Bruins Off Season III

[GloryDaze4877]

The 'mistake' has already been alluded to and partially conceded by non other than Don Sweeney himself.

This 'mistake' is showing itself in spades as we speak, with a deep hole in the Bruins blueline, and another playoff miss which was endemic to poor transitional play and older, slower skaters.

This was Elliotte Friedman's take;



When I refer to the Bruins as a Top Flight team, I am referring to an original 6 franchise that builds to the cap, doesn't rebuild, only re-tools. We are not in Columbus or Arizona Dorothy.

Friedman is welcome to his "take", I don't share it. And to compare the Hamilton trade to the Thornton deal is irresponsible at best. Two different situations with two different returns.

I haven't heard Sweeney concede that dealing Hamilton was a mistake. Maybe you can share that with me? Has anyone considered that Sweeney knew that there might be a "hole" in the short term? The guy did go to Harvard after all. He probably hoped that Chiller and Morrow would advance further last season then they did and that Sides had more in the tank, but what's going on can't have been completely unforeseen.

I'm pretty sure drafting Zboril, Carlo, Lauzon, McAvoy and Lindgren was Sweeney's response to poor transitional play and older, slower skaters?

 

[tburns21]

Can the Bruins swing a deal for Fowler. Sure seems like he is the most-likely option at this point. I'm not convinced Shattenkirk is getting moved just yet.

The fact that Fowler also has two years left at a nice number (4.0) makes him even more appealing. His extension if given would coincide with Chara's deal ending and Seidenberg's buy-out hit going back to the 1 million range.

The Ducks need to move out some money to get Rakell and especially Lindholm re-signed. They are budget team and up against already it if you believe the reports.

They are also pretty shallow in left-handed forwards. You could argue their Top 5 F (Getzlaf, Perry, Kesler, Silvferberg, Rakell) are right-shooting players.

Cogliano
Ritchie
Vermette
Thompson
Raymond
Boll

Kinda gross.

Most are convinced to get a D-man this year Spooner is the odd-man out. Seriously how many teams have a 50-pt left-shot young forward to trade still on a cheap deal like Spooner?

Spooner +, the + being the big question.

I don't know if either of Krug or Fowler can play the right side, but for arguments sake.

Chara - Fowler/Krug
Fowler/Krug - K.Miller

That's a reasonably decent Top 4. As good as Boston can hope for at this stage anyways.

I would certainly entertain a deal around fowler for spooner, the plus at that point would probably be smaller... a depth LW wing maybe. we'd also have to look at the possibility of moving some D men out like mcquaid or liles and morrow.

 

[Roll 4 Lines]

I actually do question their "aggressiveness" in their pursuit of a solid dman. I think passing on having to eat a contract in the Shattenkirk deal, given how otherwise favorable it looked, shows they may overrate their current cast (hence their questionable contract extensions). I wonder if Sweeney isn't instead just trying to bide time until the kids come up, hoping to squeak into the playoffs. Appease the owner and wait for a few years down the road. Not saying it's the worst strategy, but I don't care for it myself.

That may indicate lack of aggressiveness to you, but may show wisdom to someone else.

Without knowing who that contract was for and how big/how long, it's difficult to say for sure.

Well, aside from the fact that, in hindsight, Loui for a pod of edamame would have been a better investment than what they got.

 

[BruinDust]

I would certainly entertain a deal around fowler for spooner, the plus at that point would probably be smaller... a depth LW wing maybe. we'd also have to look at the possibility of moving some D men out like mcquaid or liles and morrow.

If the B's could swing a deal for Spooner + (the plus being picks/prospects, the Ducks don't want money back), I'd then move McQuaid out so there is at least one spot in the Top 6 D for a young guy like Morrow or Colin to battle for. I wouldn't expect a big return for McQuaid but he's easily movable.

 

[tburns21]

If the B's could swing a deal for Spooner + (the plus being picks/prospects, the Ducks don't want money back), I'd then move McQuaid out so there is at least one spot in the Top 6 D for a young guy like Morrow or Colin to battle for. I wouldn't expect a big return for McQuaid but he's easily movable.

i would imagine Mcquaid could fetch a 3rd. I based left handed depth i would try and recoup anything I could for morrow as well. I know the ducks don't need him but someone out there could want a young PMD for their bottom pairing. the reality is with the pipeline on the left bringing in fowler essentially rides morrow out of town.

 

[bp13]

That may indicate lack of aggressiveness to you, but may show wisdom to someone else.

Without knowing who that contract was for and how big/how long, it's difficult to say for sure.

Well, aside from the fact that, in hindsight, Loui for a pod of edamame would have been a better investment than what they got.

You're right that technically without knowing that contract it could have been a bad deal, but word is that contract was likely for a guy like Berglund, someone serviceable. Ultimately my issue there is twofold...one, I don't think this organization shares the public opinion that this defense is a trainwreck. I submit extensions for Miller and McQuaid as evidence. The other issue is that I think they're trying to thread the needle. Keeping Loui was the safer route to staying in the playoffs, despite the fact that team had no shot of competing for a Cup. It's classic Bruins MO. Business over hockey.

And I'd also add this...rumor has it Sweeney acquired picks to move up and draft a dman two years ago. He couldn't close that dman deal. Sweeney was in on Shattenkirk at the deadline and failed to close. He didn't trade for or sign a UFA this summer when the team was desperate. So I'm left to conclude that either he can't close, or we are overestimating just how "desperate" they feel. And if they don't feel desperate because the plan is for 2-3 years from now, then I still say the Backes signing showed a lack of judgment and will be his undoing.

 

[Hali33]

I wonder how many people that thought the return on Hamilton was acceptable, or hell even GOOD are going to be the same people who turn around and give Sweeney a pass if he doesn't acquire real defensive help this off season because of the outrageous price of young defensemen with potential.

As unrealistic as this place can be sometimes, I don't think anyone is entertaining the idea of a 1st and two 2nds for these types of players. I see Marchand or Pastrnak or Spooner++ being entertained as possible returns depending on the target. And yet we didn't get a single NHL ready asset back.

Glad the players we drafted are doing well. But the discrepancy between the cost for Hamilton versus the potential cost for real defensive help to come in should be a pretty clear sign that was an unacceptable return for one of, if not our best defensive asset at the time of the trade, regardless of how much you liked Hamilton or the underwhelming season he ended up having for Calgary.

 

[BruinDust]

i would imagine Mcquaid could fetch a 3rd. I based left handed depth i would try and recoup anything I could for morrow as well. I know the ducks don't need him but someone out there could want a young PMD for their bottom pairing. the reality is with the pipeline on the left bringing in fowler essentially rides morrow out of town.

Depends on how they structure the D. Does one of Krug or Fowler move to the right-side creating a legit Top 4? I would wager one of them would rather than run Chara-Krug-Fowler down the left and a gapping crater on the right side. Liles can play both sides as well.

You need NHL ready depth. I see no reason to just ship Morrow out for a minimal return at this stage. And I don't see them getting much for him either. Better to keep him in case of injuries than ship him out for peanuts. I don't see Anaheim having any interest including Morrow as part of the Spooner deal to get Fowler. They have plenty of D-men. He'd just be a wasted throw in.

 

[Duguay]

Friedman is welcome to his "take", I don't share it. And to compare the Hamilton trade to the Thornton deal is irresponsible at best. Two different situations with two different returns.

I haven't heard Sweeney concede that dealing Hamilton was a mistake. Maybe you can share that with me? Has anyone considered that Sweeney knew that there might be a "hole" in the short term? The guy did go to Harvard after all. He probably hoped that Chiller and Morrow would advance further last season then they did and that Sides had more in the tank, but what's going on can't have been completely unforeseen.

I'm pretty sure drafting Zboril, Carlo, Lauzon, McAvoy and Lindgren was Sweeney's response to poor transitional play and older, slower skaters?

The point being (as pertaining to this thread) is that mistakes/lack of foresight whatever you want to call it, bring on other problems down the road.

We missed the Playoffs last year, and concrete boots on the blueline played a large roll in that. In all the opinion polls I read, Management was blamed.
By 75% in the one I recall.

Friedman is not alone. By a long shot.

We are seeing this issue present itself again now. Hey, where are all the young, mobile, modern transitional Defenseman around for 1 first, and 2 - seconds right now?

Again it doesn't matter what you feel about that player personally, its the value that player carries which carries over to a better team.

We should have received a skater that could have helped last season, and transitioned more easily into this one, still with futures to look forward to.

 

[tburns21]

Depends on how they structure the D. Does one of Krug or Fowler move to the right-side creating a legit Top 4? I would wager one of them would rather than run Chara-Krug-Fowler down the left and a gapping crater on the right side. Liles can play both sides as well.

You need NHL ready depth. I see no reason to just ship Morrow out for a minimal return at this stage. And I don't see them getting much for him either. Better to keep him in case of injuries than ship him out for peanuts. I don't see Anaheim having any interest including Morrow as part of the Spooner deal to get Fowler. They have plenty of D-men. He'd just be a wasted throw in.

I also meant long term when the likes of Zboril, o'gara/grz and lauzon are ready to make the jump. then you have mcAvoy, carlo, c miller on the right so you won't necessarily need fowler or krug to play off hand creating

fowler
krug
zboril or other

i think there's a market for morrow where he wouldn't be useless throw in or given away for peanuts. he has the ability to become a very solid 2way #4 guy and teams could certainly look at him as that.

 

[bp13]

I wonder how many people that thought the return on Hamilton was acceptable, or hell even GOOD are going to be the same people who turn around and give Sweeney a pass if he doesn't acquire real defensive help this off season because of the outrageous price of young defensemen with potential.

As unrealistic as this place can be sometimes, I don't think anyone is entertaining the idea of a 1st and two 2nds for these types of players. I see Marchand or Pastrnak or Spooner++ being entertained as possible returns depending on the target. And yet we didn't get a single NHL ready asset back.

Glad the players we drafted are doing well. But the discrepancy between the cost for Hamilton versus the potential cost for real defensive help to come in should be a pretty clear sign that was an unacceptable return for one of, if not our best defensive asset at the time of the trade, regardless of how much you liked Hamilton or the underwhelming season he ended up having for Calgary.

I didn't like the return on Hamilton, despite the fact that I think we overrated Hamilton. Julien probably saw some weaknesses we all didn't and they showed themselves even more in Calgary last season. Despite all that, I thought he definitely should have fetched a quality young player. Hamilton's prospects the day we traded him could have been in line with Adam Larsson, a guy who fetched Taylor Hall one summer later. Sweeney got hosed in that one.

But, but, the big issue for me there is that I think he made that deal with the expectation that he'd flip that pick for Hanifin. And he didn't close that. I obviously can't know that, but IF that is what happened, that's a brutal mistake. Moreover, his urgency to make such a deal shows a desire to upgrade the blueline within a couple years, and since then he's done nothing to make up for that failing. Sure his drafts show a real bent towards D, but those D are gonna help the next GM. Who's the Dman who saves his job? Because if this is his D this season, he'll be on the hot seat by Christmas, and he should be.

 

[BruinDust]

I also meant long term when the likes of Zboril, o'gara/grz and lauzon are ready to make the jump. then you have mcAvoy, carlo, c miller on the right so you won't necessarily need fowler or krug to play off hand creating

fowler
krug
zboril or other

i think there's a market for morrow where he wouldn't be useless throw in or given away for peanuts. he has the ability to become a very solid 2way #4 guy and teams could certainly look at him as that.

Down the road I would agree Morrow would likely be pushed out by a couple of the young LD in the system considering they have about 5 guys on that side, so it's reasonable to think one or two of them will become NHL D-men.

 

[GloryDaze4877]

The point being (as pertaining to this thread) is that mistakes/lack of foresight whatever you want to call it, bring on other problems down the road.

We missed the Playoffs last year, and concrete boots on the blueline played a large roll in that. In all the opinion polls I read, Management was blamed.
By 75% in the one I recall.

Friedman is not alone. By a long shot.

We are seeing this issue present itself again now. Hey, where are all the young, mobile, modern transitional Defenseman around for 1 first, and 2 - seconds right now?

Again it doesn't matter what you feel about that player personally, its the value that player carries which carries over to a better team.

We should have received a skater that could have helped last season, and transitioned more easily into this one, still with futures to look forward to.

You are right, it doesn't matter how I felt about the player personally. It mattered what Clode and Co thought of him though. Personally, I thought he was as bad defensively as any d-man on the team his last year in Boston, and I said that a month or so into the season, not after he was dealt. Given that Sweeney supposedly tried to extend Dougie, it would seem that they were willing to work with him on the D stuff and were well aware that they would not be getting immediate help back if he was dealt.


That being said, did Hamilton help the B's make the playoffs in 2014-15?

 

[Roll 4 Lines]

You're right that technically without knowing that contract it could have been a bad deal, but word is that contract was likely for a guy like Berglund, someone serviceable. Ultimately my issue there is twofold...one, I don't think this organization shares the public opinion that this defense is a trainwreck. I submit extensions for Miller and McQuaid as evidence. The other issue is that I think they're trying to thread the needle. Keeping Loui was the safer route to staying in the playoffs, despite the fact that team had no shot of competing for a Cup. It's classic Bruins MO. Business over hockey.

And I'd also add this...rumor has it Sweeney acquired picks to move up and draft a dman two years ago. He couldn't close that dman deal. Sweeney was in on Shattenkirk at the deadline and failed to close. He didn't trade for or sign a UFA this summer when the team was desperate. So I'm left to conclude that either he can't close, or we are overestimating just how "desperate" they feel. And if they don't feel desperate because the plan is for 2-3 years from now, then I still say the Backes signing showed a lack of judgment and will be his undoing.

You make valid points, although I'm not in total agreement with you.

You'll get no argument from me on your McQ and Miller point.

I'd have been fine with unloading Loui and more at the deadline, playoffs be damned, but I accept that's just not reality when a team is in a playoff spot. Sends a bad message, similar to intentionally tanking.

I admit to being more patient than many here, and I'm not sure if "Desperate" is the way I want the GM to act in August. I have gripes with some of his moves, as I would with any GM, and I do agree that rebuilding while trying to contend is difficult to say the least.

I like the way they've stocked the cupboard and am curious to see what happens next, but again, I'm prolly more patient than others.

Not sure how much blame to assess to one GM for not closing a deal, when it takes 2 to tango.

Also, I don't see the Backes signing as being his undoing. I think we're going to like him at least for the first 3 or 4 years, but you could be right. I suppose as he ages we could look back fondly on the Chris Kelly contract! DOH!

 

[Roll 4 Lines]

I wonder how many people that thought the return on Hamilton was acceptable, or hell even GOOD are going to be the same people who turn around and give Sweeney a pass if he doesn't acquire real defensive help this off season because of the outrageous price of young defensemen with potential.

As unrealistic as this place can be sometimes, I don't think anyone is entertaining the idea of a 1st and two 2nds for these types of players. I see Marchand or Pastrnak or Spooner++ being entertained as possible returns depending on the target. And yet we didn't get a single NHL ready asset back.

Glad the players we drafted are doing well. But the discrepancy between the cost for Hamilton versus the potential cost for real defensive help to come in should be a pretty clear sign that was an unacceptable return for one of, if not our best defensive asset at the time of the trade, regardless of how much you liked Hamilton or the underwhelming season he ended up having for Calgary.

I supported Dougie as much as anybody, but I don't think you can disregard those 2 things. If he ceases to progress, than Calgary paid too much for him.

If he reaches his potential, you will be proven correct, IMO.

 

[bp13]

You make valid points, although I'm not in total agreement with you.

You'll get no argument from me on your McQ and Miller point.

I'd have been fine with unloading Loui and more at the deadline, playoffs be damned, but I accept that's just not reality when a team is in a playoff spot. Sends a bad message, similar to intentionally tanking.

I admit to being more patient than many here, and I'm not sure if "Desperate" is the way I want the GM to act in August. I have gripes with some of his moves, as I would with any GM, and I do agree that rebuilding while trying to contend is difficult to say the least.

I like the way they've stocked the cupboard and am curious to see what happens next, but again, I'm prolly more patient than others.

Not sure how much blame to assess to one GM for not closing a deal, when it takes 2 to tango.

Also, I don't see the Backes signing as being his undoing. I think we're going to like him at least for the first 3 or 4 years, but you could be right. I suppose as he ages we could look back fondly on the Chris Kelly contract! DOH!

Two quick thoughts:

1. I'm patient as well with the future. I have no need for them to act like they need to compete for a Cup this year, or even next. But next year ought to be a possibility, IMO, because their key offensive players are in or approaching the end of their primes. And I don't see enough urgency to build a real D for next season, let alone this year. The kids will not be ready by then. Maybe not close.

2. I do think the last two years of Backes could sting. $6M to a 36 year old with a ton of wear and tear may be a real problem for a team looking to compete.

 

[Coach Parker]

Two quick thoughts:

1. I'm patient as well with the future. I have no need for them to act like they need to compete for a Cup this year, or even next. But next year ought to be a possibility, IMO, because their key offensive players are in or approaching the end of their primes. And I don't see enough urgency to build a real D for next season, let alone this year. The kids will not be ready by then. Maybe not close.

2. I do think the last two years of Backes could sting. $6M to a 36 year old with a ton of wear and tear may be a real problem for a team looking to compete.

Lack of direction is the concern.

1. Trade young future core players like Lucic and Hamilton for 1sts.
2. Draft, draft, draft.
3. Sit Morrow and Colin Miller while Liles and McQuaid eat up ice time.
4. Then buyout Seidenberg and sign Backes long-term?
5. Finish in the worst possible position in the NHL two years in a row.

I am concerned this is the Burke/Toronto approach which was a complete disaster.

 

[Duguay]

You are right, it doesn't matter how I felt about the player personally. It mattered what Clode and Co thought of him though. Personally, I thought he was as bad defensively as any d-man on the team his last year in Boston, and I said that a month or so into the season, not after he was dealt. Given that Sweeney supposedly tried to extend Dougie, it would seem that they were willing to work with him on the D stuff and were well aware that they would not be getting immediate help back if he was dealt.


That being said, did Hamilton help the B's make the playoffs in 2014-15?

Like they didn't have the hammer. Like this scenario doesn't play out off season after off season. The guy was a RFA, not a leper for heavens sake! (;

They couldn't handle that?

And agreed Clode and Co. are responsible to be sure, and will be held as such.

Not having patience with young players has been another issue in Boston that is shared by both Management & Fans. It leads to nothing good.

If I had a nickel every time someone put the blame on the 19/20/21/22 year old around here.

Draft well, develop well, use assets well. The team needs to take the onus in guidance and development.

That being said, did Connor McDavid help the Oilers make the playoffs last year?

 

[GloryDaze4877]

Lack of direction is the concern.

1. Trade young future core players like Lucic and Hamilton for 1sts.
2. Draft, draft, draft.
3. Sit Morrow and Colin Miller while Liles and McQuaid eat up ice time.
4. Then buyout Seidenberg and sign Backes long-term?
5. Finish in the worst possible position in the NHL two years in a row.

I am concerned this is the Burke/Toronto approach which was a complete disaster.

Lucic (age 28) this season as a FA. Would not categorize him as a future core player. If anything, the reason he was dealt was because management thought he would not be worth the contract he was going to get as he aged (and was no longer a core guy).

I think one of the reasons Dougie was moved was because he didn't want to be a "future core player". From what I have seen of him the last two seasons, I'm not sure he's capable of being a future core player?

Also, for the people saying,

"ZOMG, we traded Dougie for a 1st and two 2nds, and Lindholm or Trouba would cost us four firsts!!!!"

Newsflash: Lindholm/Trouba>>>Dougie

 

[GloryDaze4877]

Like they didn't have the hammer. Like this scenario doesn't play out off season after off season. The guy was a RFA, not a leper for heavens sake! (;

They couldn't handle that?

And agreed Clode and Co. are responsible to be sure, and will be held as such.

Not having patience with young players has been another issue in Boston that is shared by both Management & Fans. It leads to nothing good.

If I had a nickel every time someone put the blame on the 19/20/21/22 year old around here.

Draft well, develop well, use assets well. The team needs to take the onus in guidance and development.

That being said, did Connor McDavid help the Oilers make the playoffs last year?

Well, from what I was told, the B's offered MORE money than Calgary, so there goes your theory about impatience with Dougie. They wanted him back, he didn't want to be here.

That being said, did you just compare Dougie to McJesus?

Not...even...close.

 

[World of Wardlow]

I'm not sure I like a deal involving Spooner unless a good young centre comes back. Our depth at C would be too old, which in 2-3 years we'd have to go looking for C depth.

 

[EverettMike]

Lucic (age 28) this season as a FA. Would not categorize him as a future core player. If anything, the reason he was dealt was because management thought he would not be worth the contract he was going to get as he aged (and was no longer a core guy).

I think one of the reasons Dougie was moved was because he didn't want to be a "future core player". From what I have seen of him the last two seasons, I'm not sure he's capable of being a future core player?

Also, for the people saying,

"ZOMG, we traded Dougie for a 1st and two 2nds, and Lindholm or Trouba would cost us four firsts!!!!"

Newsflash: Lindholm/Trouba>>>Dougie

There age 21 seasons? Which is what Dougie was coming off of when we traded him?

Dougie>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Lindholm>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Trouba

In fact, Dougie's much maligned season in Calgary is better than any season Trouba has had.

Lindholm was a beast last year though. Sign me up, 4 first round picks.

 

[GloryDaze4877]

There age 21 seasons? Which is what Dougie was coming off of when we traded him?

Dougie>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Lindholm>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Trouba

In fact, Dougie's much maligned season in Calgary is better than any season Trouba has had.

Lindholm was a beast last year though. Sign me up, 4 first round picks.

Mike, you have your preferences, I have mine.

Trouba is light years better defensively than Dougie, who was a Trainwreck in his own end his last season here. Last year in Calgary, I watched him get pushed around in front of the net frequently, by guys like Nathan "Bleeping" Gerbe.

Wish I was kidding.

 

[EverettMike]

Mike, you have your preferences, I have mine.

Trouba is light years better defensively than Dougie, who was a Trainwreck in his own end his last season here. Last year in Calgary, I watched him get pushed around in front of the net frequently, by guys like Nathan "Bleeping" Gerbe.

Wish I was kidding.

Take a peak at their age 21 season in regards to their relative Corsi for and Fenwick for percentages, then explain how he was "a trainwreck in his own end" that season.

Here's a hint, the numbers say the complete opposite.

Meanwhile Trouba is completely slight above average to sightly below average at two of the most important things a defenseman can do to help his team. All while being far inferior on offense to Dougie.

 

[patty59]

There age 21 seasons? Which is what Dougie was coming off of when we traded him?

Dougie>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Lindholm>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Trouba

In fact, Dougie's much maligned season in Calgary is better than any season Trouba has had.

Lindholm was a beast last year though. Sign me up, 4 first round picks.

are you talking pts wise or actual play?