Around the NHL 10 - 2022/23

[WolfHouse]

Lmao Wow. if beating out mcdavid, sid or kane in goals over the years isn't considered good than what is?

And Bernie geoffrion, Jean Beliveau and gordie Howe are slouches?

 

[surixon]

biggest diff with the 80s is the goaltending in my eyes that someone who did not grow up in the 80s.

when the league average for the decade is in the low 870s and the shot-volume per game is not hugely different vs now, it's like facing worse than Rittich almost each night on average then some of the defense being played was absolutely brutal. idk i find 80s hockey unwatchable for the most part.

I like mid 90's hockey the best. Goalies were better, there was more structure but not the stifeling structure of the DPE. You had a tonne of fast and high skilled players that were not held back by systems. I found that hockey to be highly entertaining. I also found that era of star player to have far more individual creativity then the 2010 era player. I think in many ways the league is trending back that way with the kids entering the league these days.

 

[enuffidiotsalready]

don't care if i ever read another single word about Ovechkin ever again.
but welcome one and all to the ovie thread. yeesh

 

[ERYX]

I don't understand the belittling of Wheeler for empty net goals. Do people think it's funny or clever? Do posters bring it up to try and fit in around here? He never floats or cheats with the empty net available. Should he dump the puck in the corner instead? Or when his name is called just say no and stay on the bench?

I don’t get the Wheeler hate on this topic either, nor all the comments about EN goals generally. If a guy — be it Ovie or Wheels — scores on an empty net I’ll take that all day every day over the team with their goalie pulled scoring goals.

Consider those couple of games where we have up 3 EN goals allowing the other team to tie late. I would have been more than happy if Wheels scored an EN instead.

 

[voyageur]

biggest diff with the 80s is the goaltending in my eyes that someone who did not grow up in the 80s.

when the league average for the decade is in the low 870s and the shot-volume per game is not hugely different vs now, it's like facing worse than Rittich almost each night on average then some of the defense being played was absolutely brutal. idk i find 80s hockey unwatchable for the most part.

I hope some other posters chime in, but this is one I felt I had to respond to. I am definitely nostalgic for the 80s, I have my Texaco board of 21 pucks from the NHL teams of that era, a few of which saw the ice for some backyard shinny.

Goaltending in the 80s starts first and foremost with equipment. I still have my old Cooper horsehair leather pads, and I can tell you that today's goaltending would be impossible wearing those, they are heavy and cumbersome, and not ideal for moving around laterally. Then try an old Cooper's goalie glove, and you'll feel intimidated out there. I remember an MJHL kid almost breaking my hand with a clapper trying to stop it with that glove. There's also a dilution of talent in the net position with expansion from 6 to 21 teams in 12 years, which contributes to the high scoring rates of the 80s. Goalies were not particularly good athletes and goaltenders were often chosen by being the worst skater on the ice. Patrick Roy was the first goalie to break that trend towards athletic goalies. Also tall goalies who covered the top of the net in the butterfly position, which was a relatively new trend, again not one easy to achieve with old equipment, and still there were exceptions like Hasek or Irbe, who had their own European style. As the equipment got lighter and bigger it's not surprising that goaltending got better. It got carried away by the 90s when mediocre goalies like Garth Snow with oversized pads and equipment started becoming star goaltenders. The other thing is there was no such thing as goalie coaches. I'm not sure if Allaire was the 1st but it was a trend that started late. I know it was something that became a big thing at the youth level in Finland later on which brought an influx of Finnish goalies into the NHL.

On the equipment side 80s hockey with wooden sticks didn't see a lot of one timers. You simply couldn't flex on a wooden stick, but they were ideal for slapshots coming down the ice, which is how a lot of goals were scored. You look at PP producers in the 80s and they weren't necessarily shooters, but garbage goal scorers like Andreychuk, or Tim Kerr, or Luc Robitaille, net front presences. It wasn't until Brett Hull that one timers became a big thing in hockey.

In terms of skill level I think the 80s in the NHL were watered down a bit. There were no Russians until 1989, a few defectors from Czechoslovakia, and the talent influx came from Sweden and Finland. USA hockey didn't take off until the Miracle on Ice, and became more prominent towards the back half of the 80s and the 90s culminating with the World Cup win in 1996. Goon hockey took away from some skill. There were some good defensive teams in the 80s. Montreal and Boston were quite often below or around the 3.00 GAA mark, as they had some good defensive structure, and players on their teams, the likes of Jarvis/Gainey/Carbonneau, Kasper and Linseman, but the West was really firewagon hockey, and you play 32 games a year against your own division, which had no goaltending, it's good for the statlines. I think the 90s starting with Lemaire's Devils winning in 95, and then Nielsen's Panthers going to the Cup in 96, saw a downward trend in scoring that kept up until the lockout. I still remember watching Anaheim-Minnesota in the 2003 playoffs and that has to go down as the most boring hockey I have ever seen with teams just skating to centre to dump the puck in and change, and trap. Hoping for a PP.

What I remember most about the 80s is that Canada and Russia were the best, but they weren't in the same league so all those international competitions were extremely compettive, probably the most passionate hockey you'll ever see.

Comparing eras is so difficult. For me no question if you put a guy like Mc David head to head against Gretzky, Mc David would torch him, by virtue of his skating, and edgework. Skating today is so much better, I mean there were still players in the 70s and 80s who couldn't skate backwards. So it's a tough comparision. The league today is more talented than ever, there's a recognition that goaltending is the key to success too.
,

 

[Duke749]

So did guys like Lemieix and Gretzky. Ovie missing time due to work stoppages isn't something that just impacted him alone.

Oh for sure. Can only imagine what Lemieix would have put up.

 

[Duke749]

Yep but he can be thankful playing in the post lockout era, that he didn't have a stick around his waist every time he was trying to skate up the ice like Gretz, Mario, and Jagr. For Gretzky and Mario the style of play in the 80s and 90s shortened their careers. Gordie on the other hand was so tough and respected that no one played him tight at the end of his career. And if his WHA stats counted Ovie would have no chance of catching him.

Ovi is pretty big and stout. He’s been around 230 his whole career. He’s played hard his whole career and somehow avoided more injuries. But who knows how he’d fair. Doubt many goalies would have even the slightest chance at stopping his one timer but there’s also a major equipment difference.

 

[surixon]

Ovi is pretty big and stout. He’s been around 230 his whole career. He’s played hard his whole career and somehow avoided more injuries. But who knows how he’d fair. Doubt many goalies would have even the slightest chance at stopping his one timer but there’s also a major equipment difference.

Would he even be the same player if born in that era? That is why I have a hard time with all of these let's put McDavid etc. Back into the 80's type of discussions.

You put him into the 80's and he grows up with 80's equipment, coaching, nutrition, training etc... I'm sure he'd still be elite due to his natural talent but his game is likely different than it is now.

 

[snowkiddin]

He's definitely one of the greatest. I just put a Lemieux ahead. Had he been healthy and not missed 3 years due to cancer in his peak I don't think we are having a conversation about the goal record right now.

I wasn’t alive when he played, but I almost want to put Bossy up there as the greatest goal-scorer. He was insane, looking at highlights and at stats. Ovechkin is the greatest goal-scorer since I’ve been alive though.

Bossy scored “only” 573 goals, but his career was cut so short unfortunately. Still paced for 62 goals a season (over 82 games). Best season he had 69 in 80.

Of players with at least 700 NHL goals:

Wayne Gretzky: 894 goals, average 49 goals every 82 games, best season, 92 in 80.

Gordie Howe: 801 goals, average 37 goals a season, best season, 49 in 70. Howe never hit 50 but seasons were only 70 games long for the majority of his career.

Alexander Ovechkin: 800 goals, average 50 goals a season, best season 65 in 82.

Jaromir Jagr: 766 goals, average 36 goals a season (heavily dragged down by his post-KHL seasons). Best season 62 in 82.

Brett Hull: 741 goals, average 48 goals a season. Best season 86 in 78.

Marcel Dionne: 731 goals, average 44 goals a season. Best season 59 in 80.

Phil Esposito: 717 goals, average 46 goals a season. Best season 76 in 78.

Mike Gartner: 708 goals, average 41 goals a season. Best season 50 in 80.


Others:

Lemieux scored 690 goals, paced for 62 a season. Best season 85 in 76.

Selanne scored 684, pacing for 39 a season. Best season 76 in 84.

The Rocket scored 544 goals. Paced for 46 a season (per 82 games). He scored 50 in 50 in his best season, but seasons were shorter when he played.

And just for a fun, and completely different era, but Joe Malone scored 146 goals in 125 games from 1915 to 1923. That’s 96 goals per 82 games. He scored 44 in 20 one year. Obviously he can’t be compared to more modern players, but still cool to look at. One-Eye Frank McGee scored 71 goals in 23 games in the early 1900s in Stanley Cup Challenge series before the NHL was born. Pacing for 253 every 82 games. Looks like my NHL 23 Be a Pro stats

 

[ps241]

Crosby is having himself quite the season, he has passed Ovie on the All time scoring list this year, and if he keeps up his pace he will finish top 10 in All time scoring behind Mario. Ovechkin is going to be painful to watch for the next 3 years, I mean last year he was already hanging out at the opposing blue line for many of his shifts. The two line pass would have negated him in the 80s and 90s. But he's strong enough that he can get the record based on PP and EN goals if he keeps going. And the other components of Washington's PP stay healthy enough. With one more extra year on his contract than Crosby he may even end up finishing ahead of him in all time scoring.

NHL needs marketable players, and Ovie has been one of those. He's managed to put his friendship with Putin on the backburner of issues, while the Gretzky record becomes the primary focus. He's the best pure shooter in the NHL since Brett Hull, in my opinion.

What Ovi is truly elite at is generating shots and staying healthy. He has averaged 4.7 shots per game over an 18 year career which is off the charts. His shooting % is 12.9 which is good but not up there with the best. To put his shooting volume in context last season Auston Matthews was in total beast mode, had his career year to date, took a step up in his shot volumes, won the rocket, and even then a prime dominant Matthews was only able to match Ovi's 4.7 shots per game. That was AM's peak season vs what Ovi has averaged over his 18 seasons and counting. Absolutely incredible.

 

[Duke749]

Would he even be the same player if born in that era? That is why I have a hard time with all of these let's put McDavid etc. Back into the 80's type of discussions.

You put him into the 80's and he grows up with 80's equipment, coaching, nutrition, training etc... I'm sure he'd still be elite due to his natural talent but his game is likely different than it is now.

I mean Ovi has never really been known for being in great physical shape anyways. But yeh you’re totally right. All we can do is compare him to his peers.

 

[Jetfaninflorida]

I don't understand the belittling of Wheeler for empty net goals. Do people think it's funny or clever? Do posters bring it up to try and fit in around here? He never floats or cheats with the empty net available. Should he dump the puck in the corner instead? Or when his name is called just say no and stay on the bench?

I don't understand how on this board when someone points out a + about Wheeler, it gets interpreted as dissing Wheeler. It's almost like the responding person actually considers the positive thing to be a negative. So it ends up actually being a negative. Weird. It happened to me recently too when I was complimenting Wheeler on his season.

 

[JetsFan815]

I don’t get the Wheeler hate on this topic either, nor all the comments about EN goals generally. If a guy — be it Ovie or Wheels — scores on an empty net I’ll take that all day every day over the team with their goalie pulled scoring goals.

Consider those couple of games where we have up 3 EN goals allowing the other team to tie late. I would have been more than happy if Wheels scored an EN instead.

I don't understand how on this board when someone points out a + about Wheeler, it gets interpreted as dissing Wheeler. It's almost like the responding person actually considers the positive thing to be a negative. So it ends up actually being a negative. Weird. It happened to me recently too when I was complimenting Wheeler on his season.

Wheeler's EN points was certainly used as a dig against him here with people arguing that him being a PPG player was due to feasting on the EN situations. It started when Laine fans early in his career were salty that he wasn't getting those EN points and taking it out on Wheeler. I haven't checked lately but till before last season, Wheeler was one of the best players in the league in EN situations when it came to icing the game.

 

[macmaroon]

I wasn’t alive when he played, but I almost want to put Bossy up there as the greatest goal-scorer. He was insane, looking at highlights and at stats. Ovechkin is the greatest goal-scorer since I’ve been alive though.

Bossy scored “only” 573 goals, but his career was cut so short unfortunately. Still paced for 62 goals a season (over 82 games). Best season he had 69 in 80.

Of players with at least 700 NHL goals:

Wayne Gretzky: 894 goals, average 49 goals every 82 games, best season, 92 in 80.

Gordie Howe: 801 goals, average 37 goals a season, best season, 49 in 70. Howe never hit 50 but seasons were only 70 games long for the majority of his career.

Alexander Ovechkin: 800 goals, average 50 goals a season, best season 65 in 82.

Jaromir Jagr: 766 goals, average 36 goals a season (heavily dragged down by his post-KHL seasons). Best season 62 in 82.

Brett Hull: 741 goals, average 48 goals a season. Best season 86 in 78.

Marcel Dionne: 731 goals, average 44 goals a season. Best season 59 in 80.

Phil Esposito: 717 goals, average 46 goals a season. Best season 76 in 78.

Mike Gartner: 708 goals, average 41 goals a season. Best season 50 in 80.


Others:

Lemieux scored 690 goals, paced for 62 a season. Best season 85 in 76.

Selanne scored 684, pacing for 39 a season. Best season 76 in 84.

The Rocket scored 544 goals. Paced for 46 a season (per 82 games). He scored 50 in 50 in his best season, but seasons were shorter when he played.

And just for a fun, and completely different era, but Joe Malone scored 146 goals in 125 games from 1915 to 1923. That’s 96 goals per 82 games. He scored 44 in 20 one year. Obviously he can’t be compared to more modern players, but still cool to look at. One-Eye Frank McGee scored 71 goals in 23 games in the early 1900s in Stanley Cup Challenge series before the NHL was born. Pacing for 253 every 82 games. Looks like my NHL 23 Be a Pro stats

Thanks for posting this, it was very interesting...

 

[DRW204]

simply put: they have era-adjusted stats for everything. ive seen it for qbs in the nfl with more passing plays/proficiency, and of course nhl given the differences in times.

this from hockey-references formula

I don’t get the Wheeler hate on this topic either, nor all the comments about EN goals generally. If a guy — be it Ovie or Wheels — scores on an empty net I’ll take that all day every day over the team with their goalie pulled scoring goals.

Consider those couple of games where we have up 3 EN goals allowing the other team to tie late. I would have been more than happy if Wheels scored an EN instead.

i think the comparison should be made if you have 2 playes and trying to compare stats or scoring proficiency... ie: 2 80 pt players, one has 10 EN points the other has 5. perhaps that not big of a variance and really it's a small portion of the game. in the grand scheme of things it's what like 5-10 pts per year, is it really a big deal?

but what's worse is becoming the PP points. i know i used to use it as a dig on Laine often but at the end of the day, PP scoring is important. i think the Empty net thing eventually just became a running joke or satire esp. in game-day threads. ie: calling Wheeler the empty net god, or saying scheifele (or wheeler) only back checks hard when there's an empty net to score on etc.

what's even worse, and what i just laugh at when the usual cherry pickers on here commonly would shit on Wheeler for his PP points but it was ho hum or be ignorant and let it slide for other players on this team. that bias is exhausting.

 

[raideralex99]

biggest diff with the 80s is the goaltending in my eyes that someone who did not grow up in the 80s.

when the league average for the decade is in the low 870s and the shot-volume per game is not hugely different vs now, it's like facing worse than Rittich almost each night on average then some of the defense being played was absolutely brutal. idk i find 80s hockey unwatchable for the most part.

The biggest difference is goalie equipment ... its so much lighter and of course better protection.

 

[raideralex99]

Empty net Wheezer right up there!

Most Empty Net Points - NHL History
1. Wayne Gretzky - 85
2. Sidney Crosby - 68
3. Blake Wheeler - 67
4. Alex Ovechkin - 66
5. Marian Hossa - 60


1

It looks like they are laughing at Wheeler

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

He also played through one of the lowest scoring eras in league history. So any arguments that it's easier to score during any point in his career are just flat out wrong. Otherwise there would be a lineup of other players from his era pushing 800 goals and there isn't. There is one.

The dude is 37 years old and he is currently 4th in league scoring. That is a remarkable feat for a cherry picker.

Ovechkin is the greatest goal scorer this league has ever seen and soon there will be no arguments left when he passes Gretz for the title.

Ovechkin is a beast and would dominate in any era. Dude's a horse.

Yes, a beast, a horse and quite probably the greatest pure goal-scorer of all time. Not the greatest player though.

Pretty hard to argue with what he has done, like him or not. As you point out, he has done it during a time of relatively low scoring so there is no putting an asterisk beside his numbers.

 

[KingBogo]

Wheeler's EN points was certainly used as a dig against him here with people arguing that him being a PPG player was due to feasting on the EN situations. It started when Laine fans early in his career were salty that he wasn't getting those EN points and taking it out on Wheeler. I haven't checked lately but till before last season, Wheeler was one of the best players in the league in EN situations when it came to icing the game.

People so often lose sight that this is what is important.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Translated this means.

We want LA vs. Toronto final.

How in hell is Bettman going to get TML past the 1st rd?
Probably won't even try. Will settle for NYR vs LAK instead.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Empty net Wheezer right up there!

Most Empty Net Points - NHL History
1. Wayne Gretzky - 85
2. Sidney Crosby - 68
3. Blake Wheeler - 67
4. Alex Ovechkin - 66
5. Marian Hossa - 60


1

That's pretty impressive company Wheeler is keeping.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I wasn’t alive when he played, but I almost want to put Bossy up there as the greatest goal-scorer. He was insane, looking at highlights and at stats. Ovechkin is the greatest goal-scorer since I’ve been alive though.

Bossy scored “only” 573 goals, but his career was cut so short unfortunately. Still paced for 62 goals a season (over 82 games). Best season he had 69 in 80.

Of players with at least 700 NHL goals:

Wayne Gretzky: 894 goals, average 49 goals every 82 games, best season, 92 in 80.

Gordie Howe: 801 goals, average 37 goals a season, best season, 49 in 70. Howe never hit 50 but seasons were only 70 games long for the majority of his career.

Alexander Ovechkin: 800 goals, average 50 goals a season, best season 65 in 82.

Jaromir Jagr: 766 goals, average 36 goals a season (heavily dragged down by his post-KHL seasons). Best season 62 in 82.

Brett Hull: 741 goals, average 48 goals a season. Best season 86 in 78.

Marcel Dionne: 731 goals, average 44 goals a season. Best season 59 in 80.

Phil Esposito: 717 goals, average 46 goals a season. Best season 76 in 78.

Mike Gartner: 708 goals, average 41 goals a season. Best season 50 in 80.


Others:

Lemieux scored 690 goals, paced for 62 a season. Best season 85 in 76.

Selanne scored 684, pacing for 39 a season. Best season 76 in 84.

The Rocket scored 544 goals. Paced for 46 a season (per 82 games). He scored 50 in 50 in his best season, but seasons were shorter when he played.

And just for a fun, and completely different era, but Joe Malone scored 146 goals in 125 games from 1915 to 1923. That’s 96 goals per 82 games. He scored 44 in 20 one year. Obviously he can’t be compared to more modern players, but still cool to look at. One-Eye Frank McGee scored 71 goals in 23 games in the early 1900s in Stanley Cup Challenge series before the NHL was born. Pacing for 253 every 82 games. Looks like my NHL 23 Be a Pro stats

Ovi has not averaged 50 G per season.
800 G, 18 seasons = 44.4 G per season.
He has averaged 50 G per 82 games. Not quite the same thing.

 

[robertocarlos]

It's just a bit of fun mixed with some disappointment but I'd be happy if he scored 164 EN goals a year.

 

[tbcwpg]

Ovi has not averaged 50 G per season.
800 G, 18 seasons = 44.4 G per season.
He has averaged 50 G per 82 games. Not quite the same thing.

Well the 800 goals only includes regular season totals, and given he's played less than 18 full seasons (and we're in the 18th season now so its not even finished yet) I'd say that's even more impressive than what you're trying to paint it as, given a season is 82 games anyway.

 

[kanadalainen]

What Ovi is truly elite at is generating shots and staying healthy.