Arrest over Johnson death / released within 24 hours, investigation remains open

[I Hate Philadelphia]

I do have questions about the president this sets for the sport in the UK. Are other freak accidents going to lead to manslaughter charges?

I think they have a Prime Minister not a president.

 

[Alicat]

Can we put something in the title to clarify that he has not been charged? It is really important in this case as the legal systems outside of the US are much different.

 

[Sideline]

There's a lot of rocket surgeons in this thread that don't understand the difference between manslaughter and murder. Playing sports doesn't automatically absolve you from criminal liability for an act results in death.

 

[Alicat]

I think they have a Prime Minister not a president.

They have a Prime Minister

 

[Empoleon8771]

If that video looks purely accidental, and a natural hockey play to you, I’m not sure what to tell you.

That is not what determines if it's "manslaughter". What determines if it's manslaughter is:

1. There was an obvious risk of death that Petgrave ignored when doing his action.
2. Petgrave acted in a way that was far below any expected professional hockey player in his shoes.

Neither of these look true to me. I completely buy that Petgrave tried to stick out his leg to impede Johnson, but that alone doesn't take it to "manslaughter" risk. There is no reasonable way to argue that "sticking out your leg to impede a player" at all registers as a major risk of death for any normal hockey player, nor was it a play that no other hockey player would ever consider commiting.

Is it dirty? Sure, you can definitely argue that. But being a dirty hockey play doesn't take something to that criminal level.

 

[Peter Griffin]

It's reckless but hard to see it as criminal

Until someone dies due to being reckless.

 

[Rebels57]

Come back into the middle of the spectrum a bit - players leave their legs out intentionally constantly

Thats all i was replying with, it happens every game

I just want to add that it wasn't just a matter of "leaving his leg out."

It was a violent kick and when you see the video, there is a follow-through to it like when you are kicking off of something. I still don't think his neck was the target because that would just be insanity...but I do think there is no logical way to conclude he did not mean to kick him at all.

 

[Zrhutch]

I’ll offer a few points here as a guy who’s played/watched for 20 years-

When your skates get upended, especially just one, you’re kinda at the mercy of gravity and wherever the ice takes you. I don’t think you can react in time to see a guy and direct your skate at them as a bang bang. You’re also putting your legs/feet in various angles when stopping or whatever else. Him just losing an edge is well within the realm of possibilities

He’s not even looking at Johnson (it is grainy footage, but watch his head)

Using pims as a reason why he’d wanna take a guy’s head off is weird and indicates little understanding of the game or culture

 

[Rebels57]

That is not what determines if it's "manslaughter". What determines if it's manslaughter is:

1. There was an obvious risk of death that Petgrave ignored when doing his action.
2. Petgrave acted in a way that was far below any expected professional hockey player in his shoes.

Neither of these look true to me. I completely buy that Petgrave tried to stick out his leg to impede Johnson, but that alone doesn't take it to "manslaughter" risk. There is no reasonable way to argue that "sticking out your leg to impede a player" at all registers as a major risk of death for any normal hockey player, nor was it a play that no other hockey player would ever consider commiting.

Is it dirty? Sure, you can definitely argue that. But being a dirty hockey play doesn't take something to that criminal level.

I just mentioned this in my post above, but this wasn't merely "sticking out your leg." It was a KICK...which is not something you normally see on the ice and not something any player should ever consider doing with a blades on their feet. I don't think the neck was the target, but it was still a KICK, not just leaving a trailing leg out there. There's a significant difference.

 

[andora]

I just want to add that it wasn't just a matter of "leaving his leg out."

It was a violent kick and when you see the video, there is a follow-through to it like when you are kicking off of something. I still don't think his neck was the target because that would just be insanity...but I do think there is no logical way to conclude he did not mean to kick him at all.

Again come back - i responded you talking about the previous one that is circulating NOT this one

 

[FMichael]

Matt Petgrave must have Bruce Lee like reflexes to get his skate up so fast and perfectly aligned with Johnson's neck.

It certainly appears to be an 'exaggerated' kicking motion...Anytime I hit a rut/toe pick I'd just fall flat on my face minus the foot going 5 plus feet in the air...Then again I'm not a pro player.

 

[robertmac43]

Both Petgraves teammates and Johnson’s teammates are saying it was clearly an accident. I’d say they’d have the better view than anyone, no?

I believe Johnson's family have also come out and stated the same thing.

 

[DelZottoHitTheNetJK]

There's a reason blades making contact with necks are extremely, extremely rare. Blades simply don't wind up there by accident. ESPECIALLY when guys are upright.

This is the right move. I've seen the video. There's zero reason that skate blade should've been anywhere near where it wound up. Don't think he meant to kill anyone but it's the textbook definition of manslaughter. The amount of people calling this a "hockey accident" is mind blowing but not at all surprising.

 

[thaman8765678]

I believe Johnson's family have also come out and stated the same thing.

Nope, his family wants charges laid as it wasn't a hockey play.

As they should.

 

[Johnnyduke]

It certainly appears to be an 'exaggerated' kicking motion...Anytime I hit a rut/toe pick I'd just fall flat on my face minus the foot going 5 plus feet in the air...Then again I'm not a pro player.

Correct. A pro player would have even more control over the situation.

 

[Iwishihadaspacebar]

Just as a pre-empt in case it happens, a person can be given bail (no there is no money involved) and no further action be taken against them in time. Being given bail does not mean a guaranteed conviction / court case in the UK

 

[HockeyVirus]

I haven't watched the video on purpose, but some people say it could have been intentional (and not meaning to kill him but some say he looks to deliberately make a kicking motion). If so, there is some merit to an investigation. If there is some evidence it was deliberate it should go to trial to argue that.

Otherwise, a freak accident in a sports game, investigate and let them go if that is the determination.

 

[Shrimper]

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Nope, his family wants charges laid as it wasn't a hockey play.

As they should.

Oh yeah they're really out for blood

 

[DownIsTheNewUp]

That is not what determines if it's "manslaughter". What determines if it's manslaughter is:

1. There was an obvious risk of death that Petgrave ignored when doing his action.
2. Petgrave acted in a way that was far below any expected professional hockey player in his shoes.

Neither of these look true to me. I completely buy that Petgrave tried to stick out his leg to impede Johnson, but that alone doesn't take it to "manslaughter" risk. There is no reasonable way to argue that "sticking out your leg to impede a player" at all registers as a major risk of death for any normal hockey player, nor was it a play that no other hockey player would ever consider commiting.

Is it dirty? Sure, you can definitely argue that. But being a dirty hockey play doesn't take something to that criminal level.

I would say both are absolutely true.
1. Kicking your skate up to neck level is an obvious risk of death. (It lead to a death here so how is this even debatable?)
2. Kicking your skate up to neck level isn’t even remotely within the norms of hockey.

 

[KillerMillerTime]

To me, Petgrave probably meant to get a body part on Johnson to impede his east west movement. I would suggest it’s the same impulse that makes a guy want to stick a knee out creating a knee on knee collision… could be dirty, could be anything… except he was flying through the air and his bodily coordination was obviously not there.

Yes I can understand that POV. It just appears so unnatural that its hard for me to believe that he was totally out of control with his body.

I have played only at very very low levels in Freshmen hockey in Greater Boston
in 1969-70 but I have coached Midget Level and watched the sport 60 years.

Never in my life have I seen a player collide like this.

 

[KillerMillerTime]

Not sure if it's up to the level of manslaughter, but there should be some charge for the extremely reckless behavior that led to his death.

A mule kick to the neck is not just a hockey accident.

He didn't intend to kill him obviously, but same as a DUI driver doesn't intend to kill someone, when they do they have consequences

I agree, further if there is other video that can be provided showing similar plays
(Not Wideman's PS...lol) I will change my opinion.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

I agree, further if there is other video that can be provided showing similar plays
(Not Wideman's PS...lol) I will change my opinion.

His teammate sitting on the bench closest to the hit says it was an accident. But you go ahead and draw absolute conclusions from that blurry video.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Until someone dies due to being reckless.

There still has to be certain level of recklessness though, with the death.

I don't see it rising to criminality and manslaughter. I still see it as largely a freak accident

 

[SannywithoutCompy]

Unless the spirit of Edson Barboza somehow took over, I don't see how anyone can say this is intentional.

Just a mix of backwards views and people who don't know how to skate.