Arrest over Johnson death / released within 24 hours, investigation remains open

[Stephen]

It wasn't near neck high and didn't remotely have the delivery as with Petgrave. Petgrave's actions at looked to be an attempt to impede Johnson, which given he was leading with his skates was reckless.

I'll let LE and The Courts take it from here but IMO there is enough there to charge him with manslaughter.

If this was a hip check gone bad I would agree with no charges but doesn't look it to me.

To me, Petgrave probably meant to get a body part on Johnson to impede his east west movement. I would suggest it’s the same impulse that makes a guy want to stick a knee out creating a knee on knee collision… could be dirty, could be anything… except he was flying through the air and his bodily coordination was obviously not there.

 

[jjp66]

i don't know that he was trying to actually kick johnson in the throat, but my belief is that he stuck his leg out recklessly to impede Johnson once he realized he wasn't going to be able to make the hit.

 

[nbwingsfan]

When did I or anyone in this thread say he purposely slit his throat?

What exactly would you call “headhunting with his skate blade” as you so eloquently put it?

 

[Empoleon8771]

Wasn't the exact same but it does show he has a history of kicking his leg out after missing a conventional body check. That precedent can be used to show it wasn't just a freak accident that his leg came kicking out like that. Once you accept that he did in fact intend to kick his leg out into Johnson, then you're in the territory of involuntary manslaughter.

But you still aren't. I'm going to keep posting this because it's entirely relevant for what counts as "manslaughter":

"The breach of duty must be so bad as to be gross, i.e. criminal. This was defined in Adomako [1994] 3 All ER 79 as follows: having regard to the risk of death involved, was the conduct of the defendant so bad in all the circumstances as to amount to a criminal act or omission? The prosecution must prove the following two elements:

a) that the circumstances were such that a reasonably prudent person in the defendant's position would have foreseen a serious and obvious risk of death arising from the defendant's act or omission;

b) that the breach of duty was, in all the circumstances, so reprehensible and fell so far below the standards to be expected of a person in the defendant's position with his qualifications, experience and responsibilities that it amounted to a crime."

The prosecutors need to prove both of these to be without a doubt true for him to be found guilty. I fundamentally do not see how these actions meet these requirements, even if you somehow assume that he had a history of sticking out his leg after missing a body check. There is no way a reasonably prudent person would expect that action to lead to a player's death.

 

[Phion Keneuf]

i don't know that he was trying to actually kick johnson in the throat, but my belief is that he stuck his leg out recklessly to impede Johnson once he realized he wasn't going to be able to make the hit.

Yup that’s what it looked like to me.

Involuntary manslaughter seems about right.

 

[ScottishCanuck]

Hey Folks,

Again, please do not post videos of the incident. Some people don’t want to see that.

Thank you.

The video I posted didn’t show contact, only the slow mo of the clear contact with Petgrave’s skate, followed by his leg being thrust upwards.

 

[robertmac43]

without an intention to kill or to cause grievous bodily harm,

Freak accident could fit in this definition? Clearly states without an intention...

 

[Rebels57]

Half the nhl leave their leg out before during or after hits

Theres a difference between leg coming off the ice due to your balance shifting during a hit...and missing your hit and recklessly kicking your leg out to make sure you "get a piece" and killing someone in the process.

 

[robertmac43]

It think presidents are set by some kind of committee or something.

lol yeah saw that and didn't go back to edit.... Knew someone would call me out

 

[nbwingsfan]

Wasn't the exact same but it does show he has a history of kicking his leg out after missing a conventional body check. That precedent can be used to show it wasn't just a freak accident that his leg came kicking out like that. Once you accept that he did in fact intend to kick his leg out into Johnson, then you're in the territory of involuntary manslaughter.

I’m not really following the going shin on shin puts you into “kick someone in the face territory” motive here but sure.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

One of Johnson's teammates speaking on the matter.

"I need to address something about the accident," Michaud, who is from Cloquet, posted to his Twitter account Monday. "We wholeheartedly stand with Matt Petgrave. The hate that Matt is receiving is terrible and completely uncalled for. I was at ice level on the bench closest to the accident, I saw both players moving fast.

"The unintentional clip of the Panther player's leg by the Sheffield player caused the somersault," continued Michaud. "It's clear to me his actions were unintentional and anyone suggesting otherwise is mistaken. Let's come together and not spread unwarranted hate to someone who needs our support."

MSN

 

[stampedingviking]

Adam Johnson: Manslaughter arrest over ice hockey player's death

A man is held in connection with the death of Nottingham Panthers player Adam Johnson.

www.bbc.co.uk

Only broke in UK a few minutes ago. Arrested for Manslaughter. Please note arrested NOT charged at this time.

He was arrested for suspected manslaughter.

 

[MikeyMike01]

But you still aren't. I'm going to keep posting this because it's entirely relevant for what counts as "manslaughter":

"The breach of duty must be so bad as to be gross, i.e. criminal. This was defined in Adomako [1994] 3 All ER 79 as follows: having regard to the risk of death involved, was the conduct of the defendant so bad in all the circumstances as to amount to a criminal act or omission? The prosecution must prove the following two elements:

a) that the circumstances were such that a reasonably prudent person in the defendant's position would have foreseen a serious and obvious risk of death arising from the defendant's act or omission;

b) that the breach of duty was, in all the circumstances, so reprehensible and fell so far below the standards to be expected of a person in the defendant's position with his qualifications, experience and responsibilities that it amounted to a crime."

The prosecutors need to prove both of these to be without a doubt true for him to be found guilty. I fundamentally do not see how these actions meet these requirements, even if you somehow assume that he had a history of sticking out his leg after missing a body check. There is no way a reasonably prudent person would expect that action to lead to a player's death.

Just based on what’s available to the public, there’s a compelling case for both A and B. Ostensibly the authorities have more evidence than that.

 

[robertmac43]

for everyone saying it was an accident..you do know this same player did the same exact kick before. it wasn't a freak accident

This is such an aggressive and unfair stretch of reality.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Just based on what’s available to the public, there’s a compelling case for both A and B. Ostensibly the authorities have more evidence than that.

There really isn't. It's a massive stretch for both.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

for everyone saying it was an accident..you do know this same player did the same exact kick before. it wasn't a freak accident

Source?

 

[nbwingsfan]

Yup that’s what it looked like to me.

Involuntary manslaughter seems about right.

 

[stampedingviking]

Do they have preliminary inquiries before trials in the UK? I don't think this would ever make it to trial in Canada but stranger things have happened.

Yes, it's why he has been arrested for suspected manslaughter. It gives the police more time to make enquiries,

 

[MikeyMike01]

There really isn't. It's a massive stretch for both.

If that video looks purely accidental, and a natural hockey play to you, I’m not sure what to tell you.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Just based on what’s available to the public, there’s a compelling case for both A and B. Ostensibly the authorities have more evidence than that.

What? When you stick your leg out your first thought is “someone could die”?


That’s a stretch if I’ve ever seen one.

 

[andora]

Theres a difference between leg coming off the ice due to your balance shifting during a hit...and missing your hit and recklessly kicking your leg out to make sure you "get a piece" and killing someone in the process.

Come back into the middle of the spectrum a bit - players leave their legs out intentionally constantly

Thats all i was replying with, it happens every game

 

[super6646]

No it isn't. Taken from Reddit regarding UK manslaughter laws:

"The breach of duty must be so bad as to be gross, i.e. criminal. This was defined in Adomako [1994] 3 All ER 79 as follows: having regard to the risk of death involved, was the conduct of the defendant so bad in all the circumstances as to amount to a criminal act or omission? The prosecution must prove the following two elements:

a) that the circumstances were such that a reasonably prudent person in the defendant's position would have foreseen a serious and obvious risk of death arising from the defendant's act or omission;

b) that the breach of duty was, in all the circumstances, so reprehensible and fell so far below the standards to be expected of a person in the defendant's position with his qualifications, experience and responsibilities that it amounted to a crime."

There needs to be way more than "it was reckless" to actually get a charge like this to stick. Which is why it's nonsensical that he's getting arrested for this, the incident doesn't even remotely hit both of these points. Under any reasonable situation, these charges should be dropped because there is no way you can seriously argue that this incident without any doubt rose to this level.

I don’t disagree lol. But people keep bringing up intent to this conversation when it’s irrelevant. What the above is describing is reckless and negligent behaviour, just with legal jargon added in.

 

[Statto]

It is not that unusual in the UK for someone to be arrested but not ultimately charged/brought to trial pending investigation. This is also why they will not name the person arrested even though his name was publicized after Johnson got cut.

Not saying no charges/no trial is what will happen here, but give the seriousness and novelty of the incident, it’s not all that surprising there was an arrest. There may be some precedent in rugby but very possible this is the first fatal hockey incident of this nature.

I believe arresting someone gives UK police more authority to investigate than had they investigated without an arrest, as well.

He’s arrested and will be under ‘caution’ which means he will likely have a lawyer and he will have been read his rights. Then the custody clock begins and they get 24hrs (IIRC) in custody to charge him , apply to a judge for an extension to the clock (not easy to get) or release him without charge. They can release him on ‘police bail’ to investigate further at which point the 24hr clock is paused until he goes back to the police station.

I know he got charged in Great Britain not Canada so maybe their definition is different but based on this definition below I don’t think he had intention to cause bodily harm at all.



Manslaughter is considered a homicide that was committed without the intention to cause death, although there may have been an intention to cause bodily harm.

Arrested not charged, it’s a big difference.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Not sure if it's up to the level of manslaughter, but there should be some charge for the extremely reckless behavior that led to his death.

A mule kick to the neck is not just a hockey accident.

He didn't intend to kill him obviously, but same as a DUI driver doesn't intend to kill someone, when they do they have consequences

 

[Nemesis Prime]

Matt Petgrave must have Bruce Lee like reflexes to get his skate up so fast and perfectly aligned with Johnson's neck.