All Encompassing Coaching and Glen Cigar Thread Part V

[aufheben]

2 goals in 68:00~ min of PP time. So, if we played an entire game 5-on-4, we could still lose. Cool.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

BRB, I have a gripe with both ES and the PP. However, I have more of a problem with the PP. ES has not been awful, though I think a lot of everything that happen stems from ES. The inept ability to have a transition game from playing a collapsing defense never allows this team to carry momentum or get into an offensive groove that they can then carry onto a PP possession. They have zero confidence with the puck and they constantly fall back on the dump and chase. They collapse so low that they don't have numbers going the other way and therefore all the puck carrier can do is dump it in. And then when we dump it in we lose the puck battle because we don't have the numbers. It is a trickle down effect. I think they get away with the good enough ES play because of the goalie they have and their top 4 defensemen. I really believe the positive feeling for the Torts supporters about strong ES play is clouded way too much. The inadequacies are there. Their whole system restricts their offense.

But even so, going back to the PP, if Torts was a strong offensive coach or if he had the PP units performing then I could lay off on their loose collapsing defensive strategy because at least their PP units would be winning games. However, they aren't. The Caps series should not have went 7 games. They shouldn't have played as many playoff games last year as they did with a good PP. But this year's PP is even worse. 5%. That's awful. They could've taken Game 1 and last night with just an average PP. It is sad. Very sad. They've need a PP coach during Torts' entire tenure. He refuses to let anyone in.

I honestly, do not hate Torts. You cannot blame him for what has happened to Richards. I think Torts has great defensive qualities, as does Sullivan. I think Torts makes certain players tougher and prepares them better. But certain players he does not work well with and he just pushes them away rather them integrate them. You need to score goals to win the game. You cannot rely on a grind it out game with a lucky bounce or garbage goals all the time to win.

I agree with virtually all of this. So what is with the hate? What is with the need to see him gone with no viable replacement just to start this whole thing over again?

Im on board with forcing Tortorella to employ an offensive X & O's/PP guy for next season. If he refuses, then give him the boot.

Im not even a huge Tortorella fan, but I find this movement to get rid of him to be nothing more than a knee-jerk reaction stemming from frustration.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Compare our cluster**** of a coach with this guy.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nhl--f...light-approach-with-young-team-175504835.html

You don't need to be a jack-ass to be a tough coach.

But in this no accountability (dis)organization even a 4 and out embarrassment won't guarantee we look for alternatives.

 

[RGY]

I agree with virtually all of this. So what is with the hate? What is with the need to see him gone with no viable replacement just to start this whole thing over again?

Im on board with forcing Tortorella to employ an offensive X & O's/PP guy for next season. If he refuses, then give him the boot.

Im not even a huge Tortorella fan, but I find this movement to get rid of him to be nothing more than a knee-jerk reaction stemming from frustration.

I don't hate him. I am very reactionary right after the game has ended. I like Torts to varying degrees. I actually don't mind how he handles the media. I really could careless what the media thinks. However, when you are not winning and you treat the media like that it's tough to weather.

I honestly haven't thought much about who the replacement would be. But what I do know is all of the things i listed above is beyond frustrating at this point. It is exasperating because the majority all can see it. And I am not sitting here thinking Torts isn't trying. I know he is. He cares too much and wants to win. But what he is doing isn't enough. It is not working. It is rare players will go to the head coach and say to him a change his needed. To go to him and tell him we need to hire someone to figure out this PP. That's on Torts. And as much as people hate Sather, you damn well know Sather is not going to intervene and tell Torts who he has to hire. Sather has let Torts make a lot of the decisions. Most teams have 3 coaches, not counting the goalie coach. At some point this season, a PP coach should've been hired.

All I know is I can't go through this again next season. I can't watch us lose hard fought games because we couldn't capitalize on a PP or two. Especially when it's because the PP has the same reoccurring issues that constantly are not addressed or fixed. And it's because he and Sully do not know how to fix it. At some point you need to give in and admit you can't solve it.

 

[Kershaw]

The the plan is essentially to tank?

Yes.

It's the only way to get franchise centers and even franchise defensemen.

 

[Dalagaze]

Compare our cluster**** of a coach with this guy.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nhl--f...light-approach-with-young-team-175504835.html

You don't need to be a jack-ass to be a tough coach.

But in this no accountability (dis)organization even a 4 and out embarrassment won't guarantee we look for alternatives.

Torts and a 2nd rounder (provided we don't re-sign Clowe) for MacLean and Anderson's missing tooth.

Get 'er done Glenny

 

[haohmaru]

Yes.

It's the only way to get franchise centers and even franchise defensemen.

That's just a ridiculous statement. Tons of "franchise centers and defenseman" have won Cups with teams other than the one that drafted them.

Messier
Borque
Chara
Stevens
Niedermayer
Carter
Richards

Etc.. etc...

Tanking isn't the answer and it certainly won't work in NY.

 

[MrEctions]

If I was in charge (5 yr rebuild plan)

1. Fire Sather, Gorton and Clark
2. Hire management from a winning organization that are content with youth movement. (Hextall)
3. Full roster turnaround. Lundqvst, Nash, Girardi, Brassard, Staal, Callahan, Pyatt, Boyle, Richards all moved. Keep MDZ, Moore, Stepan, McDonagh, Kreider, Hagelin along with other young players bought in from trade.
4. Sign hired mercenaries from FA and move them at TDD unless they play well.
5. 3 yr rebuild plan from the draft. 3 straight top 3 picks, hopefully picking up a few franchise players.
6. Compete for playoffs in yr 4.
7. Add finishing pieces in yr 5 and open up a 3 yr window for competing with ELCs and bridge contracts in place.

Thank god you're not in charge then Kershaw. I get some of what you would want to do. Others leave me scratching my head. Why move Brassard? Young, skilled, cheap. Makes no sense. Why fire Gorton? He's largely responsible for where Boston currently stands, and has proven he knows what he's doing. I hand the reigns to Gorton if anything. Move Lundqvist? I guess only so you can be guaranteed to draft high?

 

[MrEctions]

That's just a ridiculous statement. Tons of "franchise centers and defenseman" have won Cups with teams other than the one that drafted them.

Messier
Borque
Chara
Stevens
Niedermayer
Carter
Richards

Etc.. etc...

Tanking isn't the answer and it certainly won't work in NY.

The tanking plans have certainly worked out for teams like Edmonton and the Fishsticks.....

 

[gmerger37]

If I was in charge (5 yr rebuild plan)

1. Fire Sather, Gorton and Clark
2. Hire management from a winning organization that are content with youth movement. (Hextall)
3. Full roster turnaround. Lundqvst, Nash, Girardi, Brassard, Staal, Callahan, Pyatt, Boyle, Richards all moved. Keep MDZ, Moore, Stepan, McDonagh, Kreider, Hagelin along with other young players bought in from trade.
4. Sign hired mercenaries from FA and move them at TDD unless they play well.
5. 3 yr rebuild plan from the draft. 3 straight top 3 picks, hopefully picking up a few franchise players.
6. Compete for playoffs in yr 4.
7. Add finishing pieces in yr 5 and open up a 3 yr window for competing with ELCs and bridge contracts in place.

LOL

Torts is going to be gone but sadly it is going to be later rather than sooner, the fact is he is stubborn moronic coach who refuses to adapt, and the game has passed him by. His way of hockey is done, plain and simple. This team, or any team dumb enough to give this guy a shot after we fire him will not win another cup with the "system" torts coaches. What scares me is listening to his answers after games. He is never wrong, his system is never to blame, we just need to dump and chase more, and wander around aimlessly on the PP according to torts to win. He is crazy out of touch at this point.

The worst news for rangers fans is he will be given next year to ruin as well and if we are still struggling to compete for a playoff spot and either barely make the playoffs or get bounced early in the playoffs only then will he be fired.

Lucky for us before he is put out to pasture we get to witness more collapsing 6 goalie system where pucks hit our defensemen in the face and our all world goalie wastes another year of his prime furstratingly watching pucks deflected by our own players whizz by him.

Oh and did I mention we get yet another year of a 27th ranked PP? Also we get more Torts soundbites, him abusing reporters, him ranting about how jam and grinding will solve all our problems, etc.

Finally, people around the league are starting to notice/speculate that torts' time may be done. I don't know if anyone here listens to the Marek v Wyshenski podcast but there was a guy on recently who basically said he saw a team that is tired of playing the way torts coaches, and that the grinding shot blocking ways really wears down a team. So even if the players aren't tuning him out and are buying in, by the time playoffs come around they are burnt out and exhausted from playing john's style anyway.

Should be a fun year.

 

[Zamboner]

If the defense for Tortorella is, "Well then Glen Saver deserves to go too," then okay. I'm down with that. Both are living off past laurels.

 

[gmerger37]

If the defense for Tortorella is, "Well then Glen Saver deserves to go too," then okay. I'm down with that. Both are living off past laurels.

Exactly, I don't think anyone here is saying Johhny boy should go and glen should stay, but most people realize sather is going to be around as long as he is alive because of how much jimmy dolan loves him. Most people just are realistic and know john will be gone before sather.

 

[Kershaw]

That's just a ridiculous statement. Tons of "franchise centers and defenseman" have won Cups with teams other than the one that drafted them.

Messier
Borque
Chara
Stevens
Niedermayer
Carter
Richards

Etc.. etc...

Tanking isn't the answer and it certainly won't work in NY.

Mark Messier trade was how many years ago? 22? 25?

Raymond Bourque was 39 at the time he was traded.

Zdeno Chara wasn't NHL quality with the Isles before the Yashin trade. No one expected him to turn into one of the greatest defensemen of this generation.

Stevens was over 23 yrs ago I'm thinking. So long ago to even think about.

Neidermayer only left the Devils after his Norris Trophy year to play alongside his brother to finish his career, which he openly admitted to doing so. The Devils offered him the Max contract.

Carter and Richards are far from superstar players.

The last franchise #1C moved in a trade and under contract must've been Joe Thornton, 7 seasons ago.

Whatever the 'Rangers way' is, it's clearly proven to be inefficient this millennium. I guess we can merely accept the fact that this team will continue to overpay players past their primes to search for elite talent.

 

[Kel Varnsen]

Torts was a Jack Adams award finalist last year. Just thought people needed to be reminded of that.

 

[Kershaw]

Thank god you're not in charge then Kershaw. I get some of what you would want to do. Others leave me scratching my head. Why move Brassard? Young, skilled, cheap. Makes no sense. Why fire Gorton? He's largely responsible for where Boston currently stands, and has proven he knows what he's doing. I hand the reigns to Gorton if anything. Move Lundqvist? I guess only so you can be guaranteed to draft high?

Brassard is not a long term fixture as a 2C in my eyes. He is also not good enough offensively to hide his defensive deficiencies to be a shutdown C. Gorton has worked under Sather and was the director of player personnel for many years during the Rangers years of mediocre early playoff exits and low seedings. I just want to clean house completely and start with a change in team direction. And moving Lundqvist guarantees a Lotto pick.

 

[Doctyl]

Brassard is not a long term fixture as a 2C in my eyes. He is also not good enough offensively to hide his defensive deficiencies to be a shutdown C. Gorton has worked under Sather and was the director of player personnel for many years during the Rangers years of mediocre early playoff exits and low seedings. I just want to clean house completely and start with a change in team direction. And moving Lundqvist guarantees a Lotto pick.

brass is a 2C regardless of your irrational dislike for him. Gorton built boston. moving lundqvist? yea you get a lotto pick but the best goalies in the world dont exactly grow on trees

 

[haohmaru]

Mark Messier trade was how many years ago? 22? 25?

Raymond Bourque was 39 at the time he was traded.

Zdeno Chara wasn't NHL quality with the Isles before the Yashin trade. No one expected him to turn into one of the greatest defensemen of this generation.

Stevens was over 23 yrs ago I'm thinking. So long ago to even think about.

Neidermayer only left the Devils after his Norris Trophy year to play alongside his brother to finish his career, which he openly admitted to doing so. The Devils offered him the Max contract.

Carter and Richards are far from superstar players.

The last franchise #1C moved in a trade and under contract must've been Joe Thornton, 7 seasons ago.

Whatever the 'Rangers way' is, it's clearly proven to be inefficient this millennium. I guess we can merely accept the fact that this team will continue to overpay players past their primes to search for elite talent.

You making excuses for everything doesn't change the fact that all of the above, just off the top of my head, were franchise type players that won Cups on teams that didn't draft them. It proves, however, that your statement was false.

Nice try, though.

 

[Kershaw]

brass is a 2C regardless of your irrational dislike for him. Gorton built boston. moving lundqvist? yea you get a lotto pick but the best goalies in the world dont exactly grow on trees

Brassard is a 2C by default on offensively incompetent teams like the Rangers and Blue Jackets.

 

[iamitter]

Brassard is a 2C by default on offensively incompetent teams like the Rangers and Blue Jackets.

He hasn't been playing like one here.

 

[Kershaw]

you making excuses for everything doesn't change the fact that all of the above, just off the top of my head, were franchise type players that won cups on teams that didn't draft them. it proves, however, that your statement was false.

nice try, though.

technically not impossible, but highly improbably. backtracking to trades 20 yrs in the past proves it.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

The time for what Kershaw is proposing was 2004. Sather just couldnt bring himself to go through with a true rebuild.

Retained Jagr who re-emerged. Stuck in purgatory ever since.

 

[Kershaw]

He hasn't been playing like one here.

Unsustainable hot streak. Brassard's previous pedigree suggests he is a highly inconsistent player. Even advanced stats, he has highest on ice sh% on the team and still gets outshot while on ice. Lee Stempniak for example once put up 14g in 18gp with the Coyotes after being traded there at the deadline. I'd like to see how things play out next season before concluding Brassard as a good 2C.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Well, the axe is starting to fall on NHL coaches. Vigneault now, probably Laviolette in the next month....

 

[JohnC]

Scoop up Laviolette
Keep Sully
Hire PP coach
?????
Profit

 

[Kershaw]

The time for what Kershaw is proposing was 2004. Sather just couldnt bring himself to go through with a true rebuild.

Retained Jagr who re-emerged. Stuck in purgatory ever since.

The time can still be now. The Rangers shouldn't pull a Calgary Flames and continue to toil in mediocrity and make it continuous goals of limping into the playoffs. Trade players while they have high value.