Can Bedard challenge for Peter Forsbergs record?

[Janvonpobben]

Whatever you want pal. I don't really care. Enjoy that 4th place.

As long as bedard didnt break the record i am happy

 

[SwedishFire]

You are not any better. I saw your meltdown about bedard in this thread and about 10 canadians jumped on you.

Peter the great reigns supreme! Bedard scoreless in the final

Yeah. Its very hard by me to demand this, B U T - if you should be seen as the next superstar prospect, it sure had looked better if he contributed somehow on the scoresheet in the game that matter the most. If he and the coaches knew he would be hard marked by the Czech, good on him if he contributed by a though bodychecking and defensive game. OfC the Czech tried to take him away. But if you are that generational prospect, he would had find a way to get through that.

 

[SwedishFire]

Maybe but playing on a line with first round pick (and at 19 years old) Markus Naslund and first round pick Niklas Sundstrom is really good and hard to beat.

Sundströms plan was to stand in front of goal, and sweep your stick as quick you understand a pass is incoming. Forsberg and Näslund used him as a brandpost, banking in pucks on him. More or less. Hardly a superstar that many thought he would end up to be.

Forsberg was many times toying with the opposition. He made Pronger look really stupid in the Can game.

 

[Peiskos]

Forsberg was a couple years older than Bedard when he set his record, big point to note.

I'm content with him breaking the Canadian scoring record that's all that matters to me.

 

[Statsy]

Yeah. Its very hard by me to demand this, B U T - if you should be seen as the next superstar prospect, it sure had looked better if he contributed somehow on the scoresheet in the game that matter the most. If he and the coaches knew he would be hard marked by the Czech, good on him if he contributed by a though bodychecking and defensive game. OfC the Czech tried to take him away. But if you are that generational prospect, he would had find a way to get through that.

To be fair, he set up a lot of people in that game that didn't convert.

 

[Ciao]

I doubt that Forsberg's 1993 single-tournament record of 31 points will ever be broken.

There's a lot more parity of hockey talent among nations now than there was then. There not as many lopsided scores and a lot more close games.

In 1993, Japan gained entry and was relegated back down after the tournament. Japan lost to Sweden 20-1. That was unusal then and unheard of now.

The tournament format was changed in 2003 from a round-robin with no playoffs to a playoff-style format with two pools and playoff elimination games. Under the 1993 rules, every team played every other team -- including the very weak ones at least once, and that doesn't happen any more.

There are fewer non-competitive teams. Teams that were once pushovers now keep games close and sometimes win.

There are fewer games because teams get eliminated. Elimination games tend to be more even and low-scoring.

There is less incentive to run up the score because you can no longer win Gold based on goal differential. You have to win it in a gold-medal game.

Lots more reasons, too, but basically it's not the same kind of tournament now as then. Apples and oranges.

 

[Janvonpobben]

I doubt that Forsberg's 1993 single-tournament record of 31 points will ever be broken.

There's a lot more parity of hockey talent among nations now than there was then. There not as many lopsided scores and a lot more close games.

In 1993, Japan gained entry and was relegated back down after the tournament. Japan lost to Sweden 20-1. That was unusal then and unheard of now.

The tournament format was changed in 2003 from a round-robin with no playoffs to a playoff-style format with two pools and playoff elimination games. Under the 1993 rules, every team played every other team -- including the very weak ones at least once, and that doesn't happen any more.

There are fewer non-competitive teams. Teams that were once pushovers now keep games close and sometimes win.

There are fewer games because teams get eliminated. Elimination games tend to be more even and low-scoring.

There is less incentive to run up the score because you can no longer win Gold based on goal differential. You have to win it in a gold-medal game.

Lots more reasons, too, but basically it's not the same kind of tournament now as then. Apples and oranges.

Your post is false...did you just see austria play? Also russia is not in the tournament anynote which makes this wjc less competitive

 

[Ciao]

@Janvonpobben -- In 1993, Japan allowed 83 goals and had a goal differential of -74.

Sweden defeated them 20-1.

Because there were no playoffs, medals could have been decided by goal differential, so it was important to run up the score when you could because your medal might depend on it. Now that there are playoffs, that's no longer the case. You need to win a game to win a medal.

As between 1993 and the present day, I think the loss of Russia from the tournament is a real reduction in competitiveness that is probably more than offset by increased competitiveness from nations such as the United States, Finland, Germany and Switzerland.

Sweden and Czechoslovakia (which dissolved during the 1993 tournament, but still iced one combined team) have always had strong teams, but at that time it hadn't been the case that the Czechoslovak team had the #1 and #2 picks in the upcoming NHL entry draft playing on their roster -- as Slovakia did last year - or the #2 pick in the previous years' entry draft, as Slovakia did this year.

All these teams are much stronger now than they were then, to the point that there are more medal contenders, fewer blowouts, and more competitive games.

If your "gold medal" is that Peter Forsberg's record not be broken, then you needn't worry about that. It is very unlikely to ever happen.

Forsberg turned out to be a magnificent player, and one of my favourites of all time. I only wish that he hadn't suffered the injuries to his feet and ankles that helped prematurely abbreviate his career.

 

[Czechboy]

1 point in the 2 Czech games. That cost him the record IMO. If those are typical 6-0 thrashing then he may have done it.

 

[Janvonpobben]

1 point in the 2 Czech games. That cost him the record IMO. If those are typical 6-0 thrashing then he may have done it.

He wasnt as dominant vs better teams. Bedard scored 15p against germany and austria

 

[Love]

He wasnt as dominant vs better teams. Bedard scored 15p against germany and austria

I mean yeah of course he wasn’t as dominant against better teams, which is true about any player ever. Was Forsberg more dominant against team Japan or team Canada?

I think the points record thing has become silly and I’m glad Bedard is downplaying it. I also think Bedard played pretty well in the final and could’ve easily finished with a couple points. He especially had some nice setups.

It’s subjective but to me when you factor in age, Bedard has had the most impressive WJC career of all time. Not necessarily the best, but most impressive.

 

[Ciao]

He wasnt as dominant vs better teams. Bedard scored 15p against germany and austria

In 1993, Forsberg scored 10 points against Japan alone.

Bedard -17 y.o. - 2023 - 7 games - 23 points
Forsberg - 18 y.o. - 1992 - 7 games - 11 points
Forsberg - 19 y.o. - 1993 - 7 games - 31 points

Draw whatever conclusions you like.

They are different players in different tournaments at different times.

I still think Forsberg's record is safe, and you needn't worry yourself about that.

Peter Forsberg was one heck of a good hockey player -- Hall of Fame member and one of the best ever.

Conor Bedard is a 17 y.o. youth, and here I think the comparisons break down. Bedard looks like a kid because he is just a kid, but he's not been doing too badly so far.

 

[Ciao]

1 point in the 2 Czech games. That cost him the record IMO. If those are typical 6-0 thrashing then he may have done it.

Maybe, but I'm not so sure about that.

I watched a lot of Canada's games, and I thought Bedard was looking tired nearing the end of the Slovakia game. He'd been hit, cross checked and beaten on all tournament, and I was a bit surprised that he had the stamina to pull it out in overtime.

I'm doubtful that if the tournament had gone on longer he would have done much more, but I do think that if he were to come once or twice again -- a little bigger and a year or two older -- he would have more in the tank and would surpass this year's performance.

He could be back next year as an 18 y.o., but I'm pretty sure that he won't return as a 19 y.o. to give a more direct comparison with Peter Forsberg.

Bedard played twice in the WJC as a 17 y.o. Forsberg played twice: once as an 18 y.o., and once as a 19 y.o.

Forsberg didn't join the NHL until he was 20 y.o. It will be interesting to see where Conor Bedard is at that age -- and the answer is not at all clear.

 

[Janvonpobben]

I mean yeah of course he wasn’t as dominant against better teams, which is true about any player ever. Was Forsberg more dominant against team Japan or team Canada?

I think the points record thing has become silly and I’m glad Bedard is downplaying it. I also think Bedard played pretty well in the final and could’ve easily finished with a couple points. He especially had some nice setups.

It’s subjective but to me when you factor in age, Bedard has had the most impressive WJC career of all time. Not necessarily the best, but most impressive.

Forsberg scored 5 points against the best canada ever according to Bob Mackenzie

Team Canada - U20 World Championships 1993 - Player Stats

Team Canada stats, scoring leaders and demographics breakdown at U20 World Championships in 1993. Player birth country and age distributions, draft rounds of players in the 1993 tournament.

www.quanthockey.com

Holy f***ing christ. Look at that roster.

 

[Statsy]

Forsberg scored 5 points against the best canada ever according to Bob Mackenzie

Team Canada - U20 World Championships 1993 - Player Stats

Team Canada stats, scoring leaders and demographics breakdown at U20 World Championships in 1993. Player birth country and age distributions, draft rounds of players in the 1993 tournament.

www.quanthockey.com

Holy f***ing christ. Look at that roster.

For the record (no pun intended), Forsberg had 4 points in that game, not 5. It was definitely a good team, but nobody considers it the best Canadian team of all time.

This is such a weird argument we're having. I saw Forsberg in 1993 and I know how dominant he was. I also watched Bedard now and I saw how dominant he was. Why can't we just say they were both great? Why do people have to get so worked up about who was better?

 

[DaaaaB's]

Most players seem to where a symbol of his church around their necks.

That is absolutely not true and a flat out ridiculous thing to say.

 

[Janvonpobben]

For the record (no pun intended), Forsberg had 4 points in that game, not 5. It was definitely a good team, but nobody considers it the best Canadian team of all time.

This is such a weird argument we're having. I saw Forsberg in 1993 and I know how dominant he was. I also watched Bedard now and I saw how dominant he was. Why can't we just say they were both great? Why do people have to get so worked up about who was better?

Bobby mac called it the best canada he had seen a few years ago. It was a segment on tsn

 

[Statsy]

Bobby mac called it the best canada he had seen a few years ago. It was a segment on tsn

Out of curiosity, where do you rank that team for Sweden among all the teams they've sent to the tournament?

 

[Coaches Coroner]

That is absolutely not true and a flat out ridiculous thing to say.

A surprising amount of players half a gold cross around their necks, even when they play which always seemed weird. Are you saying they don't? I suppose you are correct in that it was misleading for me to suggest cross = Catholic Pope worship specifically.

 

[Czechboy]

He wasnt as dominant vs better teams. Bedard scored 15p against germany and austria

He did. I mean he was the best forward without a doubt on my mind. Crushed Slovakia in OT too for a 'signature moment'. Not sure how he did against Sweden and us points wise but my guess is 7 pts?

 

[Czechboy]

Maybe, but I'm not so sure about that.

I watched a lot of Canada's games, and I thought Bedard was looking tired nearing the end of the Slovakia game. He'd been hit, cross checked and beaten on all tournament, and I was a bit surprised that he had the stamina to pull it out in overtime.

I'm doubtful that if the tournament had gone on longer he would have done much more, but I do think that if he were to come once or twice again -- a little bigger and a year or two older -- he would have more in the tank and would surpass this year's performance.

He could be back next year as an 18 y.o., but I'm pretty sure that he won't return as a 19 y.o. to give a more direct comparison with Peter Forsberg.

Bedard played twice in the WJC as a 17 y.o. Forsberg played twice: once as an 18 y.o., and once as a 19 y.o.

Forsberg didn't join the NHL until he was 20 y.o. It will be interesting to see where Conor Bedard is at that age -- and the answer is not at all clear.

My guess is 50 points in NHL next year and he never sees the jrs again. He is amazing to watch but not many 18 year olds show up and dominate. Especially not in the last decade. Better goalies, bigger d and bigger forwards. He can definitely adjust and do it but it's a hell of a transition.

 

[Janvonpobben]

Out of curiosity, where do you rank that team for Sweden among all the teams they've sent to the tournament?

It was a two player team. Forsberg + naslund. The other lines hardly produced.

 

[DaaaaB's]

A surprising amount of players half a gold cross around their necks, even when they play which always seemed weird. Are you saying they don't? I suppose you are correct in that it was misleading for me to suggest cross = Catholic Pope worship specifically.

I would say a very small percentage of players in this tournament are Roman Catholic. As for gold crosses in general, I have no idea but I doubt it. Hockey players rarely where jewelry while playing.

It was a two player team. Forsberg + naslund. The other lines hardly produced.

Yeah, yeah keep comparing apples to oranges. Everyone that's not biased knows what Bedard did this year was more impressive than what Forsberg did as a 19 year old.

 

[FerrisRox]

I doubt that Forsberg's 1993 single-tournament record of 31 points will ever be broken.

I agree it won't be broken, but it's also frankly bizarre to see anybody thumping their chest and bragging about this ridiculously dubious record.

Three things happened in 1993 that are extremely unlikely to ever happen again.

1) Peter Forsberg scored 31 points.
2) A player the calibre of Peter Forsberg played in the World Junior Championship at age 19. (He also had a high end linemate that was also 19.)
3) A team as abysmal as Japan were allowed in the tournament and served as absolute canon-fodder.

I don't think any of those three things will ever happen again.

The top three single tournament point totals all came from 19 year olds. This is neither a surprise nor is it a coincidence.

Not that matters, but it's worth pointing out that Peter Forsberg is one of my all time favourite players, but this record, to me, is not something to be taken very seriously.

 

[Statsy]

It was a two player team. Forsberg + naslund. The other lines hardly produced.

So... kind of like Canada this year.