 at 16 in 6 games more impressive then Forsberg scoring 31 at 19 in 7 games? Each there own I guess. And depending on how the next couple games go, I think Bedard is entering the discussion.

 

[SwedishFire]

Oh I agree exactly what you are saying most players can/need some extra time. Power is kinda bad example as most Dmen take longer.

Forsberg was kinda that end between prospect. He wasn't really a generation type prospect at the time but he was definitely good enough to play in the NHL at 18. And was definitely ready at 19.

There will always be debates on who had the best WJC year, because not all factors are equal. Is Gretzky scoring 17 at 16 in 6 games more impressive then Forsberg scoring 31 at 19 in 7 games? Each there own I guess. And depending on how the next couple games go, I think Bedard is entering the discussion.

I hate the Gretzky goal in Jwc, when his teammate interfere the goalie (tripping him). Just that downplay it for me. A true sportsman would tell the ref that they interfered the goalie badly.

So I would like to rank Bedards tourment higher than Gretzky, cause Bedards goals are cleaner. But Gretzky really played smart as a 16 year old.
Bedard certainly is up there. Helminen had a 24p campaigne, on a team Finland who was a lower tier team.

Bedard is more dynamic than Tavares, and better finnisher than Eberle. Then we have Shenn, Hodgeson and Lindros tourments. But Bedard beats out Tavares and Eberle for me, but vs Gretz or Schenn- I cant tell.

 

[Happyhary9]

Well, Nylander won the scoring race with pretty significant numbers anyway.

The thing with Forsberg, or Forceberg if you want, is that he wss defensi ly great as well, while scoring 3-4pt/game(depending if you want to count in/out the japan game) pace.

I dont think Bedard will have the same wellrounded game Forsberg had, at 19.
OfC I dont know, but thats what I read of. I also doubt that Bedard would redo in a SEL like league what Forsbrrg did, or Zetterberg did. Bedards offenive talent is on pair with Zetterberg, Näslund, and almost Bure. I would rank a tad higher, higher upside. But his overall talent is bleak compared to 2 way beasts as Forsberg and Zetterberg.

Bedard is definitely the best prospect out of all those guys (not that it is a guarantee that he will be better). It is Bedards hockey IQ that is just unreal and his shot as well. The weight and accuracy he can get on his shot from multiple angles is just unreal.

 

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaa]

I'll be honest, records at this tournament are kind of dumb. I'm happy for the kid, but the format, quality of competition and a thousand other variables make it almost pointless to compare anything.

 

[SwedishFire]

Bedard is definitely the best prospect out of all those guys (not that it is a guarantee that he will be better). It is Bedards hockey IQ that is just unreal and his shot as well. The weight and accuracy he can get on his shot from multiple angles is just unreal.

I def. Rank his shot as the biggest strength. Then skating, then offensive instincts. Then he has a good playmaking. His vision isnt McDavid , Gretzky, Forsberg tier. I rank 19 year old Forsberg clearly as a better prospect. And there is reason the rank a 17 year old Lindros as a better prospect, just a better all around game. McDavid clearly a better prospect too. Bedard is Stamkos level, and if things continue to go well, a Bure type.

 

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaa]

I def. Rank his shot as the biggest strength. Then skating, then offensive instincts. Then he has a good playmaking. His vision isnt McDavid , Gretzky, Forsberg tier. I rank 19 year old Forsberg clearly as a better prospect. And there is reason the rank a 17 year old Lindros as a better prospect, just a better all around game. McDavid clearly a better prospect too. Bedard is Stamkos level, and if things continue to go well, a Bure type.

I disagree with a lot of your analysis.

Pros:
Hockey IQ (ofensive instincts)
Lethal shot
Vision
Determination
Creativity

Cons:
Skating speed (agility and edges are great through)
Size
Defence
Strength

His vision is as good if not better than McDavid and Forsberg at this age. He's a completely different player than Forsberg or Lindros. Barring injury, he'll end his career with twice as many NHL points as Forsberg or Lindros. Whether or not he manages to stay healthy is an issue unless he grows up and out.

 

[Toby91ca]

I hate the Gretzky goal in Jwc, when his teammate interfere the goalie (tripping him). Just that downplay it for me. A true sportsman would tell the ref that they interfered the goalie badly.

So I would like to rank Bedards tourment higher than Gretzky, cause Bedards goals are cleaner. But Gretzky really played smart as a 16 year old.
Bedard certainly is up there. Helminen had a 24p campaigne, on a team Finland who was a lower tier team.

Bedard is more dynamic than Tavares, and better finnisher than Eberle. Then we have Shenn, Hodgeson and Lindros tourments. But Bedard beats out Tavares and Eberle for me, but vs Gretz or Schenn- I cant tell.

Similar to Forsberg....Helminen was 19....few months from 20 playing in that tournament. At the same age, Gretzky was putting up 164pts in the NHL.

 

[Toby91ca]

Well, Nylander won the scoring race with pretty significant numbers anyway.

The thing with Forsberg, or Forceberg if you want, is that he wss defensi ly great as well, while scoring 3-4pt/game(depending if you want to count in/out the japan game) pace.

I dont think Bedard will have the same wellrounded game Forsberg had, at 19.
OfC I dont know, but thats what I read of. I also doubt that Bedard would redo in a SEL like league what Forsbrrg did, or Zetterberg did. Bedards offenive talent is on pair with Zetterberg, Näslund, and almost Bure. I would rank a tad higher, higher upside. But his overall talent is bleak compared to 2 way beasts as Forsberg and Zetterberg.

I'm trying to get past your comment that Bedard's offensive talent is on par with Zetterberg and Naslund.....

 

[Czechboy]

Well? What does he need tomorrow to break it?

 

[novisor]

Well? What does he need tomorrow to break it?

I believe he is at 23 now, so 9 to break it?

 

[Czechboy]

I believe he is at 23 now, so 9 to break it?

Thank you.

 

[Mickey Marner]

I believe he is at 23 now, so 9 to break it?

I’ll settle for two points to pass Naslund and a gold medal.

 

[bobholly39]

I was cautiously optimistic he would do it, but he needed a minimum of 4, ideally 5 points against US, and only got 2... He now needs 9 points in the gold medal game to beat the record, which obviously seems unattainable.

Flipside is - if somehow he were to beat it - it would certainly be one of the greatest games of all-time! 9 points in a gold medal game? Insane.

I won't completely write it off just yet

 

[Gold Standard]

I was cautiously optimistic he would do it, but he needed a minimum of 4, ideally 5 points against US, and only got 2... He now needs 9 points in the gold medal game to beat the record, which obviously seems unattainable.

Flipside is - if somehow he were to beat it - it would certainly be one of the greatest games of all-time! 9 points in a gold medal game? Insane.

I won't completely write it off just yet

Doesn't matter really. He has put in a tournament for the ages. The single best one man performance I've seen at this tournament since 1986. That's the year I started watching.

 

[Voight]

Well, thats true. But there is some kids, line Owen Power who likes to take an extra year. I myself find that smart. Like, they are 18 years old. You have important growth ahead. No need to rush into NHL, play in juniors, play university for a year, play in a european league for picking up a wider range in your game. Like Matthews and Bedard did while Covid. More Canadians should go to play in europe for a year,in younger age, that would benefit them.

But say you play at 17, you score some. You play a year more in your league and plays jwc as a 18 and really light it up. Forsberg did that too. But he said he want to stay a year more to both build himself up, both take a gold in the national hockey league with his childhood team (Modo).
So say a prospect is wise to do that too, and he gets his 3rd try at jwc.

I think many prospects would benwfit of staying an extra year outside NHL to grow themselfs and their game
A lot of europeans do that, and they are often a more complete player than north american players who just comes down to AHL.

Its not often guys make the team before they are drafted, at least when it comes to Canada. Usually one or two of the top prospects in the upcoming draft will get a shot.

Also in Power's case, yes he did take an extra year but he also didn't make the WJC until after he was drafted.

To bad he got injured, he has great instincts and tools.

Btw, does Bedards points in the cancelled jwc counts? He did pretty darn well a year ago.

Yes, otherwise he'd have tied the points record last night (8 points in 2022, 23 points in 2023) and would have 13 WJC goals as of today.

 

[JAS 39 Gripen]

I disagree with a lot of your analysis.

Pros:
Hockey IQ (ofensive instincts)
Lethal shot
Vision
Determination
Creativity

Cons:
Skating speed (agility and edges are great through)
Size
Defence
Strength

His vision is as good if not better than McDavid and Forsberg at this age. He's a completely different player than Forsberg or Lindros. Barring injury, he'll end his career with twice as many NHL points as Forsberg or Lindros. Whether or not he manages to stay healthy is an issue unless he grows up and out.

He’s a f***ing kid playing against kids! Stop comparing his skills to legends already. Saying that this kid has better vision than the guy with most A/PG after Gretzky, Mario and Orr, based on his play vs kids is just hilarious