Around the NHL 10 - 2022/23

[buggs]

Comparing eras is so difficult. For me no question if you put a guy like Mc David head to head against Gretzky, Mc David would torch him, by virtue of his skating, and edgework. Skating today is so much better, I mean there were still players in the 70s and 80s who couldn't skate backwards. So it's a tough comparision. The league today is more talented than ever, there's a recognition that goaltending is the key to success too.
,

This is a great post overall, well done. Your last paragraph though I'd take small issue with.

I agree 100% McDavid would torch Gretzky, but we have to consider the era there as well. Gretzky's coaching probably did consist mostly of his dad and his off-season regime would have been so very different. Put Gretzky in a development program(s) like McDavid has experienced and I think we have an entirely different conversation going on. The improvements in skill development, nutrition, strength training have been astronomical.

This is the biggest difference between era's to me (not to take anything away from the excellent goaltending discussion), regardless of sport. I remember my parents buying furniture from Kenny Ploen in the offseason for heaven's sake. Kevin McHale's offseason regime consisted of fishing and drinking beer on Minnesota lakes (basketball player for Celtics for those that aren't aware) yet he was a pretty dominant power forward in his era that had Bird, Magic, Kareem and others. The Hull brothers would likely be considered as raging alcoholics by today's standards and the sheer number of players that used to smoke a couple of packs a day boggles the mind. I'm not convinced Bjorn Borg could take a set off Federer if you don't factor in eras and regimes.

Today's athletes are by far the best of the bunch, but if we're ever to compare eras we have to consider a myriad of intangibles.

 

[DeepFrickinValue]

This is a great post overall, well done. Your last paragraph though I'd take small issue with.

I agree 100% McDavid would torch Gretzky, but we have to consider the era there as well. Gretzky's coaching probably did consist mostly of his dad and his off-season regime would have been so very different. Put Gretzky in a development program(s) like McDavid has experienced and I think we have an entirely different conversation going on. The improvements in skill development, nutrition, strength training have been astronomical.

This is the biggest difference between era's to me (not to take anything away from the excellent goaltending discussion), regardless of sport. I remember my parents buying furniture from Kenny Ploen in the offseason for heaven's sake. Kevin McHale's offseason regime consisted of fishing and drinking beer on Minnesota lakes (basketball player for Celtics for those that aren't aware) yet he was a pretty dominant power forward in his era that had Bird, Magic, Kareem and others. The Hull brothers would likely be considered as raging alcoholics by today's standards and the sheer number of players that used to smoke a couple of packs a day boggles the mind. I'm not convinced Bjorn Borg could take a set off Federer if you don't factor in eras and regimes.

Today's athletes are by far the best of the bunch, but if we're ever to compare eras we have to consider a myriad of intangibles.

Let’s not forget about Gretzky being untouchable. Didn’t have to deal with getting hit and was able to wear a joke for (Jofa voice recognition is joke for a helmet - I’ll leave it) helmet

 

[Daximus]

He's definitely one of the greatest. I just put a Lemieux ahead. Had he been healthy and not missed 3 years due to cancer in his peak I don't think we are having a conversation about the goal record right now.

You could say that about a lot of players though. If only Bure's and Orr's knees didn't give out. If only Bossy's hip was better. If only Wayne's back didn't give out on him. If only Lindros's brain wasn't rattled so much. If only butt candies, something something Christmas.

The fact of the matter is Ovechkin has played his entire career without missing much time and during that stretch has been more physical than any of those guys save maybe Lindros. I'm pretty sure he's probably missed more time by refusing to play in All Star games than he has from actual injuries. Longevity means something in the grand scheme of things. And the Russian machine has kept on ticking while putting up insane goal totals well into what should be his twilight years.

watching these vs some of the 80s. sheesh.

Yeah there's no doubt in my mind there has never been a better pure sniper in this game. The dude can beat anyone clean and is probably one of the better pure shooters the game has ever seen.

 

[surixon]

You could say that about a lot of players though. If only Bure's and Orr's knees didn't give out. If only Bossy's hip was better. If only Wayne's back didn't give out on him. If only Lindros's brain wasn't rattled so much. If only butt candies, something something Christmas.

The fact of the matter is Ovechkin has played his entire career without missing much time and during that stretch has been more physical than any of those guys save maybe Lindros. I'm pretty sure he's probably missed more time by refusing to play in All Star games than he has from actual injuries. Longevity means something in the grand scheme of things. And the Russian machine has kept on ticking while putting up insane goal totals well into what should be his twilight years.



Yeah there's no doubt in my mind there has never been a better pure sniper in this game. The dude can beat anyone clean and is probably one of the better pure shooters the game has ever seen.

Yes longevity matters but I have a hard time holding someone who had a life threatening illness like cancer on the person. That's not something hockey related that prevented them from playing.

Anyhow we can agree to disagree on this, I feel Lwmieux was a better goal scorer than Ovie and his .82 gpg in both the 80's and 90's would indicate he wasn't being propped up by the 80's in terms of goals.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Lemieux and Gretzky didn’t play in the salary cap era. There were truly some awful teams and absolute power houses back in the 80s.

Bouncy bouncy goalies was standard with tiny pads. . Lots of rebounds and the 5 hole was a 50 hole back in the day.

Sure - different times. Look at those era adjusted stats a ways back.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

The annoying thing about Gretz is no one will ever break his records or be as good. It kind of ruins the record books as I think it’s exciting in other sports where every record is up for grabs every year.
With Gretz it’s like no matter how good players play they don’t have a shot so it’s kind of same old.


All athletes deal with injuries it’s same old. How good would Karlsson been without injuries. Few players ever make it their whole careers without injuries slowing them down, which could be a issue with Eels.

Sure - but some more than others. Lemieux and Orr are 2 of the best whose careers were most heavily affected by health.

I can remember when Howe's records were regarded that way. Then Gretzky came along.

It certainly would be, if I was tasked with flying an airplane.

It would just be 'Florida Man Does Florida Man Thing'.

 

[Daximus]

Yes longevity matters but I have a hard time holding someone who had a life threatening illness like cancer on the person. That's not something hockey related that prevented them from playing.

Anyhow we can agree to disagree on this, I feel Lwmieux was a better goal scorer than Ovie and his .82 gpg in both the 80's and 90's would indicate he wasn't being propped up by the 80's in terms of goals.

That's fair to say for sure. But in the end Ovi is gonna be at the top and he's gonna do it in less games played than almost anyone there.

 

[Adam da bomb]

Sure - but some more than others. Lemieux and Orr are 2 of the best whose careers were most heavily affected by health.

I can remember when Howe's records were regarded that way. Then Gretzky came along.



It would just be 'Florida Man Does Florida Man Thing'.

It’s a very different NHL. No one is expected to or can play 40 minutes a game anymore. Too many systems. Too much parity between worst and best. Too many changes in general.

Karlsson could have been the greatest players whoever played if he didn’t have his injuries. We don’t know who else would have been considered up there without injuries.

 

[Jetfaninflorida]

It would just be 'Florida Man Does Florida Man Thing'.

Doing Florida Man Thing could be pretty much anything. LOL

It's been like 25 years, and I still feel like an outsider here. Kind of like a tourist but one who doesn't do touristy things any more. Aside from a few of my inner circle of friends, everyone I know, and I mean EVERYONE, is extreme about something. The friends that I have that aren't extreme in some way, they are not actually Floridians. They are from somewhere else like me. Most people you will come across here have an outward appearance of normalcy. But anything other than a superficial discussion and you will find crazy town really fast.

 

[Gm0ney]

Here's the NHL average SV% since 1962-63...so you can see a few years of O6, then 1967-68 is when expansion began. Expansion years were 67 (+6), 70 (+2), 72 (+2), 74 (+2), 78 (-1), 79 (+4), 91 (+1), 92 (+2), 93 (+3), 98 (+1), 99 (+1), 2000 (+2), 2017 (+1), 2021 (+1).

The high is .916 in 1963-64. The low is .873 in 1981-82 and again in 1983-84.

League average SV% has been above .900 every season since 1996-97 (25 consecutive), after being below .900 ever year from 72-73 to 93-94 (21 consecutive).

SV% actually went up immediately after the original expansion in 1967. I'm guessing there was enough NHL talent being held down by lack of roster spots to supply 6 new teams. Things went downhill starting in 1971 and bottomed out in the mid-80s.

Things started trending back up in 1986-87. Better equipment? More talent from overseas? More clutch-and-grab? Butterfly goaltending style? Some combination of all of those?

The mid-90s was the dawn of the Dead Puck Era. Definitely more clutch and grab, widespread adoption of more effective goalie playing styles, and better defensive systems (e.g. the trap).

The crackdown on obstruction in 2005-06 is clear. This led to the most powerplay opportunities in league history that season which also would've dragged down SV%. 2005-06 was the season with the 7th most powerplay opportunities in NHL history and the lowest average .

The crackdown subsided, powerplay opps settled back down and the rise of SV% resumed until the post-expansion-era peak of .915 in 2014-15 and 2015-16. The NHL made some equipment changes around then and SV% have been on the decline since.

 

[DRW204]

Here's the NHL average SV% since 1962-63...so you can see a few years of O6, then 1967-68 is when expansion began. Expansion years were 67 (+6), 70 (+2), 72 (+2), 74 (+2), 78 (-1), 79 (+4), 91 (+1), 92 (+2), 93 (+3), 98 (+1), 99 (+1), 2000 (+2), 2017 (+1), 2021 (+1).

View attachment 622459

The high is .916 in 1963-64. The low is .873 in 1981-82 and again in 1983-84.

League average SV% has been above .900 every season since 1996-97 (25 consecutive), after being below .900 ever year from 72-73 to 93-94 (21 consecutive).

SV% actually went up immediately after the original expansion in 1967. I'm guessing there was enough NHL talent being held down by lack of roster spots to supply 6 new teams. Things went downhill starting in 1971 and bottomed out in the mid-80s.

Things started trending back up in 1986-87. Better equipment? More talent from overseas? More clutch-and-grab? Butterfly goaltending style? Some combination of all of those?

The mid-90s was the dawn of the Dead Puck Era. Definitely more clutch and grab, widespread adoption of more effective goalie playing styles, and better defensive systems (e.g. the trap).

The crackdown on obstruction in 2005-06 is clear. This led to the most powerplay opportunities in league history that season which also would've dragged down SV%. 2005-06 was the season with the 7th most powerplay opportunities in NHL history and the lowest average .

The crackdown subsided, powerplay opps settled back down and the rise of SV% resumed until the post-expansion-era peak of .915 in 2014-15 and 2015-16. The NHL made some equipment changes around then and SV% have been on the decline since.

Awesome post!
I think these days there's a good balance of scoring, defense and goaltending usually. I appreciate the video game scores from time to time but having them almost every game I think dilutes the value or remarkability of a goal if that makes sense.

 

[ps241]

He was an amazing scorer in his pomp -- and could pass the puck pretty well also. Seems to be experiencing a revival in his reputation as more than a goalmouth poacher, deservedly so.

Bossy was great on that line with Trottier and Gillies. Trottier was that 200 Foot playmaking centre, Gillies was the highly skilled, power forward, heavy weight, and Bossy was a rounded player but obviously an elite sniper.

One of my favourite lines of all time.

 

[SUX2BU]

Bloos vs flams tonight

Kadri should give big nose his water bottle back

 

[kanadalainen]

Bloos vs flams tonight

Kadri should give big nose his water bottle back

Schenn and Kadri had a little chat before the face off.

Edit - Barbashev pounds one home.

Come on Calgary you non-mellifluous melted amorphous mass of jiggling lipid encrusted semi-denaturized protein.

EDIT - it worked. 1 - 1 in the first.

 

[John Agar]

Doing Florida Man Thing could be pretty much anything. LOL

It's been like 25 years, and I still feel like an outsider here. Kind of like a tourist but one who doesn't do touristy things any more. Aside from a few of my inner circle of friends, everyone I know, and I mean EVERYONE, is extreme about something. The friends that I have that aren't extreme in some way, they are not actually Floridians. They are from somewhere else like me. Most people you will come across here have an outward appearance of normalcy. But anything other than a superficial discussion and you will find crazy town really fast.

Thank you for your backhanded compliments...

It means a lot...

 

[kanadalainen]

Calgary's D looks somewhat spooked.

 

[John Agar]

Calgary's D looks somewhat spooked.

I'd stop on a dime...

For Shania Twain...

If it was Shania chasing Me down...

I'd be back-peddling..... and get whiplash...

 

[kanadalainen]

I'd stop on a dime...

For Shania Twain...

If it was Shania chasing Me down...

I'd be back-peddling..... and get whiplash...

John. I've gotta say - your neural connections exhibit a favourable pattern/phenotype.

 

[John Agar]

John. I've gotta say - your neural connections exhibit a favourable pattern/phenotype.

I stopped worrying about things long ago...

I believe in neural connection...

Without the Drama side...

Serve others... serve them well...

And who Am I to deny anyone a Leopard...

Too much Cougar out there...

 

[blues10]

Bossy was great on that line with Trottier and Gillies. Trottier was that 200 Foot playmaking centre, Gillies was the highly skilled, power forward, heavy weight, and Bossy was a rounded player but obviously an elite sniper.

One of my favourite lines of all time.

For sure. I was not an Islanders fan but have pictures of both Bossy and Gillies hanging on the wall of my cottage. Special players. Will have to add a Trottier one day.

Speaking of Trottier. Four Cups with Islanders. Two cups with the Pengiuns with Jagr and Lemieux. Retired from hockey for a year and came back and was a player and assistant coach with the Penguins. Went on to win another Cup with the Avs as an assistant coach. His career is full of milestones including 2 x 5 goal games and a 6 point period.

There has been enough Ovi talk in the thread.

 

[WolfHouse]

I'm not painting anything. Just a little more precise language. He has averaged a 50 G per 82 game season pace. Gretzky averaged 49.3 per 82 games, BTW.

Again if we are adjusting for 82 games.... Maurice Richard's 50 goal season would equal a 76 goal season today - plus he played until age 37 in an era when hockey was basically violence on ice

Richard, Esposito, Gretzky and Brett Hull transformed their generation of hockey ' - I don't think we can say the same about ovie

 

[Adam da bomb]

Again if we are adjusting for 82 games.... Maurice Richard's 50 goal season would equal a 76 goal season today - plus he played until age 37 in an era when hockey was basically violence on ice

Richard, Esposito, Gretzky and Brett Hull transformed their generation of hockey ' - I don't think we can say the same about ovie

But the NHL has changed a lot since Richard’s day since Europeans got involved so better level of competition. Harder to score on better goalies get past better defense.

 

[buggs]

I stopped worrying about things long ago...

I believe in neural connection...

Without the Drama side...

Serve others... server them well...

And who Am I to deny anyone a Leopard...

Too much Cougar out there...

just so you know I read that as "sever" them well. Might be my issues, might be yours. I'd gamble on the former. It's why I drink, it settles me.

 

[Buffdog]

Here's the NHL average SV% since 1962-63...so you can see a few years of O6, then 1967-68 is when expansion began. Expansion years were 67 (+6), 70 (+2), 72 (+2), 74 (+2), 78 (-1), 79 (+4), 91 (+1), 92 (+2), 93 (+3), 98 (+1), 99 (+1), 2000 (+2), 2017 (+1), 2021 (+1).

View attachment 622459

The high is .916 in 1963-64. The low is .873 in 1981-82 and again in 1983-84.

League average SV% has been above .900 every season since 1996-97 (25 consecutive), after being below .900 ever year from 72-73 to 93-94 (21 consecutive).

SV% actually went up immediately after the original expansion in 1967. I'm guessing there was enough NHL talent being held down by lack of roster spots to supply 6 new teams. Things went downhill starting in 1971 and bottomed out in the mid-80s.

Things started trending back up in 1986-87. Better equipment? More talent from overseas? More clutch-and-grab? Butterfly goaltending style? Some combination of all of those?

The mid-90s was the dawn of the Dead Puck Era. Definitely more clutch and grab, widespread adoption of more effective goalie playing styles, and better defensive systems (e.g. the trap).

The crackdown on obstruction in 2005-06 is clear. This led to the most powerplay opportunities in league history that season which also would've dragged down SV%. 2005-06 was the season with the 7th most powerplay opportunities in NHL history and the lowest average .

The crackdown subsided, powerplay opps settled back down and the rise of SV% resumed until the post-expansion-era peak of .915 in 2014-15 and 2015-16. The NHL made some equipment changes around then and SV% have been on the decline since.

Not to be argumentative, but maybe the lower save percentage in the 80s was due to better shooters. The guys who are scoring get a say too

 

[ps241]

For sure. I was not an Islanders fan but have pictures of both Bossy and Gillies hanging on the wall of my cottage. Special players. Will have to add a Trottier one day.

Speaking of Trottier. Four Cups with Islanders. Two cups with the Pengiuns with Jagr and Lemieux. Retired from hockey for a year and came back and was a player and assistant coach with the Penguins. Went on to win another Cup with the Avs as an assistant coach. His career is full of milestones including 2 x 5 goal games and a 6 point period.

There has been enough Ovi talk in the thread.

Friedman and Marek had Trottier on their podcast for an interview recently and I really enjoyed listening to it. Lots of talk about that great Islander team who won 19 consecutive playoff series.

Think about that crazy stat.

Worth a listen if you get a chance. I was not an islander fan either but boy was that team special.