Arrest over Johnson death / released within 24 hours, investigation remains open

[MikeyMike01]

That is not what determines if it's "manslaughter". What determines if it's manslaughter is:

1. There was an obvious risk of death that Petgrave ignored when doing his action.
2. Petgrave acted in a way that was far below any expected professional hockey player in his shoes.

Neither of these look true to me. I completely buy that Petgrave tried to stick out his leg to impede Johnson, but that alone doesn't take it to "manslaughter" risk. There is no reasonable way to argue that "sticking out your leg to impede a player" at all registers as a major risk of death for any normal hockey player, nor was it a play that no other hockey player would ever consider commiting.

Is it dirty? Sure, you can definitely argue that. But being a dirty hockey play doesn't take something to that criminal level.

If you believe the kick was intentional, which I do, then those two criteria are met.

 

[masa2009]

In the 1990s, there was the Miran Schrott/Jim Boni case, and there was a similar debate, with Boni being prosecuted by Italian authorities, while most North American observers found it unwarranted and deemed the incident to be the unfortunate outcome of a physical play. So that kind of dynamic existed before the culture wars. Or at least, it was a different culture war.

 

[KillerMillerTime]

Theres a difference between leg coming off the ice due to your balance shifting during a hit...and missing your hit and recklessly kicking your leg out to make sure you "get a piece" and killing someone in the process.

This is the crux of the matter and some people have a POV of it being unintentional and an accudent. Perfectly understandable POV. Others think the way he went horizontal to the ice he was in fact making some attempt at impeding Johnson.

No one thinks he was intentionally trying to injure Johnson. However those believing he tried to impede him thinks he was reckless.

 

[ScottishCanuck]

If you believe the kick was intentional, which I do, then those two criteria are met.

It wasn’t a kick, never mind an intentional one.

 

[rojac]

As for the whole arrest thing, even in the US and Canada, an arrest doesn't necessarily mean a charge follows, at least based on how things are portrayedon numerous police shows. I believe you can arrest someone on suspicion, like the case here, but you can only in hold them for so long before you either have to charge them or let them go.

As for arrests in sports, there have been boxers who have been charged with manslaughter, such as former World Heavyweight Champ Max Baer, for doing enough damage to their damage to result in their opponent's death either immediately or within a day or two.

 

[Rebels57]

Again come back - i responded you talking about the previous one that is circulating NOT this one

Ahh ok..yes..fair point. That one there is more gray area around the intent with the leg. I'll give you that.

It wasn’t a kick, never mind an intentional one.

How would you describe it if not a kick?

 

[McShogun99]

There's a lot of rocket surgeons in this thread that don't understand the difference between manslaughter and murder. Playing sports doesn't automatically absolve you from criminal liability for an act results in death.

Exactly. If I'm playing recreational baseball, strike out and throw my bat which then hits someone in the head and kills them then it's manslaughter even though my intention was not to hit someone. It also doesn't mean that I get found guilty or if I am found guilty I could just receive a minimal sentence or lesser charge.

It's obvious that he didn't intend to kick the other player in the neck but he did stick out his leg to either try to trip, slow down or kick him in a lower part of his body. Once his back skate clipped the other players skate it sent his kicking foot upward. When you watch it in slow motion you can see him extending his leg out before his skate makes contact with the other players skate.

 

[SannywithoutCompy]

Ahh ok..yes..fair point. That one there is more gray area around the intent with the leg. I'll give you that.



How would you describe it if not a kick?

A loss of balance. Unless you believe he was doing Tae Kwon do on skates

 

[rojac]

I know he got charged in Great Britain not Canada so maybe their definition is different but based on this definition below I don’t think he had intention to cause bodily harm at all.



Manslaughter is considered a homicide that was committed without the intention to cause death, although there may have been an intention to cause bodily harm.

And the way I read that definition is that there may have been an intent to do bodily harm, but such intent is not required. I think that part is included to basically clarify that a homicide that resulted from trying to hurt someone without trying to kill them falls under the definition of manslaughter.

 

[The Burdened]

A loss of balance. Unless you believe he was doing Tae Kwon do on skates

Bro did you watch it?

He literally kicks him. Now like you said, how he ended up there in that postion is the story. he lost balance? he caught a divot in the ice? he clipped another players skate? he was trying take Johnson out of the play?

but the kick happened. To say there is no kick is disingenuous and dishonest. distinct kicking motion.

 

[KillerMillerTime]

It wasn’t a kick, never mind an intentional one.

So it was an obstruction willfully performed by Petgrave resulting in Johnson's neck being sliced, killing him. Doesn't make any different to me if you believe he was trying to impede Johnson without a kicking motion. Petgrave I'm sure knows how sharp skates are.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Exactly. If I'm playing recreational baseball, strike out and throw my bat which then hits someone in the head and kills them then it's manslaughter even though my intention was not to hit someone. It also doesn't mean that I get found guilty or if I am found guilty I could just receive a minimal sentence or lesser charge.

What about if you're charging a base and the baseman is blocking the bag so you run into him and your knee hits them in the face as a result of an awkward collision, then they end up in a coma because of a TBI? Because that's a lot more comparable to what happened here.

 

[AlainVigneaultsGum]

If Petgrave were coordinated enough to pull that off intentionally, he wouldn't be playing in a f***ing Z-tier English league.

Jesus f***ing christ.

 

[Snubbed4Vezina]

Is it possible to divorce what actually happened from the culture war bullshit at this point

That goes for pretty much everything these days. Critical thinking is at an all time low.

 

[Warden of the North]

A person died.

Of course there should be a proper investigation into the circumstances. If charges are found to be appropriate then by all means, lay them. The jury can make a decision.

 

[SannywithoutCompy]

Bro did you watch it?

He literally kicks him. Now like you said, how he ended up there in that postion is the story. he lost balance? he caught a divot in the ice? he clipped another players skate? he was trying take Johnson out of the play?

but the kick happened. To say there is no kick is disingenuous and dishonest. distinct kicking motion.

He lost his balance and got spun around when trying to avoid a check. Hence, skate comes up with rotational energy. No kicking motion.

 

[5 Minute Major]

I think I was the first to say it here that what Petgrave did was dirty. I was lambasted for it. He kicked at, which is NOT a hockey play, and delivered a fatal wound to Adam Johnson. the charges are appropriate.

I’ll leave it at that.

 

[SI90]

So ridiculous. It was a freak accident.

 

[FirstRowUpperDeck]

I haven't read the entire thread, and certainly don't know British law. I did see the video and it does look to me like there was a bit of an intentional or at least reckless kick. I also heard no less than Gretsky comment that it might not have been an accident, so I can believe there is a variation of opinion on this.

So, while I would think this is a legal overreach in most cases, I can see why the police are at least investigating. And, if British law is anything like the US, my opinion is that he probably cannot be seen as guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt, so I doubt he will be convicted.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Am I wrong to think this is the biggest story in sports in many years? I happen to think this is the right call. I don't think he meant to kill the guy but I think he was willfully reckless and knew what he was doing. But wow, to see this happen is really something.

 

[theVladiator]

His teammate sitting on the bench closest to the hit says it was an accident. But you go ahead and draw absolute conclusions from that blurry video.

Something can be both an accident and a manslaughter at the same time. Needless to say, how many times the refs make a wrong call staring at the play? It's one of those things where the video will be the best witness. Everything would have happened so fast, it would have been difficult for a bystander to understand what's going on.

The police will contact kinesiologists to have their expert opinion on whether the leg motion would have to be deliberate or involuntary/reactionary. There is not need to condemn the guy just yet, but likewise exonerating him is quite premature as well. Looks like police is doing their job, let them.

 

[robertmac43]

Nope, his family wants charges laid as it wasn't a hockey play.

As they should.

None of the family members have said that. They want the incident investigated but from the start they acknowledged there was no intent.

 

[RobBrown4PM]

I’ll offer a few points here as a guy who’s played/watched for 20 years-

When your skates get upended, especially just one, you’re kinda at the mercy of gravity and wherever the ice takes you. I don’t think you can react in time to see a guy and direct your skate at them as a bang bang. You’re also putting your legs/feet in various angles when stopping or whatever else. Him just losing an edge is well within the realm of possibilities

He’s not even looking at Johnson (it is grainy footage, but watch his head)

Using pims as a reason why he’d wanna take a guy’s head off is weird and indicates little understanding of the game or culture

If we're judging people's intentions to commit bodily and mortal harm to others by the number they have accrued in the PIMS column, then Dave Williams must be one of the worlds greatest serial killers.

 

[Jee]

To me, it looked like he definitely intentionally tried to stop Adam with his leg, but failed with his balance and unintentionally did a kicking motion to his neck. Manslaughter.

 

[heynowbababooey]

I refused to watch the video at first but after all the discussion of whether or not it was intentional I had to take a look. Petgrave in my opinion purposely kicked his leg up. There was intent there. His intent to injure resulted in someone's death. He should be held accountable.