Analyzing Dubas's Performance - III

[Northernguy10]

Agreed.
There are truck loads of things Dubas could be criticized for, this shouldn't even make the list.

Like any manager there are pros and cons...I think he deserves the 5 years that, I believe, any manager should have to prove or disprove himself. I said 4 years ago that I thought we'd "start" competing, or "opening the window" as many posters seem to prefer, in 2020/21 so in my mind anyway he has 2-3 years to do his thing...I think he's a very intelligent guy that will adapt in any areas in which he feels he's come up short. There are many examples of teams that haven't met expectations as quickly as many fans would like. I'm fine with him going forward...

 

[ACC1224]

Like any manager there are pros and cons...I think he deserves the 5 years that, I believe, any manager should have to prove or disprove himself. I said 4 years ago that I thought we'd "start" competing, or "opening the window" as many posters seem to prefer, in 2020/21 so in my mind anyway he has 2-3 years to do his thing...I think he's a very intelligent guy that will adapt in any areas in which he feels he's come up short. There are many examples of teams that haven't met expectations as quickly as many fans would like. I'm fine with him going forward...

I can appreciate your optimism, wish I shared it.

 

[Gallagbi]

His acquisition of guys like Petan and Malgin suggests he doesn't understand how icetime distribution works. Even if they were the next Marchessault, Parenteau or Desharnais, (why are they always Quebecois?) they wouldn't receive the opportunity to demonstrate it in a scoring role with how top-heavy we are.

Looks like they wanted Ennis(always version) not Marchessault to me

I think it suggest that he takes the trades avail to him. He's more of a tinkering guy than a swing for the fences guy (Burke)

Some would say the Tavares, Kadri and Muzzin moves were swing for the fences type situations, but he hasn't gutted the core.

 

[Punch Drunk Loov]

We spend a lot of time crushing Dubas for losing assets for nothing.

Look at the assets the Jackets burnt out on last year for acquiring: Duchene, losing Panarin, and the depth players whom I forget. Imagine this board's reaction if we lost two players of that caliber. The team still manages to be good without them.

 

[sparxx87]

Because you had other depth options ahead of him, which is why I mentioned he wasn't the 13th forward either. You also had a number of good Marlie options if needed.

And yes, Petan is more of an asset than nothing, whether you like him or not.

Who? Freddy Gauthier? And who were the good options on the Marlies?

True. But a player who can’t play in the league will never be worth much. For my money, it would have made more sense to bring back NHL player for 800k than trade him for AHL player.

Man, this board has hit a new low when we're dumping on Dubas for letting Par Lindholm go...In the same posts we're talking about Marchessault being let go by various teams but that's okay?...You can find zillions of players that have been let go by teams over the years that have turned out to be decent to good players and we're talking about what a rotten manager Dubas is for letting Lindholm go?...SMH

It’s not about Lindholm. Shake your head all you’d like but it’s because you missed the very simple point that it’s the principle and the thought process that went into the move. Trading an NHL player for an AHL player isn’t a sensible move that teams headed to the playoffs are making.

Just another highly questionable decision from an inexperienced GM whose made a habit of them.

 

[Dekes For Days]

you don't think Dubas hasn done even one thing as GM that's worthy of criticism and no matter what subject, you spin things in his favour.

Stop misrepresenting the things I say and do.

 

[Northernguy10]

I can appreciate your optimism, wish I shared it.

Try it sometime...Life is much better I've found...I'm an old geezer and I used to live and die with sports..For the last few years I've taken a much more pragmatic approach to sports...and life.

 

[Northernguy10]

Who? Freddy Gauthier? And who were the good options on the Marlies?

True. But a player who can’t play in the league will never be worth much. For my money, it would have made more sense to bring back NHL player for 800k than trade him for AHL player.

It’s not about Lindholm. Shake your head all you’d like but it’s because you missed the very simple point that it’s the principle and the thought process that went into the move. Trading an NHL player for an AHL player isn’t a sensible move that teams headed to the playoffs are making.

Just another highly questionable decision from an inexperienced GM whose made a habit of them.

The vast majority of posters on this board were not Lindholm fans...Now we're going to revisit the move a few years later in hindsight?...As I said there are a multitude of similar and greater moves made on an annual basis by almost all teams... The reasons he made such a 'drastic' move are listed in previous posts...hardly anything to lose sleep over and doesn't prove a pattern either negatively or positively.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Man, this board has hit a new low when we're dumping on Dubas for letting Par Lindholm go...In the same posts we're talking about Marchessault being let go by various teams but that's okay?...You can find zillions of players that have been let go by teams over the years that have turned out to be decent to good players and we're talking about what a rotten manager Dubas is for letting Lindholm go?...SMH

Agreed.

Agreed.
There are truck loads of things Dubas could be criticized for, this shouldn't even make the list.

Truck load is overstating it IMO but there are enough things to make a list for sure. And yes, Lindholm is definitely near the bottom of the list (if this deserves to be on the list at all).

We spend a lot of time crushing Dubas for losing assets for nothing.

Look at the assets the Jackets burnt out on last year for acquiring: Duchene, losing Panarin, and the depth players whom I forget. Imagine this board's reaction if we lost two players of that caliber. The team still manages to be good without them.

Imagine the reaction on this board if we could actually out perform the Jackets in the playoffs.

 

[Gallagbi]

Who? Freddy Gauthier? And who were the good options on the Marlies?

Yes, Goat and the guy who took his job this year are prime examples. We used 13F in the playoffs last year, Ennis was ahead of Lindholm and Goat was/had taken the 4th line C job

True. But a player who can’t play in the league will never be worth much. For my money, it would have made more sense to bring back NHL player for 800k than trade him for AHL player.

I think everyone agrees these are low value assets and moves. It's why Lindholm is making just above the minimum.

If we want to mourn the loss of Par Lindholm, we should probably complain about not signing him when the coach was likely on the ropes. Getting an asset for someone not expected to play is just logical

 

[Trapper]

Yes, Goat and the guy who took his job this year are prime examples. We used 13F in the playoffs last year, Ennis was ahead of Lindholm and Goat was/had taken the 4th line C job


I think everyone agrees these are low value assets and moves. It's why Lindholm is making just above the minimum.

If we want to mourn the loss of Par Lindholm, we should probably complain about not signing him when the coach was likely on the ropes. Getting an asset for someone not expected to play is just logical

If you want a Lindholm, you can find one. Not a major concern.
Harder players that can play up the lineup is a concern and back to back no 1st round picks for a team that will absolutely need depth (or find that D to fit without trading) due to half the cap spent is very troubling.

 

[Mess]

Like any manager there are pros and cons...I think he deserves the 5 years that, I believe, any manager should have to prove or disprove himself. I said 4 years ago that I thought we'd "start" competing, or "opening the window" as many posters seem to prefer, in 2020/21 so in my mind anyway he has 2-3 years to do his thing...I think he's a very intelligent guy that will adapt in any areas in which he feels he's come up short. There are many examples of teams that haven't met expectations as quickly as many fans would like. I'm fine with him going forward...

So then Lou Lam's 3 years Year #1 : Inheriting a 69 point team (last in the NHL) and drafting Matthews ----- (improving it by +26 points) --> Year #2: 95 points (lost in round #1 Washington) ----> Year #3: 105 points (franchise best mark) but lost in round #1.

This seems like a very odd time 3 years into a 5 year time frame for a GM term with your team on top and constantly moving forward to switch GMs, thinking the grasses is greener in doing so.

So Dubas is being compared to his predecessor's success record and his results are regressing not progressing nor building upon that inherited team, that it begs the questions;

1) Where would this Leafs team be now if Lou Lam had been given these last 2 years to complete his 5 year term, sign the 3 amigos and complete his window of opportunity?
2) Why would Dubas deserve a 5 year opportunity, when his results are clearly not moving the team forward and not 3 and done if he doesn't deliver on expectations?

PS. Lou Lam is doing Dubas no favours by moving on to a non playoff 80 point NYI team then gifting Dubas his best player and #1C Tavares and improving that team by +23 points to 103 and sweeping the Pens in round #1 and now this year again cruising through the qualifying round and primed for round #2 again just 1 win away.

Dubas with JT can't match Lou Lam performance while Leafs GM before him nor against his new team in a 1-1 comparison in the past 2 seasons.

 

[sparxx87]

The vast majority of posters on this board were not Lindholm fans...Now we're going to revisit the move a few years later in hindsight?...As I said there are a multitude of similar and greater moves made on an annual basis by almost all teams... The reasons he made such a 'drastic' move are listed in previous posts...hardly anything to lose sleep over and doesn't prove a pattern either negatively or positively.

Fandom of a player on an internet message board has absolutely nothing to do with this. The majority of people here aren’t qualified to make these decisions.

I didn’t randomly bring it up, I’d actually forgotten about it and jokingly posted “remember when” while watching the Bruins game and seeing how his coach utilized him.


Can you give me even one example of a team headed to the playoffs who traded NHL depth off their roster for an AHL player? That’s a genuine question because I can’t think of any. Maybe I’m just forgetting the multitude of similar moves.

These ‘reasons’ are all nonsense.

 

[Byron Bitz]

My two main criticisms of Dubas are the Marner contract and his inability to improve the right side of the defence. Are those fair criticisms?
I don’t think Marner is overpaid but you are supposed to get GREAT value out of your star players on their second deal. Dubas gave him almost what he would get in the open market.

 

[sparxx87]

Yes, Goat and the guy who took his job this year are prime examples. We used 13F in the playoffs last year, Ennis was ahead of Lindholm and Goat was/had taken the 4th line C job


I think everyone agrees these are low value assets and moves. It's why Lindholm is making just above the minimum.

If we want to mourn the loss of Par Lindholm, we should probably complain about not signing him when the coach was likely on the ropes. Getting an asset for someone not expected to play is just logical

Gauthier isn’t a better player, though? He’s bigger, but he’s not nearly as smart or as versatile. Why is a team headed to the playoffs decreasing the quality of their depth?

Gauthier stays on the roster while they prey he becomes a decent depth player. That hasn’t happened yet. Engvall has looked decent at times, but he’s just not very smart either.

I guess I tend to favour IQ over the ‘tools but no tool box’ kind of players.

 

[KPower]

My two main criticisms of Dubas are the Marner contract and his inability to improve the right side of the defence. Are those fair criticisms?
I don’t think Marner is overpaid but you are supposed to get GREAT value out of your star players on their second deal. Dubas gave him almost what he would get in the open market.

You don’t think Marner is overpaid?

Take a look at the Aho and Rantanen contracts.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Man, this board has hit a new low when we're dumping on Dubas for letting Par Lindholm go...In the same posts we're talking about Marchessault being let go by various teams but that's okay?...You can find zillions of players that have been let go by teams over the years that have turned out to be decent to good players and we're talking about what a rotten manager Dubas is for letting Lindholm go?...SMH

to be fair, it's basically just one guy. I don't think anyone else is taking that seriously

 

[ACC1224]

I'd say it was Lou who put him in this position.



I have a hard time taking posts seriously that keep saying "da". Why do you insist on doing this?

Lou? Dubas had a ton of cap space when he took over.

 

[Byron Bitz]

You don’t think Marner is overpaid?

Take a look at the Aho and Rantanen contracts.

I don’t think Marner is overpaid but I think Dubas should have been able to get him for less. Aho and Rantanen are underpaid as Marner should be. Your supposed to get your star players locked down to a steal of a deal after their ELC when they have no arb rights.

 

[Gallagbi]

Gauthier isn’t a better player, though? He’s bigger, but he’s not nearly as smart or as versatile. Why is a team headed to the playoffs decreasing the quality of their depth?

Gauthier stays on the roster while they prey he becomes a decent depth player. That hasn’t happened yet. Engvall has looked decent at times, but he’s just not very smart either.

I guess I tend to favour IQ over the ‘tools but no tool box’ kind of players.

That's fine, but you're projecting your own bias over the teams at that point and specifically the day to day lineup (coaching). Babs was looking for size on that 4th line and starting to utilize Goat more.

And they didn't reduce depth, they shifted it, likely because they didn't feel Par was in the playoff plans. So they got a player with as much NHL experience with more control.

You're welcome to disagree, I'm clearly not changing your mind or vice versa. So while I enjoy wasting my time discussing nonsense (clearly) the merits of Par Lindholm is a stretch for even me to drag in to multiple days. Cheers.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

Gauthier isn’t a better player, though? He’s bigger, but he’s not nearly as smart or as versatile. Why is a team headed to the playoffs decreasing the quality of their depth?

Gauthier stays on the roster while they prey he becomes a decent depth player. That hasn’t happened yet. Engvall has looked decent at times, but he’s just not very smart either.

I guess I tend to favour IQ over the ‘tools but no tool box’ kind of players.

When you don't have toughness/grit through the top 9 of your line up; you make up for it with goons on the fourth line. You don't have the cap to get a high IQ gritty guy but you still need some grit; so the best you can do is a low IQ size player. 4th line vets are important which is why the good ones are paid well and the flawed ones are not.

 

[sparxx87]

That's fine, but you're projecting your own bias over the teams at that point and specifically the day to day lineup (coaching). Babs was looking for size on that 4th line and starting to utilize Goat more.

And they didn't reduce depth, they shifted it, likely because they didn't feel Par was in the playoff plans. So they got a player with as much NHL experience with more control.

You're welcome to disagree, I'm clearly not changing your mind or vice versa. So while I enjoy wasting my time discussing nonsense (clearly) the merits of Par Lindholm is a stretch for even me to drag in to multiple days. Cheers.

Shifting from depth with an NHL player to an AHL player doesn’t seem very sensible to me.

But you’re right, this has gone on long enough. Cheers.

 

[sparxx87]

When you don't have toughness/grit through the top 9 of your line up; you make up for it with goons on the fourth line. You don't have the cap to get a high IQ gritty guy but you still need some grit; so the best you can do is a low IQ size player. 4th line vets are important which is why the good ones are paid well and the flawed ones are not.

Yeah. Unfortunately miscasting players has been a specialty with the Leafs for as long as I can remember.

Finding players who fit well into specific roles is what good teams do.

 

[7even]

Having time to cool down, I really have to wonder if we're just losing coin flips. No the team isn't perfect. Yes they have clear flaws. But so does most every team in the playoffs, and so do teams that go farther than them. Last 4 years:

2017: L vs WSH (6)
2018: L vs BOS (7)
2019: L vs BOS (7)
2020: L vs CBJ (5)

25/26 possible games played. It's not like we're getting bodied. It's snatching defeat from the jaws of victory every year. It's frustrating.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Lou? Dubas had a ton of cap space when he took over.

It was clear that having cap space was a temporary state of affairs and the 3rd year of that Marleau deal would be an issue. Many of us said it the minute the deal was signed and we were right. It was so obvious that this was a dumb move that to this day I can't imagine what the hell he was thinking.