Can Bedard challenge for Peter Forsbergs record?

[FerrisRox]

It was a two player team. Forsberg + naslund. The other lines hardly produced.

This is a ridiculous claim considering Niklas Sundstrom's 10-goals in that tournament remains one of the ten best goal scoring tournaments ever.

The reality is the statistics of Sweden's first line in that tournament were hugely inflated by having two high-end 19-year olds complimented by a 1st round draft pick on the other wing and the team facing a ridiculously over-matched Japanese squad.

The fact that you are bragging about this is kind of sad. Sweden is an outstanding hockey nation with a very rich history and all kinds of actual accomplishments and triumphs. This isn't one of them.

 

[FerrisRox]

Yeah, yeah keep comparing apples to oranges. Everyone that's not biased knows what Bedard did this year was more impressive than what Forsberg did as a 19 year old.

I have no idea if Connor Bedard will have the kind of NHL career that Peter Forsberg had, but I agree with you that a 17-year old kid posting 23-points in the tournament facing quality competition is significantly more impressive than a 19-year old posting 31 points while feasting on Team Japan. Japan, for the record, gave up 83 goals in just 7-games. They gave up, on average, almost 12-goals a game.

 

[Ciao]

In the words of the great Lloyd Christmas "Man you are one pathetic loser".

Yeah, I get the feeling that I'm a grown man debating a meaningless point with a 15-25 y.o. in his parents' basement -- which is very humbling.

I mean, when I was 17, I was envious of Wayne Gretzky too, but we're about the same age and I very quickly grew out of that.

Is it possible that there's one or more persons on here who can't accept someone else in their own age group challenging the greatness of their childhood heros?

Maybe -- to make sense of this -- we need a psychologist more than a hockey historian?

The whole debate -- including my own contributions -- is completely absurd.

 

[Ciao]

This is a ridiculous claim considering Niklas Sundstrom's 10-goals in that tournament remains one of the ten best goal scoring tournaments ever.

The reality is the statistics of Sweden's first line in that tournament were hugely inflated by having two high-end 19-year olds complimented by a 1st round draft pick on the other wing and the team facing a ridiculously over-matched Japanese squad.

The fact that you are bragging about this is kind of sad. Sweden is an outstanding hockey nation with a very rich history and all kinds of actual accomplishments and triumphs. This isn't one of them.

I don't know. I think Forsberg had a great tournament in 1993. That's significant, but not anything near what this fellow would make it out to be.

Forsberg did Sweden proud, and it's a rightfully proud hockey nation.

 

[OskarOskarius]

Sadly for Bedard he didn’t even beat Marcus Näslund’s 23 points from 1991, and wasn’t even close beating Forsberg.

 

[Statsy]

I have no idea if Connor Bedard will have the kind of NHL career that Peter Forsberg had, but I agree with you that a 17-year old kid posting 23-points in the tournament facing quality competition is significantly more impressive than a 19-year old posting 31 points while feasting on Team Japan. Japan, for the record, gave up 83 goals in just 7-games. They gave up, on average, almost 12-goals a game.

I've mostly been defending Bedard in this convo, but it definitely seems like you are under playing what Forsberg actually did. People keep bringing up the ten points against Japan, so let's take that out of the equation. In fact, I had this very conversation with a buddy of mine after drop-in on Wednesday. Here's how it went;

Me: Forsberg had 31 points in 1993.
Friend: But didn't he have like 10 against Japan?
Me: Leaving him with 21 points in the other 6 games.
Friend: *Does some quick calculating *
Friend: Yeah, that's still pretty good.

Sadly for Bedard he didn’t even beat Marcus Näslund’s 23 points from 1991, and wasn’t even close beating Forsberg.

He wasn't trying to. Bedard was trying to win a Gold. (Naslund had 24, by the way)

 

[SwedishFire]

@Janvonpobben -- In 1993, Japan allowed 83 goals and had a goal differential of -74.

Sweden defeated them 20-1.

Because there were no playoffs, medals could have been decided by goal differential, so it was important to run up the score when you could because your medal might depend on it. Now that there are playoffs, that's no longer the case. You need to win a game to win a medal.

As between 1993 and the present day, I think the loss of Russia from the tournament is a real reduction in competitiveness that is probably more than offset by increased competitiveness from nations such as the United States, Finland, Germany and Switzerland.

Sweden and Czechoslovakia (which dissolved during the 1993 tournament, but still iced one combined team) have always had strong teams, but at that time it hadn't been the case that the Czechoslovak team had the #1 and #2 picks in the upcoming NHL entry draft playing on their roster -- as Slovakia did last year - or the #2 pick in the previous years' entry draft, as Slovakia did this year.

All these teams are much stronger now than they were then, to the point that there are more medal contenders, fewer blowouts, and more competitive games.

If your "gold medal" is that Peter Forsberg's record not be broken, then you needn't worry about that. It is very unlikely to ever happen.

Forsberg turned out to be a magnificent player, and one of my favourites of all time. I only wish that he hadn't suffered the injuries to his feet and ankles that helped prematurely abbreviate his career.

In -93 it wasnt goal doffrential, the tiebreaker was the game between the two on a tie, and Canada won vs sweden with 5-4, but sweden had a way better goal diffrential, and gaolscoring. In todays format you got extra OT time, wich wasnt back in-93, so players today have a small advantage. And im not buying that teams where worse. Actually with 10 teams, teams are way better of now, facing more weaker hockeynations.

Iand its still 7 games if you win tje quaryerfinals.

I've mostly been defending Bedard in this convo, but it definitely seems like you are under playing what Forsberg actually did. People keep bringing up the ten points against Japan, so let's take that out of the equation. In fact, I had this very conversation with a buddy of mine after drop-in on Wednesday. Here's how it went;

Me: Forsberg had 31 points in 1993.
Friend: But didn't he have like 10 against Japan?
Me: Leaving him with 21 points in the other 6 games.
Friend: *Does some quick calculating *
Friend: Yeah, that's still pretty good.




He wasn't trying to. Bedard was trying to win a Gold. (Naslund had 24, by the way)

Take out the highscoring games
Japan and Austria.

Forsberg 21 points, Bedard 16p

 

[Ciao]

In -93 it wasnt goal doffrential, the tiebreaker was the game between the two on a tie, and Canada won vs sweden with 5-4, but sweden had a way better goal diffrential, and gaolscoring. In todays format you got extra OT time, wich wasnt back in-93, so players today have a small advantage. And im not buying that teams where worse. Actually with 10 teams, teams are way better of now, facing more weaker hockeynations.

Iand its still 7 games if you win tje quaryerfinals.


Take out the highscoring games
Japan and Austria.

Forsberg 21 points, Bedard 16p

In 1993, there was no overtime and no playoffs.

If the top two teams in the round-robin played to a tie – as sometimes happened – then the gold medal would be decided by goal differential.

As a result, it was always important to run up the score in early games against weaker teams if were possible to do so, not knowing in advance the outcome of the rest of the schedule.

Goal differential is still a tiebreaker for seeding placement, but not for awarding medals. So, it's still important, but not quite as much so.


You did capture the age difference between the players? In 1992, Forsberg was 18 years old and had 11 points. In 1993, Forsberg was 19 years old and had 31 points. In 2023, Bedard was 17 years old and had 23 points.

Forsberg's record was well-deserved and stands, but I don't know how you compare the performance of a 19-year-old Forsberg with a 17-year-old Bedard.

Would you then compare the 18-year-old Forsberg with the 17-year-old Bedard?

I really don't think you can draw those comparisons with any meaning.

 

[FerrisRox]

Me: Forsberg had 31 points in 1993.
Friend: But didn't he have like 10 against Japan?
Me: Leaving him with 21 points in the other 6 games.
Friend: *Does some quick calculating *
Friend: Yeah, that's still pretty good.

Yes. Nobody is suggesting that Forsberg didn't have an outstanding tournament. That's pretty clear.

What also is clear is that he did this as one of the best players not in the NHL at age 19 with a very high end 19-year old winger.

How do you think it would play out if Connor Bedard suited up at the World Juniors two years from now and Team Canada played one game against Team Jamaica?

 

[SwedishFire]

Yes. Nobody is suggesting that Forsberg didn't have an outstanding tournament. That's pretty clear.

What also is clear is that he did this as one of the best players not in the NHL at age 19 with a very high end 19-year old winger.

How do you think it would play out if Connor Bedard suited up at the World Juniors two years from now and Team Canada played one game against Team Jamaica?

I think 30p still would be hard, you cant force goals. You just cant, you need a perdect rush, a perfect run.

 

[Janvonpobben]

This is a ridiculous claim considering Niklas Sundstrom's 10-goals in that tournament remains one of the ten best goal scoring tournaments ever.

The reality is the statistics of Sweden's first line in that tournament were hugely inflated by having two high-end 19-year olds complimented by a 1st round draft pick on the other wing and the team facing a ridiculously over-matched Japanese squad.

The fact that you are bragging about this is kind of sad. Sweden is an outstanding hockey nation with a very rich history and all kinds of actual accomplishments and triumphs. This isn't one of them.

Forsberg >>> Overrated Bedard

Yes. Nobody is suggesting that Forsberg didn't have an outstanding tournament. That's pretty clear.

What also is clear is that he did this as one of the best players not in the NHL at age 19 with a very high end 19-year old winger.

How do you think it would play out if Connor Bedard suited up at the World Juniors two years from now and Team Canada played one game against Team Jamaica?

Austria + German was just as bad as japan togheter

Bedard is nothing special imo. He will be another lefranienre. High bust potential imo.

In 1993, there was no overtime and no playoffs.

If the top two teams in the round-robin played to a tie – as sometimes happened – then the gold medal would be decided by goal differential.

As a result, it was always important to run up the score in early games against weaker teams if were possible to do so, not knowing in advance the outcome of the rest of the schedule.

Goal differential is still a tiebreaker for seeding placement, but not for awarding medals. So, it's still important, but not quite as much so.


You did capture the age difference between the players? In 1992, Forsberg was 18 years old and had 11 points. In 1993, Forsberg was 19 years old and had 31 points. In 2023, Bedard was 17 years old and had 23 points.

Forsberg's record was well-deserved and stands, but I don't know how you compare the performance of a 19-year-old Forsberg with a 17-year-old Bedard.

Would you then compare the 18-year-old Forsberg with the 17-year-old Bedard?

I really don't think you can draw those comparisons with any meaning.

Forsberg has the official u20 wjc record and bedard hasnt. Can you canadians stop crying about it now

 

[Statsy]

Forsberg 21 points, Bedard 16p

Again, I'm not the one that needs to compare and contrast these two. Both are amazing performances. Agreed?

 

[Statsy]

Bedard is nothing special imo. He will be another lefranienre. High bust potential imo.

What do you get out of trollish posts like this? It's pretty clear that you either don't know anything about hockey, or you are getting some perverse pleasure of of just being a jerk. Which is it?

 

[DaaaaB's]

Forsberg >>> Overrated Bedard


Austria + German was just as bad as japan togheter

Bedard is nothing special imo. He will be another lefranienre. High bust potential imo.


Forsberg has the official u20 wjc record and bedard hasnt. Can you canadians stop crying about it now

No one's crying about it. Simply pointing out that Bedard is 17 and Forsberg was 19. If you can't understand what a huge difference that is then you're either purposely being ignorant or just don't understand Hockey.

 

[Janvonpobben]

What do you get out of trollish posts like this? It's pretty clear that you either don't know anything about hockey, or you are getting some perverse pleasure of of just being a jerk. Which is it?

Thats for people trying to troll forsberg japan blah blah blah austria + germany was just as bad.

 

[Janvonpobben]

No one's crying about it. Simply pointing out that Bedard is 17 and Forsberg was 19. If you can't understand what a huge difference that is then you're either purposely being ignorant or just don't understand Hockey.

It might not matter at all. Brad lambert had more points as 16 in this tournament than he was 19.

 

[Peiskos]

Forsberg >>> Overrated Bedard


Austria + German was just as bad as japan togheter

Bedard is nothing special imo. He will be another lefranienre. High bust potential imo.


Forsberg has the official u20 wjc record and bedard hasnt. Can you canadians stop crying about it now

Ya but...

Bedard : 2 World Junior Gold

Forsberg : 0 World Junior Golds

Bedard has the official u20 record of having gold, Forsberg hasn't. Can you Swedes stop crying about it now

 

[Ciao]

It might not matter at all. Brad lambert had more points as 16 in this tournament than he was 19.

Yeah, there's a comparison to remember: Brad Lambert and Conor Bedard!

What planet are you on?

Lambert scored four points as a 17 y.o., one as an 18 y.o., and one as a 19 y.o.!

There's precursor for Conor Bedard of ever there was one! I don't know how we missed that?

Any other wonderful arguments in store?

 

[DaaaaB's]

It might not matter at all. Brad lambert had more points as 16 in this tournament than he was 19.

Brad Lambert didn't even play in this tournament as a 16 year old lol. He had 4 points as 17 year old. What a silly comparison.

 

[Ciao]

Ya but...

Bedard : 1 World Junior Gold

Forsberg : 0 World Junior Golds

Bedard has the official u20 record of having gold, Forsberg hasn't. Can you Swedes stop crying about it now

No need to go there.

Forsberg is pure class.

 

[Peiskos]

No need to go there.

Forsberg is pure class.

I was just copying word for word what he said but in reverse to point out the idiocy.

 

[Statsy]

Thats for people trying to troll forsberg japan blah blah blah austria + germany was just as bad.

And the simple answer to that is 21 points in his other 6 games. Simple as that. It's on all of us to prevent the discourse in this forum from going into the toilet. That includes my Canadian compatriots, too.

 

[FissionFire]

Forsberg has the best performance in a WJC ever.
Bedard has the best performance in a WJC for a 17yr old ever.

Can’t we just leave it at that? Both are the best.

 

[FerrisRox]

What do you get out of trollish posts like this? It's pretty clear that you either don't know anything about hockey, or you are getting some perverse pleasure of of just being a jerk. Which is it?

He's obviously trolling. I was 90 percent sure he was in the first place, but actually trying to suggest that Austria and Germany are anywhere close to as bad as Japan makes it pretty obvious what he's doing. It's just silly, I'm done with it.

 

[Hansen]

Unfortunately Bedard probably won't compete in a WJC at 18 never mind 19, so he won't have a shot to trump Fappa's record