Can Bedard challenge for Peter Forsbergs record?

[Toby91ca]

As i pointed out, orher than japan forsberg played tougher teams than bedard

How are you comparing level of competition ? Did you watch the 92/93 tournament? I did….quoting countries isn’t that helpful, Finland wasn’t good then, Russia wasn’t very good, Germany was very bad, US was continuing to improve, but not nearly as good as recent US teams…..but again, I really done care about any of that….you are comparing a guy in his 3rd year of pro hockey to a guy in his 2nd full junior season….to me, regardless of point record, Bedard’s performance thus far is….better might not be the correct term…perhaps “more significant “ or something like that.

 

[Janvonpobben]

How are you comparing level of competition ? Did you watch the video 92/93 tournament? I did….quoting countries isn’t that helpful, Finland wasn’t good then, Russia wasn’t very good, Germany was very bad, US was continuing to improve, but not nearly as good as recent US teams…..but again, I really done care about any of that….you are comparing a guy in his 3rd year of pro hockey to a guy in his 2nd full junior season….to me, regardless of point record, Bedard’s performance thus far is….better might not be the correct term…perhaps “more significant “ or something like that.

Wjc competition in 1993 was very good. Atleast russia played unlike 2022.

2022 is not a best of best because lack of russia.

 

[SwedishFire]

Two games to go (potentially) and 10 points to tie, 11 to beat Forsberg

I still say he does it

Gutsy.
It gets harder and harder.

Id say he scores 6 points. He then what, is 2nd all time for one season?

 

[ZEBROA]

We aren’t, or at least I’m not talking about whether Bedard is better or will have a better career than Forsberg, I’m simply looking at what Bedard is doing as a 17 year old in this tournament vs what Forsberg did at 19….in absolute isolation.

Quick comment on whether Forsberg would thrive in a faster era, completely off topic, but I’m not so sure, he worked well in a slower, tougher game, though his body didn’t hold up. Speed was not one of his strengths

You would be surprised how much two three dudes hanging round your neck slow u down He was born with a deformed foot. But even when injured he was better then most players, due to passing skills and hockey iq.

That said. Forsberg was never talked about as the next one. Bedard is and should destroy all other records if that is true. Let us have this one, if we get it, it is not over, he might take the Forsberg record too.

 

[Statsy]

Actually Canadians view the WJC is viewed as a glorified exhibition series that is a fun break from the real hockey being played in the CHL and NHL.

Ummm.... what? What the hell are you talking about?!

 

[Statsy]

How are you comparing level of competition ? Did you watch the video 92/93 tournament? I did….quoting countries isn’t that helpful, Finland wasn’t good then, Russia wasn’t very good, Germany was very bad, US was continuing to improve, but not nearly as good as recent US teams…..but again, I really done care about any of that….you are comparing a guy in his 3rd year of pro hockey to a guy in his 2nd full junior season….to me, regardless of point record, Bedard’s performance thus far is….better might not be the correct term…perhaps “more significant “ or something like that.

This is correct, except that Russia was always a powerhouse. They've NEVER been a weak team.

I would say that the two tournaments have a very similar level of competition. One big difference, however, is that Bedard still has two very hard teams to play, whereas Sweden was playing teams that were already out of it towards the end of the tourney.

 

[bobholly39]

Gutsy.
It gets harder and harder.

Id say he scores 6 points. He then what, is 2nd all time for one season?

24 is the 2nd all-time. He has 21 already, so he only needs 3 to tie, 4 to pass it.

 

[Happyhary9]

All this talk about japan when bedard statspadded a useless germany and austria

I am not being snarky but where alive/old enough to remember the 93 WJC? If not you should read up on it, as the crazy amout of events going on in the hockey world at the time.

It is not just about Japan. You keep throwing countries names out there like they are the same back in 93 as they are today. Today's talent from top to bottom is far superior today. Also the 93 WJC may have had some of the lowest overall talent. Compare today, Japan maybe worst team ever, far worse then Latvia today. Germany 93 would be crushed by Germany of today. The USA back then isn't close to the teams today. USA didn't win a silver till like 98, had 2 bronze in like 30 years prior to that. USA really didn't become a power team until the NHL started dumping money into the USDP in the 2000s. Throw in that this was the first year of Russia. The USSR completely done at this point, and was in a bit of Flux to say the least. Czechoslovakia literally split as a country in the tournament, although the team stayed together, again massive turmoil.

Another big kicker to lower talent in 93, the NHL expansion. More then usual top kids that were 18/19 year olds were signed to NHL contracts.

Forsberg at the time was also considered the best prospect outside the NHL. If it wasn't for the Olympics he never would have played.

No matter what way you slice it 31 points in 7 games is unreal. But it was a perfect storm of events that also helped out a ton.

 

[Janvonpobben]

I am not being snarky but where alive/old enough to remember the 93 WJC? If not you should read up on it, as the crazy amout of events going on in the hockey world at the time.

It is not just about Japan. You keep throwing countries names out there like they are the same back in 93 as they are today. Today's talent from top to bottom is far superior today. Also the 93 WJC may have had some of the lowest overall talent. Compare today, Japan maybe worst team ever, far worse then Latvia today. Germany 93 would be crushed by Germany of today. The USA back then isn't close to the teams today. USA didn't win a silver till like 98, had 2 bronze in like 30 years prior to that. USA really didn't become a power team until the NHL started dumping money into the USDP in the 2000s. Throw in that this was the first year of Russia. The USSR completely done at this point, and was in a bit of Flux to say the least. Czechoslovakia literally split as a country in the tournament, although the team stayed together, again massive turmoil.

Another big kicker to lower talent in 93, the NHL expansion. More then usual top kids that were 18/19 year olds were signed to NHL contracts.

Forsberg at the time was also considered the best prospect outside the NHL. If it wasn't for the Olympics he never would have played.

No matter what way you slice it 31 points in 7 games is unreal. But it was a perfect storm of events that also helped out a ton.

Dude i live in Gavle, the town Forsberg played wjc in. I am 45.

 

[Happyhary9]

This is correct, except that Russia was always a powerhouse. They've NEVER been a weak team.

I would say that the two tournaments have a very similar level of competition. One big difference, however, is that Bedard still has two very hard teams to play, whereas Sweden was playing teams that were already out of it towards the end of the tourney.

Actually it may have been one of Russia's weakest teams ever. The USSR had just fallen. In 92 playing under The Common Wealth of Independent States, they were able to keep their talent still and even kids not from Russia. By 93 the mass exodus of hockey players leaving Russia was in full effect even younger players.

Dude i live in Gavle, the town Forsberg played wjc in. I am 45.

Okay. Then I would kindly ask for you to explain why you think the talent level of the 93 WJC that Sweden face is better then the WJC teams today?

 

[ponder]

Exactly. Assuming Canada play 7 games, I’d say anything in the 10+ point range would be a good performance, and if he could tie Tavares’ 15 points that’d outstanding. 31 is insane, of course he’s not getting anywhere remotely close to that.

Whelp, I certainly underestimated him. He’s quite unlikely to hit 31, but 21 points in 5 games so far is insane, and it’s looking like he’ll come decently close to 31. He’s likely to put up the 2nd most points in a WJC ever (2nd is currently 24 points, a tie between Naslund and some Finn), which is absolutely wild for a draft eligible player.

 

[Akrapovince]

imagine Bedard at 19 playing in this tourney what Connor is doing at 17 is more impressing imo Forsberg didnt even make Team Sweden at 17

If we are using projections, he will be challenging for Art Ross’s at 19, let alone Foppa’s record.

 

[Deleted member 339941]

 

[Three On Zero]

No before I looked up the record, HELL NO after I looked it up.

I’ll eat crow and ignorance. I thought it was over a single tournament year

 

[SwedishFire]

I am not being snarky but where alive/old enough to remember the 93 WJC? If not you should read up on it, as the crazy amout of events going on in the hockey world at the time.

It is not just about Japan. You keep throwing countries names out there like they are the same back in 93 as they are today. Today's talent from top to bottom is far superior today. Also the 93 WJC may have had some of the lowest overall talent. Compare today, Japan maybe worst team ever, far worse then Latvia today. Germany 93 would be crushed by Germany of today. The USA back then isn't close to the teams today. USA didn't win a silver till like 98, had 2 bronze in like 30 years prior to that. USA really didn't become a power team until the NHL started dumping money into the USDP in the 2000s. Throw in that this was the first year of Russia. The USSR completely done at this point, and was in a bit of Flux to say the least. Czechoslovakia literally split as a country in the tournament, although the team stayed together, again massive turmoil.

Another big kicker to lower talent in 93, the NHL expansion. More then usual top kids that were 18/19 year olds were signed to NHL contracts.

Forsberg at the time was also considered the best prospect outside the NHL. If it wasn't for the Olympics he never would have played.

No matter what way you slice it 31 points in 7 games is unreal. But it was a perfect storm of events that also helped out a ton.

You really, really downplay jwc 93.
Then it was a series, where you met all tesms, and germany was an ok team, played 2-4 to forsbergs sweden.

Forsberg was all about winning, noyöt scoring points, so was dexebsivly resposible was scoring all those points, azd to that was physichal.
Russia was a good team, why downplay that?? Finland was not the greatest team that year, but still was ok opposition. Czech was absolultly a great team, slovakia and cezh playing together as one team, to beat Canada. Their star at the time wss Vyborby- he was great at that tourney.

Foesbergs line was Sundström Forsberg Näslund, and aöl considered to have a great future. Näslund got a ton of set ups, it was mostly Forsberg.
Forsberg was 2nd in scoring in his year prior (-92). I dont rrmember thou if that was his draftyear.

 

[Happyhary9]

You really, really downplay jwc 93.
Then it was a series, where you met all tesms, and germany was an ok team, played 2-4 to forsbergs sweden.

Forsberg was all about winning, noyöt scoring points, so was dexebsivly resposible was scoring all those points, azd to that was physichal.
Russia was a good team, why downplay that?? Finland was not the greatest team that year, but still was ok opposition. Czech was absolultly a great team, slovakia and cezh playing together as one team, to beat Canada. Their star at the time wss Vyborby- he was great at that tourney.

Foesbergs line was Sundström Forsberg Näslund, and aöl considered to have a great future. Näslund got a ton of set ups, it was mostly Forsberg.
Forsberg was 2nd in scoring in his year prior (-92). I dont rrmember thou if that was his draftyear.

Look I am not trying to downplay Forsberg, guy was a beast. But the point is another guy kept saying that Bedard didn't come close to playing the talent that Forsberg did. The talent in today's WJC far exceeds that of the 93 WJC.

As you point out, the fact that that German team was able to play close to a lot of teams showed just how low it was. Germany didn't have one kid that sniffed the NHL on that team. And yes the Russian team in 93 was very poor compared to the old Soviet teams. It's like top 5 scores never played in the NHL, their headline player Yashin got hurt and only scored 1 goal in 3 games. Heck even Canada sent one of it's least experienced teams ever, as they only had 3 players with previous WJC (U20) experience. And as You even said it was a down year for Finland. Also USA wasn't close back then to the teams they send nowadays.

The 93 WJC has been talked about for years because of what Forsberg did. And most experts believe that the record is almost unbreakable because it was just a perfect storm really. 1. Forsberg was an elite level talent and it is extremely rare for a player of that level to play at WJC at 19. He wanted to play in the Olympics. 2. The fall of the USSR. 93 was the first ever Russian team and wasn't close to the talent level as the USSR teams. 3. NHL expansion, lead to teams needing to sign more young kids then before.

Heck I am not even Canadian, so I am not trying to pump up Bedard. But to claim that the overall talent level in the 93 WJC was greater then today is ridiculous. Just the development of youth hockey players around the world today is much greater then it was 30 years ago. 30 years ago the only teams that were close to the depth of the top teams today was Canada and Soviet Union. Leading up to the 93 WJC there had been 16 WJC and those two teams won 14 of them. As said earlier 93 was the first Russian team and they were not close to the Soviet Union teams, it would take a couple years for Russia to rebuild their teams. Hence Canada goes on a gold medal streak of 5 years in a row.

 

[Toby91ca]

You really, really downplay jwc 93.
Then it was a series, where you met all tesms, and germany was an ok team, played 2-4 to forsbergs sweden.

Forsberg was all about winning, noyöt scoring points, so was dexebsivly resposible was scoring all those points, azd to that was physichal.
Russia was a good team, why downplay that?? Finland was not the greatest team that year, but still was ok opposition. Czech was absolultly a great team, slovakia and cezh playing together as one team, to beat Canada. Their star at the time wss Vyborby- he was great at that tourney.

Foesbergs line was Sundström Forsberg Näslund, and aöl considered to have a great future. Näslund got a ton of set ups, it was mostly Forsberg.
Forsberg was 2nd in scoring in his year prior (-92). I dont rrmember thou if that was his draftyear.

I think the point was that not all teams were the great teams you think of when you hear US or Russia, etc. Even Sweden wasn’t the powerhouse they have been during the 2000’s. Russia was ok, but not at all as good as they’ve historically been. Finland was just ok. Germany was not good though….they may have kept it close in some games, but they weren’t great. Their only win came against Japan, they lost 11-0 to Finland.

Czech and Slovakia weren’t playing together as one team to beat Canada….they started the tournament as Czechoslovakia because it was a single country at that time, they split in the middle of the tournament….so that’s why they show up in standings by the end of the tournament as Czech and Slovakia.

For Forsberg, the year prior he had already been drafted as well…again, very rare when you talk about the best of the best. Many say that this is truly a 19 year old’s tournament, but the best of the best almost never play in past the age of 17. Lindros played in it at 18 after being drafted, but special circumstances there due to his hold out. Ovechkin played in at 18 as well, again, special circumstance because of lockout. Malkin is another example…due to IIHF and NHL transfer dispute. Perhaps I’m wrong and there are far more examples…..I know there are many, many more 19 year olds that play in the tournament than 17 year olds…my point is that normally, the truly elite players will be drafted at 18 and make the NHL right away and not have a chance to play in this tournament at the age of 18 or 19.

 

[SwedishFire]

THIS

Well, Forsberg was a small and lean stature at 17, he really grown first at 18. But then he really grewn big..
He said in an interview as a junior played against russians, he just fall when he bump into them. Then he understand that he has to put a lot of muscles on.

A little side story.
Anyways - the jump Forsberg took between 17 -19 was something special, very few takes such big leaps in developement.

 

[Unspecified]

I'm not following this tourney so i figured i would ask, is Michkov playing well. He was better than Bedard at the IIHF a couple years back. Dude looked like a sure fire STUD.

 

[MeHateHe]

I'm not following this tourney so i figured i would ask, is Michkov playing well. He was better than Bedard at the IIHF a couple years back. Dude looked like a sure fire STUD.

Really?

 

[Unspecified]

Really?

Oooops...i forgot...lol sorry. Smoking for breakfast got me crazy.

 

[canadianmagpie]

I'm not following this tourney so i figured i would ask, is Michkov playing well. He was better than Bedard at the IIHF a couple years back. Dude looked like a sure fire STUD.

He's been a complete no-show. Hasn't done anything.

Probably because Russia isn't playing in the tournament.

 

[Toby91ca]

Well, Forsberg was a small and lean stature at 17, he really grown first at 18. But then he really grewn big..
He said in an interview as a junior played against russians, he just fall when he bump into them. Then he understand that he has to put a lot of muscles on.

A little side story.
Anyways - the jump Forsberg took between 17 -19 was something special, very few takes such big leaps in developement.

I'm sorry, but what are you talking about? Almost every player in the history of the game has taken huge leaps between the age of 17 and 19....those that don't, simply don't make it. Perhaps I'm overplaying it, but it would be the opposite of what you are suggesting in that very few take such leaps.

Speaking specifically of junior hockey players in Canada, I often ignore huge numbers if they are in their 3rd year of junior......but that time, the best of the best have moved on, so it's somewhat hard to see the leap because you'd be looking at a guy at 17 and 18 years old playing junior and then at 19 they are in the NHL. However, a lot of the top scorers in junior tend to be the old players (19 year olds in their 3rd or 4th years in junior)....the phenoms like Crosby would be the exception and dominate junior at 16 and 17 (McDavid didn't even do that).

I didn't try to find great examples, just simply went to current OHL scoring leaders (could probably do the same at any point in time, any year)......Ty Voit....at 17 scored 28pts in 49 games.....at 19 he has 56pts in 34 games.....Logan Morrison....at 17 scored 45pts in 59 games.....at 19...he scored 100pts in 60 games. These are simply guys currently at the top of the scoring list.....these guys are likely going nowhere with a professional hockey career either. The others are more difficult to show because you are comparing junior to NHL....but that should be enough to tell you.

If you compare Forsberg's development from 17-19, looks pretty typical of most other players.

 

[SwedishFire]

He's been a complete no-show. Hasn't done anything.

Probably because Russia isn't playing in the tournament.

To bad he got injured, he has great instincts and tools.

Btw, does Bedards points in the cancelled jwc counts? He did pretty darn well a year ago.

 

[kevsh]

All this talk about japan when bedard statspadded a useless germany and austria

Russia beat Japan 16-0. Russia then went on to get beat 9-1 by Canada.
Japan was worse than Germany and Austria combined. They were historically bad.

But I think you've stated your position pretty clear on who you think had the greatest tournament, and so have the rest of us. Let's see how the next 1 or 2 games for Canada play out and where Bedard's performance stands compared to Forsberg's when it's over?