Analyzing Dubas's Performance - III

[saffronleaf]

Can't believe we let Par Lindholm slip away lol

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

I can't believe Teflon Dubas is escaping criticism for trading Borgman away for some no name player. Just another disgusting display of horrible management

 

[EGL22]

Dubas should be fired for the Kadri trade alone never mind everything else.

I hope Colorado wins the cup and when Kadri brings it home to Toronto and after he drives up and down Yonge st. his last stop he sits at the bottom of Dubas's driveway and sips bubbly out of it for an hour and with a sign on the car that says,
What could have been Kyle but you blew it.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Dubas doesn’t have it in him to make the changes that need to happen. Kind of thinking he isto adv stats oriented to see the problem.

Goaltending is good. Defense needs improvement. Forwards are our currency. The playoff type players at forward are missing. I mean nasty,net jamming presence and goal scoring. Its missing from the chemistry.

I have always backed and continue to give Dubas the pass to do some further work. Never liked the Kadri trade and it’s clear it was terrible now.

He should not be scared to pull the trigger on any forward not named Tavares and Matthews. I like Marner and Nylander equally but trading both for the right deals wouldn’t bother me. Marner has no shot and is soft and didn’t work as hard after the contract.Nylander is soft and doesn’t work because he isn’t exactly the jam we need for building a playoff long term contender.

Kerfoot,Johnsson,Kappy, Marner and Nylander should build the team goalie out sufficiently. Seen these guys do just not enough long enough personally. If the defense improves enough in them trades add Dermott,Liljegren to the available. Why waste having 2 top line centers any longer i figure.

4 years of first round losses starts looking like a losing combination at this point. They actually have lost intensity through these first round kneelings.

edit: not trying to be attention grabbing here leafers. The team needs change and cap space moving forward here. Jumping on it quick before the draft,during the draft and right after and UFA signings before everyone is all capped out would be great.

This team couldn’t score the way they needed to against thetrap,structured team.

 

[Dekes For Days]

This is a Dubas discussion, so we're just sitting around talking about Dubas moves.

Except it's not just sitting around talking Dubas moves. You tried to frame those moves as him doing something wrong. You called it "poor asset management", and you haven't really provided any reasoning for that.

At best, it's a nothing, at worst, it's adding to a useless collection of tweener forwards who can't play while ignoring other positions.

It's not "at best, nothing". It's "at worst, nothing". What left was older forwards who can't play and didn't help us. What we got back was an improvement, which is a good thing, even if they aren't the solution to all of our problems. Whatever he did or didn't do in other moves has absolutely nothing to do with these moves.

The point about Marincin being used as a 7th defenseman isn't a comment about Marincin himself but moreso the fact that he's been floundering in his role for 2015-16 but because management hasn't really made very many moves to shore up the defensive depth of the team, we had to use him.

There's nothing wrong with Marincin as a #7-8 defenseman. That's the type of quality most teams have in that slot. Our defensive depth now is the best it has been under this core.

Typically playoff teams will go and grab defensive depth at the deadline.

And you think that if he spent assets on negligible defensive upgrades on the #7/#8 slot in case of injury in the playoffs, you wouldn't be here complaining about how he's wasted assets? You just identified backup goaltending as an important upgrade you wanted to see, yet two days ago you called the value of trading mid-round picks to fix that position as well as add toughness "dreadful value". Seems like Dubas can't win.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Petan is 25-26 year old AHL player...

Petan was a 23 year old with more NHL games than Lindholm.

 

[makbeer]

Don’t forget Tavares switched teams which is a contributing factor.

true...He is a good player but doesn’t have the foot speed for where the game is going.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Except it's not just sitting around talking Dubas moves. You tried to frame those moves as him doing something wrong. You called it "poor asset management", and you haven't really provided any reasoning for that.

It's not "at best, nothing". It's "at worst, nothing". What left was older forwards who can't play and didn't help us. What we got back was an improvement, which is a good thing, even if they aren't the solution to all of our problems. Whatever he did or didn't do in other moves has absolutely nothing to do with these moves.

There's nothing wrong with Marincin as a #7-8 defenseman. That's the type of quality most teams have in that slot. Our defensive depth now is the best it has been under this core.

And you think that if he spent assets on negligible defensive upgrades on the #7/#8 slot in case of injury in the playoffs, you wouldn't be here complaining about how he's wasted assets? You just identified backup goaltending as an important upgrade you wanted to see, yet two days ago you called the value of trading mid-round picks to fix that position as well as add toughness "dreadful value". Seems like Dubas can't win.

It's hard to take you seriously when you don't think Dubas hasn done even one thing as GM that's worthy of criticism and no matter what subject, you spin things in his favour.

I'll throw my hat in with the majority and say he's far from perfect.

 

[Trapper]

It's hard to take you seriously when you don't think Dubas hasn't done even one thing as GM that's worthy of criticism and no matter what subject, you spin things in his favour.

I'll throw my hat in with the majority and say he's far from perfect.

It’s hard as fans of the team to remain objective at times. Go back in history when Burke could do no wrong, now he’s public enemy. After multiple years with Kessel, people were told the team just wasn’t good enough. Not defensive enough, not hard enough to play against. Many don’t want to hear it. It’s exactly where we are today.

That being said, if one is trying to remain objective, here is where we are:

Pros:
1. Dubas did sign all the RFAs. Now some (including myself) aren’t ecstatic about some of the dollars/term, but he does have the valuable assets signed.
2. Drafting. I do like his drafting. He does seem to have a talent for that and I’d rather see him as the head scout vs. GM
3. Muzzin. I did like the trade. We desperately need more Muzzin/Hyman on this team.
4. A respectable person. Seems like a good boss, this sometimes could Go pros and cons because team is greater than feelings at times but I’ll leave it in the pros.

Cons:
1. Team building philosophy. Some may put it in the pros, I hate it. This may not be a con, but for me it is. One forward should have been moved and enough of the same types of projects. We need players like Debrusk/Gallagher/Hyman/Brown/Muzzin(plural) etc. Way to easy team.
2. Kadri trade. Good intentions, horrible results. Again, no permanent solution and Barrie fits into the player category we have way to much of.
3. Goaltending. Sat on his hands way to long. Instead of losing in 5 for a play-in, we might have been one of the top 2 teams playing for position instead. Fail.

When he was hired, I kept an open mind and let him prove things. If Hunter was our GM and this was our state, I be none to impressed with him. I don’t believe in this philosophy, I believe in skill but you need bite, strong D, forechecking and skill. We are missing far to much to be successful in my opinion and baring some major showing this season, the Dubas experiment can end.

 

[DarkKnight]

It’s hard as fans of the team to remain objective at times. Go back in history when Burke could do no wrong, now he’s public enemy. After multiple years with Kessel, people were told the team just wasn’t good enough. Not defensive enough, not hard enough to play against. Many don’t want to hear it. It’s exactly where we are today.

That being said, if one is trying to remain objective, here is where we are:

Pros:
1. Dubas did sign all the RFAs. Now some (including myself) aren’t ecstatic about some of the dollars/term, but he does have the valuable assets signed.
2. Drafting. I do like his drafting. He does seem to have a talent for that and I’d rather see him as the head scout vs. GM
3. Muzzin. I did like the trade. We desperately need more Muzzin/Hyman on this team.
4. A respectable person. Seems like a good boss, this sometimes could Go pros and cons because team is greater than feelings at times but I’ll leave it in the pros.

Cons:
1. Team building philosophy. Some may put it in the pros, I hate it. This may not be a con, but for me it is. One forward should have been moved and enough of the same types of projects. We need players like Debrusk/Gallagher/Hyman/Brown/Muzzin(plural) etc. Way to easy team.
2. Kadri trade. Good intentions, horrible results. Again, no permanent solution and Barrie fits into the player category we have way to much of.
3. Goaltending. Sat on his hands way to long. Instead of losing in 5 for a play-in, we might have been one of the top 2 teams playing for position instead. Fail.

When he was hired, I kept an open mind and let him prove things. If Hunter was our GM and this was our state, I be none to impressed with him. I don’t believe in this philosophy, I believe in skill but you need bite, strong D, forechecking and skill. We are missing far to much to be successful in my opinion and baring some major showing this season, the Dubas experiment can end.

I do give him credit for the draft so far, now if only we could keep our picks moving forward. He’s made some great selections.

 

[Gallagbi]

Yes, but you can’t sign him in the playoffs in the event of injury or suspension. Most GM’s understand you’re going to use more than 12 forwards if you go anywhere in the playoffs. Petan is 25-26 year old AHL player... is that really an asset?

If you’re packing for a potentially long road trip, would you trade your spare tire for a lawn ornament?

Because you had other depth options ahead of him, which is why I mentioned he wasn't the 13th forward either. You also had a number of good Marlie options if needed.

And yes, Petan is more of an asset than nothing, whether you like him or not.

 

[Gary Nylund]

It’s hard as fans of the team to remain objective at times. Go back in history when Burke could do no wrong, now he’s public enemy. After multiple years with Kessel, people were told the team just wasn’t good enough. Not defensive enough, not hard enough to play against. Many don’t want to hear it. It’s exactly where we are today.

That being said, if one is trying to remain objective, here is where we are:

Pros:
1. Dubas did sign all the RFAs. Now some (including myself) aren’t ecstatic about some of the dollars/term, but he does have the valuable assets signed.
2. Drafting. I do like his drafting. He does seem to have a talent for that and I’d rather see him as the head scout vs. GM
3. Muzzin. I did like the trade. We desperately need more Muzzin/Hyman on this team.
4. A respectable person. Seems like a good boss, this sometimes could Go pros and cons because team is greater than feelings at times but I’ll leave it in the pros.

Cons:
1. Team building philosophy. Some may put it in the pros, I hate it. This may not be a con, but for me it is. One forward should have been moved and enough of the same types of projects. We need players like Debrusk/Gallagher/Hyman/Brown/Muzzin(plural) etc. Way to easy team.
2. Kadri trade. Good intentions, horrible results. Again, no permanent solution and Barrie fits into the player category we have way to much of.
3. Goaltending. Sat on his hands way to long. Instead of losing in 5 for a play-in, we might have been one of the top 2 teams playing for position instead. Fail.

When he was hired, I kept an open mind and let him prove things. If Hunter was our GM and this was our state, I be none to impressed with him. I don’t believe in this philosophy, I believe in skill but you need bite, strong D, forechecking and skill. We are missing far to much to be successful in my opinion and baring some major showing this season, the Dubas experiment can end.

IMO:

It's hard to give him credit for signing the RFA's when he paid them as much as he did. It's not like when Kadri and Rielly were signed and everyone was happy because the price was more than fair, he threw so much money at them that it would have been shocking if they didn't sign.

Drafting - not sure about this, doesn't he just do what the scouts suggest doing?

Muzzin - love that deal.

Respectable person - yes and no. I think it's possible he's too in love with his player and needs to be less friend and more boss.

Philosophy - too early to call if a complete failure. He's on thin ice though, we'll see. I'm definitely skeptical though.

Kadri trade - agreed.

Goaltending - agreed. With all the injuries I don't think a playin series was avoidable though anyway.

Conclusion - agree that giving him one more season seems logical, emphasis on one.

 

[egd27]

Seems like Dubas can't win.

It certainly does seem like that so far.

 

[ACC1224]

It certainly does seem like that so far.

It's not his fault.

 

[4thline]

Respectable person - yes and no. I think it's possible he's too in love with his player and needs to be less friend and more boss.

Philosophy - too early to call if a complete failure. He's on thin ice though, we'll see. I'm definitely skeptical though.

On these two points- I do worry that he's too attached to "his" guys, which I would lump into two pools, the core and the ex-Marlies (Kap/AJ/Holl). I think that between this season's result and the flat cap this off-season he will have to choose between those groups (at forward). Both cannot be kept intact and do what needs to be done.

Philosophy-
Cap structure- too much is made of the top heaviness. This season we had the cap space to ice an expensive third line AND our D spending was in line all top 16 regular season teams outside of Carolina/St.Louis/Philly IIRC. If he's willing to move on from the ex-Marlies group there is room to re-tool both the D and bottom 6.

Playstyle/passion-
Player acquisition- I think this had more to do with cap constraints and acquisition cost rather than any true preference. This is a guy that sought after Clifford for a full year, loved the likes of David Broll, Dan Winnik, used his OHL 1st rounder on Darnell Nurse, had gritty marlies teams, etc. Rome was not built in a day, and while the core is certainly the nexus of this team moving forward I don't think the overall roster is complete.

Passion- I fully expect to amp up post Babcock. With Keefe at the helm in place of him I expect more fire from this group. It's like people completely forgot Babcock's tenure with the wings once Dubas got hired. His version of "grit" and this board's were not the same thing. Look at the Redwings fight and pim totals. Then look at Keefe as a player (especially in the O and A). We're going to play a skill based game, but the Matthews we saw these playoffs is only going to get louder, and it's going to rub off

 

[weems]

IMO:

It's hard to give him credit for signing the RFA's when he paid them as much as he did. It's not like when Kadri and Rielly were signed and everyone was happy because the price was more than fair, he threw so much money at them that it would have been shocking if they didn't sign.

Drafting - not sure about this, doesn't he just do what the scouts suggest doing?

Muzzin - love that deal.

Respectable person - yes and no. I think it's possible he's too in love with his player and needs to be less friend and more boss.

Philosophy - too early to call if a complete failure. He's on thin ice though, we'll see. I'm definitely skeptical though.

Kadri trade - agreed.

Goaltending - agreed. With all the injuries I don't think a playin series was avoidable though anyway.

Conclusion - agree that giving him one more season seems logical, emphasis on one.

In theory yes but shouldnt a general manager get some credit for putting together a good scouting staff?

I understand that if scout X says to draft a certain player then its not really Dubas's doing but he's also the one whose employing said scout that's scooping winners.

 

[ToneDog]

IMO:

It's hard to give him credit for signing the RFA's when he paid them as much as he did. It's not like when Kadri and Rielly were signed and everyone was happy because the price was more than fair, he threw so much money at them that it would have been shocking if they didn't sign.

Drafting - not sure about this, doesn't he just do what the scouts suggest doing?

Muzzin - love that deal.

Respectable person - yes and no. I think it's possible he's too in love with his player and needs to be less friend and more boss.

Philosophy - too early to call if a complete failure. He's on thin ice though, we'll see. I'm definitely skeptical though.

Kadri trade - agreed.

Goaltending - agreed. With all the injuries I don't think a playin series was avoidable though anyway.

Conclusion - agree that giving him one more season seems logical, emphasis on one.

Pretty much guaranteed Dubas has one year to prove himself. IMO he has dug himself too big a hole to go past the first round next year in which case he, Shanny and Keefe should be shown the door.

 

[Gary Nylund]

In theory yes but shouldnt a general manager get some credit for putting together a good scouting staff?

I understand that if scout X says to draft a certain player then its not really Dubas's doing but he's also the one whose employing said scout that's scooping winners.

In theory, sure I guess so. I honestly don't know much about our scouting staff, how much of it was in place before Dubas or how much he was involved in this area when he was assistant GM so take my laymans opinion FWIW which is probably not much TBH. His tenure hasn't been that long either so it's probably too early to judge how good our scouting has been under him.

 

[Gary Nylund]

On these two points- I do worry that he's too attached to "his" guys, which I would lump into two pools, the core and the ex-Marlies (Kap/AJ/Holl). I think that between this season's result and the flat cap this off-season he will have to choose between those groups (at forward). Both cannot be kept intact and do what needs to be done.

Philosophy-
Cap structure- too much is made of the top heaviness. This season we had the cap space to ice an expensive third line AND our D spending was in line all top 16 regular season teams outside of Carolina/St.Louis/Philly IIRC. If he's willing to move on from the ex-Marlies group there is room to re-tool both the D and bottom 6.

Playstyle/passion-
Player acquisition- I think this had more to do with cap constraints and acquisition cost rather than any true preference. This is a guy that sought after Clifford for a full year, loved the likes of David Broll, Dan Winnik, used his OHL 1st rounder on Darnell Nurse, had gritty marlies teams, etc. Rome was not built in a day, and while the core is certainly the nexus of this team moving forward I don't think the overall roster is complete.

Passion- I fully expect to amp up post Babcock. With Keefe at the helm in place of him I expect more fire from this group. It's like people completely forgot Babcock's tenure with the wings once Dubas got hired. His version of "grit" and this board's were not the same thing. Look at the Redwings fight and pim totals. Then look at Keefe as a player (especially in the O and A). We're going to play a skill based game, but the Matthews we saw these playoffs is only going to get louder, and it's going to rub off

I like your optimism!

I agree in that I've never agreed with the stereotype image that Dubas only likes skill etc. I get where it comes from as some of the things he's said seem to suggest this but Muzzin and Clifford don't fit that stereotype and actions speak louder than words. I really hope you're right about Matthews rubbing off etc., IMO we need that so badly.

The overall roster might not be complete but it's also hard to make changes being up against a flat cap, we'll see.

 

[weems]

In theory, sure I guess so. I honestly don't know much about our scouting staff, how much of it was in place before Dubas or how much he was involved in this area when he was assistant GM so take my laymans opinion FWIW which is probably not much TBH. His tenure hasn't been that long either so it's probably too early to judge how good our scouting has been under him.

I get that but if we were busting on picks and looking very poor in this area, everyone would be saying "Dubas cant draft" when in reality like you say, its usually just the scouts who are telling the GM which prospects to select.

It's one of those things that they get the praise or criticism regardless of how much say they have in it.

Agreed its very early to say but I think being encouraged is a fair assessment.

 

[Bluelines]

His acquisition of guys like Petan and Malgin suggests he doesn't understand how icetime distribution works. Even if they were the next Marchessault, Parenteau or Desharnais, (why are they always Quebecois?) they wouldn't receive the opportunity to demonstrate it in a scoring role with how top-heavy we are.

I think it suggest that he takes the trades avail to him. He's more of a tinkering guy than a swing for the fences guy (Burke)

 

[4thline]

I like your optimism!

I agree in that I've never agreed with the stereotype image that Dubas only likes skill etc. I get where it comes from as some of the things he's said seem to suggest this but Muzzin and Clifford don't fit that stereotype and actions speak louder than words. I really hope you're right about Matthews rubbing off etc., IMO we need that so badly.

The overall roster might not be complete but it's also hard to make changes being up against a flat cap, we'll see.

I the difficulty is over-stated if he's willing to budge, even more if he's willing to be a bit of a "bad guy" and squeeze the likes of Dermott/Mikheyev, perhaps tell Lehtonen to stay home or be 7th d.

 

[Mess]

It certainly does seem like that so far.

LOL

The proof is in the pudding really.

If you inherit a playoff caliber team that puts up > 100 points (albeit in the NHL's weakest Div), with a talented young core that includes a franchise #1C in Matthews that is trying to move past round #1 and your moves, signings and trades cause the team to decline there is going to be disappointment in those results.

If the object and goal when taking over from past management is to advance beyond round #1 and eventually hoist the Cup, and you fail to even qualify for round #1, then the obvious GM performance review is criticism and not praise even if you might like some of the individual moves if they don't move the overall ball forward.

No use dwelling on winning a few battles here and there if you ultimately keep losing the war.

 

[Northernguy10]

Man, this board has hit a new low when we're dumping on Dubas for letting Par Lindholm go...In the same posts we're talking about Marchessault being let go by various teams but that's okay?...You can find zillions of players that have been let go by teams over the years that have turned out to be decent to good players and we're talking about what a rotten manager Dubas is for letting Lindholm go?...SMH

 

[ACC1224]

Man, this board has hit a new low when we're dumping on Dubas for letting Par Lindholm go...In the same posts we're talking about Marchessault being let go by various teams but that's okay?...You can find zillions of players that have been let go by teams over the years that have turned out to be decent to good players and we're talking about what a rotten manager Dubas is for letting Lindholm go?...SMH

Agreed.
There are truck loads of things Dubas could be criticized for, this shouldn't even make the list.