Are things as bad as we're saying?

[hoglund]

In today's Sun Simmons column says that the Leafs have only won 34 of their last 70 games and that's not a small sample size,what he forgot to mention was that only 7 players from last year's roster returned. The core players returned, but most didn't, so of those 70 games, it's really 13 games, which IS a small sample size. Babcock has only won 34 of 70 games, but with a different roster.

 

[ShaneFalco]

In today's Sun Simmons column says that the Leafs have only won 34 of their last 70 games and that's not a small sample size,what he forgot to mention was that only 7 players from last year's roster returned. The core players returned, but most didn't, so of those 70 games, it's really 13 games, which IS a small sample size. Babcock has only won 34 of 70 games, but with a different roster.

Any way you slice it, the team should be better. Quite a bit better

 

[Advanced stats]

Andersen has never won a playoff series.

Patrick Lalime looked pretty good for Ottawa years ago, but he could never really win for them when push came to shove. His career save % .926.

When I speak to Advanced Stats people I feel like I am talking to player agents who just paint pretty pictures of their clients.

I'm just giving stats and facts. You say Andersen has been bad in the playoffs when clearly the basic numbers say otherwise.

Is it Andersen that has never won a playoff series? Or the team and other 18 players.

 

[18leafsfan18]

In today's Sun Simmons column says that the Leafs have only won 34 of their last 70 games and that's not a small sample size,what he forgot to mention was that only 7 players from last year's roster returned. The core players returned, but most didn't, so of those 70 games, it's really 13 games, which IS a small sample size. Babcock has only won 34 of 70 games, but with a different roster.

Any way you slice it, the team should be better. Quite a bit better

Simmonds is a clown.

I agree though, anyway you slice it they need to be way better.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I'm just giving stats and facts. You say Andersen has been bad in the playoffs when clearly the basic numbers say otherwise.

Is it Andersen that has never won a playoff series? Or the team and other 18 players.

 

[Madap]

I'm just giving stats and facts. You say Andersen has been bad in the playoffs when clearly the basic numbers say otherwise.

Is it Andersen that has never won a playoff series? Or the team and other 18 players.

Sometimes basic numbers don't paint the whole picture. Andersen is good in some games and bad in others, and obviously that averages out. But he's extremely inconsistent come playoff time, and he loses when it counts. That's not the sign of a good or reliable goalie.

It really messes up the whole team when they have to worry about if their goalie is going to let in extremely easy goals on any given night.

 

[Lauro]

Very good article on the Athletic by Mirtle today about the ridiculous Babcock bashing. But I guess people will find other 'issues' to push their agenda forward ...

 

[ottomaddox]

I'm just giving stats and facts. You say Andersen has been bad in the playoffs when clearly the basic numbers say otherwise.

Is it Andersen that has never won a playoff series? Or the team and other 18 players.

You're making stuff up now. I never said that.

I too am giving facts. He might look good with underlying numbers, but he has elimation game meltdowns.

Yes. There's a lot of players on this current team that don't seem to show up in elimination games.

 

[paulhiggins]

In today's Sun Simmons column says that the Leafs have only won 34 of their last 70 games and that's not a small sample size,what he forgot to mention was that only 7 players from last year's roster returned. The core players returned, but most didn't, so of those 70 games, it's really 13 games, which IS a small sample size. Babcock has only won 34 of 70 games, but with a different roster.

I count more than 7 returnees.

2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com
2019-20 Toronto Maple Leafs Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

This team lacks intangibles. No, I’m not exclusively talking about toughness. What I mean is this team hasn’t got any swagger, guts, experienced leadership. They’re supposed to be contenders but when was the last time you went into a game expecting them to win with no trouble, be able to mount a comeback, or hold on to a lead?

Truly elite and contending teams in any sport don’t have as much doubt when they go into games. We do, and really this team hasn’t given us a reason to believe they will or can win any game. There’s plenty of NHL examples like Boston, Tampa, Washington, Vegas, but we can just look at the past half decade of sports in our own city to see the difference. The Raptors over the last few years, the latter half of 2015 and the 2016 Jays, and 2017 TFC, they went into every game feeling like they could win. Leafs don’t have that feeling. There’s too much anxiety surrounding this team, like they’re scared to make a mistake. And the Leafs don’t have any less overall talent than those teams or the best NHL teams have, but they sure don’t play like they’re capable of.

They also lack guts in that they don’t show any pushback when teams try to bully us, and the team rarely responds when one of our players is targeted. Would any Leaf stand up to Chara like VanVleet did to Durant? Would any Leaf rush to the rescue of Tavares like Pillar and the rest of the Jays did when Bautista was suckered by Odor? Could the Leafs walk into a hostile environment with high stakes and come away with a winning result like TFC when they went into Mexico during the CCL (based on two Game 7’s in Boston, no)? The Leafs don’t need to play rock ‘em sock ‘em hockey, but they need to play with some emotion and backbone.

And finally, leadership. Babcock is the coach but it seems everyone is over his act and are tuning him out. Tavares wears the ‘C’ and we clearly miss him, but your captain going down shouldn’t mean that you’re doomed to lose every other game. Matthews and Marner wear an ‘A’ but both have been extremely disappointing over this stretch. Rielly to an extent as well but it seems he’s been battling an injury. Boston had a ton of injuries in 2017-18, they still chugged along to 50 wins. So did Tampa and 16-17 and they very nearly knocked us out of the playoffs in the final week. Yeah the schedule has sucked and the backup isn’t great but not every back to back is an automatic loss, hell Hutch hasn’t even been the main culprit the last couple of games he’s played. Can this team not rally together? Are they just not as tight-knit as we thought?

I think, begrudgingly, the biggest culprit for why we aren’t as consistent as we could be is lack of experience. All of the teams I’ve mentioned in this ludicrously long post, both the NHL teams and the other major Toronto sports teams, have or had strong veteran cores in their primes and were great players in their own right who’ve been there and done that. We’ve got Tavares who’s elite but hasn’t been past the second round. Neither has Barrie. Ceci went to a Conference Final but he isn’t all that talented and I don’t think he’d be looked to as a leader. Spezza is well past his prime and isn’t a leader on this team. Muzzin is the only vet who’s been all the way and he has played damn well over this stretch, go figure.

Other contending teams have good young players but they’re surrounded by great vets as well. Yeah Boston has McAvoy and Pastrnak, but they also have Bergeron, Marchand, Chara, Krejci. Sure Tampa has Kucherov, Sergachev, and Point, but they’ve also got Stamkos, Hedman, McDonagh. It took years of failure before Washington got over the hump and their core matured. Same with St. Louis. Cross-sports comparison yields that yeah Siakam and VanVleet emerged as stars but they had Lowry, Leonard, Gasol, and Ibaka to lead the way. Stroman and Osuna (side-note, screw that guy) were great for the contending Jays but those teams were lead by vets like Bautista, Encarnacion, Pillar, Martin, and Donaldson. Bradley and Altidore have led TFC for the past few years along with guys like Moor and Morrow, and they’ve gone far in the playoffs 3 out of 4 years now.

It’s not impossible for relatively young teams to get the job done though. Pittsburgh did it, as did Chicago. But maybe these Leafs are more like Washington and St. Louis than they are Pittsburgh and Chicago. Either way I think everyone involved with the team is too in their own heads.

 

[Mess]

Last 3 seasons

2017-18 .. after 13 games .. 8-5-0 = 16 points
2018-19 .. after 13 games .. 8-5-0 = 16 points
vs
2019-20 .. after 12 games .. 6-4-2 = 14 points

So with a win tonight against Washington the Leafs will be in the same earned points after 13 games in all 3 of the last season to start the year.

 

[JayfromNB1219]

The guy I quoted made no reference at all to our total points so that isn't true.

All I was saying is that the poster I quoted (and many others) have been trying to spin even our good stats and games to look bad which is why I don't think we are as bad as a lot of posters are making us out to be.

We need to be better, but we aren't as bad as some think.

I can agree with that statement

 

[meefer]

Any way you slice it, the team should be better. Quite a bit better

Quite correct, and should we allow the team, as hoped and not been yet assembled, a chance to prove its worth?

 

[Zybalto]

I'm just giving stats and facts. You say Andersen has been bad in the playoffs when clearly the basic numbers say otherwise.

Is it Andersen that has never won a playoff series? Or the team and other 18 players.

In the first Boston series he was bad. Thats the stats and facts.

.896 save %, -0.56 GAA/60, 3.76 GA, 2.85 expected GA

He was bad and he was bad in game 7. Rask wasnt much better but he was better and Rask was better in game 7.

He was good last time out but up against a all world Rask who was maybe the best keeper in the playoffs overall.

Doesnt change the fact that he was 2nd best in the round again......and he had a poor game 7.

So Andersen has been the 2nd best keeper and has been abysmal in game 7s so far.....

I wouldnt try to ride this horse any further.

Edit: and what I mean is not to push that he's somehow been amazing in the playoffs overall. He just hasnt. I still like him for this year though but my patience is wearing thin.

 

[meefer]

To those who keep referencing this team as being the team in January/19, it's not. Full stop. The results from a small sample size may be similar, but it is, unarguably, a different group of players - you know, the people who make up a team - who are being criticized. Fair enough. But is it really so hard to acknowledge that the roster of Oct/19 is substantially different than the roster of 01/19? And that the turnover rate might require a bit more time to jell vs a 3/4 player turnover? Yes, efforts need to be improved, but this is not the same TEAM that started the calendar year.

 

[Mess]

If the playoffs started today the Leafs would be in WC #2 position clinging to last playoff spot in the East and that is only the case because they've player 2-3 more games than the 3 teams that sit 2 points back with games in hand.

https://www.espn.com/nhl/standings/_/view/wild-card

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Last 3 seasons

2017-18 .. after 13 games .. 8-5-0 = 16 points
2018-19 .. after 13 games .. 8-5-0 = 16 points
vs
2019-20 .. after 12 games .. 6-4-2 = 14 points

So with a win tonight against Washington the Leafs will be in the same earned points after 13 games in all 3 of the last season to start the year.

The leafs have played 13 games and they're 6-5-2

 

[Pookie]

I’m not really worried about making the playoffs. We have enough skill to get enough points.

Totally worried about the post season. Nothing about this team says grit.

Fortunately there’s a trade deadline. Unfortunately, the man at the helm doesn’t buy into physicality.

 

[hoglund]

I count more than 7 returnees.

2018-19 Toronto Maple Leafs Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com
2019-20 Toronto Maple Leafs Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com

I'm going by what TSN said in September, how many do you count? 8 0r 9?

 

[SprDaVE]

Once the Leafs gets league average goaltending, they will likely start racking up wins.

With that said, I hope it's not too late for them to get going.

 

[KuleminFan41]

Andersen has never won a playoff series.

Patrick Lalime looked pretty good for Ottawa years ago, but he could never really win for them when push came to shove. His career save % .926.

When I speak to Advanced Stats people I feel like I am talking to player agents who just paint pretty pictures of their clients.

It took Dominik Hasek 5 tries before helping the Sabres win a playoff series. It took Mike Richter 4 tries to win a playoff series etc etc . Some times, it takes teams(not just goalies) a couple tries to win a playoff series , let alone a cup.

Patrick Lalime wasn't the biggest reason for Ottawa failing to get past round 1(except for game 7 in 04), the Leafs were just a better team. If you look back, Ottawa lost their fair share of 1 goal games and games they just couldn't score. Could he have done better? I mean,sure maybe? But it would be pretty harsh to blame everything on him like some do. Look at it this way, in 2001 Lalime had a save % .914 and got swept by the Leafs, Hasek in 02 had a .915 and won the cup. You can't win if your team doesn't score and no amount of good goaltending will save you

 

[Loosie]

Last 3 seasons

2017-18 .. after 13 games .. 8-5-0 = 16 points
2018-19 .. after 13 games .. 8-5-0 = 16 points
vs
2019-20 .. after 12 games .. 6-4-2 = 14 points

So with a win tonight against Washington the Leafs will be in the same earned points after 13 games in all 3 of the last season to start the year.

If the playoffs started today the Leafs would be in WC #2 position clinging to last playoff spot in the East and that is only the case because they've player 2-3 more games than the 3 teams that sit 2 points back with games in hand.

https://www.espn.com/nhl/standings/_/view/wild-card

So which is it...we have the same start as the previous two season and end up 3rd behind Boston, or is the world crumbling?

 

[ottomaddox]

It took Dominik Hasek 5 tries before helping the Sabres win a playoff series. It took Mike Richter 4 tries to win a playoff series etc etc . Some times, it takes teams(not just goalies) a couple tries to win a playoff series , let alone a cup.

Patrick Lalime wasn't the biggest reason for Ottawa failing to get past round 1(except for game 7 in 04), the Leafs were just a better team. If you look back, Ottawa lost their fair share of 1 goal games and games they just couldn't score. Could he have done better? I mean,sure maybe? But it would be pretty harsh to blame everything on him like some do. Look at it this way, in 2001 Lalime had a save % .914 and got swept by the Leafs, Hasek in 02 had a .915 and won the cup. You can't win if your team doesn't score and no amount of good goaltending will save you

I never said Lalime was the biggest reason Ottawa lost. I never said that Andersen is our only problem.

I do however take exception when someone tells me that Andersen is good ("hey look his .917 SV % proves it") in the playoffs. Yes he had some good games, but clearly he has fallen in elimination games. It's not all on him, but sooner or later TOR needs a save. Sooner or later he will have to stand taller than the other goalie. The reason I use Lalime as an example is because his career playoff save percentage makes him look a lot better than he was. In elimination games Lalime was known to meltdown.

 

[Loosie]

I'm going by what TSN said in September, how many do you count? 8 0r 9?

I believe TSN was referencing the difference between opening night rosters. Which means you don't count Muzzin, Hutcinson, Moore, and possibly Nylander, Gauthier and Marincin

 

[KuleminFan41]

I never said Lalime was the biggest reason Ottawa lost. I never said that Andersen is our only problem.

I do however take exception when someone tells me that Andersen is good ("hey look his .917 SV % proves it") in the playoffs. Yes he had some good games, but clearly he has fallen in elimination games. It's not all on him, but sooner or later TOR needs a save. Sooner or later he will have to stand taller than the other goalie. The reason I use Lalime as an example is because his career playoff save percentage makes him look a lot better than he was. In elimination games Lalime was known to meltdown.

You literally stated "he could never really win for them when push came to shove" . That's literally putting the blame squarely on Lalime's shoulders.

Anderson has been good, but not great. You can't fault Andersen for the Leafs being outshot. He faced a ton of shots against the Bruins , 41 , 40, 30, and 30 shots faced in last years playoffs, and those were the losses. Trying to suggest he can't save them, is kind of ridiculous when the defense is having issues preventing shots getting through to Andersen