All Encompassing Coaching and Glen Cigar Thread Part V

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There is nothing in his game to suggest he has high end offensive potential IMO. He's never put up major point totals at any level. I don't understand how Torts is holding him back. Tortorella hockey helped elevate McDonagh from a throw-in prospect into a system he thrives in as the team's #1 overall defenseman.

25 GP 0g 1a
59 GP 2g 6a
65 GP 2g 9a
82 GP 2g 7a

First four years in the NHL. What defenseman had these stats his first four years and subsequently scored 40+ points, post lockout, 8 years in a row?

Ryan McDonagh's college stats are absolutely meaningless.
 
I don't really see the offensive hockey sense in him to see him being utilized as an offensive defenseman. He is what he is, a 20-35 pt defenensive d-man with fair production at ES.

He was 7th in the NHL in ES scoring among defenders last season. That's better than Letang, Weber, Pietrangelo, Keith, Streit and Campbell. I'd say that's better than "fair" production.

This was his production in college hockey/AHL:

There is nothing in his game to suggest he has high end offensive potential IMO. He's never put up major point totals at any level. I don't understand how Torts is holding him back. Tortorella hockey helped elevate McDonagh from a throw-in prospect into a system he thrives in as the team's #1 overall defenseman.

McDonagh spent the majority of his time as part of the key shutdown pair for Wisconsin along with Cody Goloubef. McBain / Smith and then Smith / Schultz saw the bulk of the offensive work. McDonagh saw minimal PP time on the 2nd unit. Once again, stats don't even begin to tell the story.

He was never a throw-in prospect. The Rangers wanted him and they got him.
 
Well that's just crazy talk (Stepan/McDonagh/Nash >>>>>> Tortorella), although as I've said before, I actually do think Torts is a good coach. I just don't think his style is a fit for this team, and I'm very skeptical about Tortorella being able to adjust his system to fit the team, the guy is stubborn as a mule.

Pretty much. I wasn't a fan of Renney, but the guy got a lot out of the roster he was given. He came up with a system to play to the strengths of his players. Torts does the opposite. He tries to jam a round peg into a square hole and when it doesn't fit, he just gets a bigger hammer.
 
Pretty much. I wasn't a fan of Renney, but the guy got a lot out of the roster he was given. He came up with a system to play to the strengths of his players. Torts does the opposite. He tries to jam a round peg into a square hole and when it doesn't fit, he just gets a bigger hammer.

your a bit off.. torts is many things but the guy got and does get the most out of most players.. torts developed way more young players and turned boarder line NHL players into serviceable nhl players.. renney never did that, sorry but noway!!.. way better coach then renney in terms on development and getting most out of players.. renney was the definition of safe and true defensive first... bc it ultimately got him fired!!
 
your a bit off.. torts is many things but the guy got and does get the most out of most players.. torts developed way more young players and turned boarder line NHL players into serviceable nhl players.. renney never did that, sorry but noway!!.. way better coach then renney in terms on development and getting most out of players.. renney was the definition of safe and true defensive first... bc it ultimately got him fired!!

The horror that was the 08-09 Rangers' roster is what led to Renney being fired.

That being said, yes, Tortorella is a much better coach than Renney.
 
The horror that was the 08-09 Rangers' roster is what led to Renney being fired.

That being said, yes, Tortorella is a much better coach than Renney.

Wanted Renney gone at the end as much as the next guy, but You MUST be Joking. Tortorella and Renney have almost identical records and results in both regular and post seasonal play as NYR head coaches (arguments can be made either way here). But importantly,Tortorella has by far had the better roster to work with (and more handcrafted/picked one) throughout his coaching tenure in Gotham.

Performance
Goaltending = same (although Lunqvist has improved during Tortorella - not his doing though)
Defense = edge Tortorella
Offense = edge Renney
PP = big edge Renney
PK = edge Tortorella

In game coaching = big edge Renney
Player development = edge Tortorella (Renney had very little talent coming up but this is a GM failure not his)
Locker room/players attitude = edge Renney
On ice discipline = pretty even, both with pluses and minuses
Entertainment value of style hockey employed = huge edge Renney
Injury risk in style employed = duh...
Off ice discipline or "class" = oh boy...
Forecast of winning Cup = both basically none

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I think there are several reason's why McD should be on the power play. Unlike Girardi who likes to shoot wide, and DelZotto who likes to shoot at shin pads. McD gets shots on net. He also very good at dancing with the puck around the blueline. Skills that could allow him to get past a defended, which often results in defenders giving the player more space.

I dont care if he doesnt have a 100mph shot. If he can get it on net, and make more space, then do it.
 
This is the first time im going to dissect this season since they've lost and i've "cooled" down a bit.

I think the most glaring thing for the Rangers is to get deeper, or should I say "trustworthy". Almost the entire Boston series and even at times in the Washington one, the Rangers looked beat up, tired, run down, lethargic at times. It's probably because Tortorella ran the nucleus of this team into the ground.

When you watch what the Bruins did, and all of the other Elite 8 in the playoffs, they looked 5X fresher then the Rangers. Yet somehow the Rangers muster up a performance and gut it out which is indicative of their character. But its not a smart move organizationally. Tortorella in particular needs to change his approach and needs to realize you can't overplay key players if you want to go anywhere in the playoffs. They are gassed by the second round. And this was in a HALF-SEASON.

Part of the blame falls on Glen, so its two-fold. I've felt that the Rangers have been an overachieving team in large part due to effort. Guys like Hagelin, Callahan, Girardi - they all exemplify that but over the course of the season you can't live just effort alone. Some nights (and as you get older its gets harder and harder) you just don't have it. There's a fine balance there.

So i think Sather needs to make smart decisions with his signings and buyouts to provide Tortorella with more speed, skill, depth and therefore more trust. He needs to deepen the blue-line, because who knows whats in store for Staal longterm. Torts needs to readjust himself similar to Coach Coughlin with the Giants in 2007. Hell have a full camp to do what he needs to do, but i feel like he needs to reinvent himself a little bit, and maybe open up the system to keep things fresh and the players engaged.

Gotta be concerned about Biron. He's going to get more work next year but didn't play at all this season (6 games). It's likely to be his last season, but I don't think you can go into the season blindly thinking hell recapture the form that he had in 2011-12 (21 games). I think it would be wise for management to make sure they have a suitable 3rd string in the system, or go out and get one to be groomed for 14-15. (Not to mention the slim chance that Henrik decides to play somewhere else)...

I think the Rangers have some good pieces and some players will benefit from a full camp. I'm really excited about Brassard and hoping he stays consistent. Stepan was fantastic and needs to continue to grow. I think Boyle will have a better year and is more valuable then some make him out to be, especially when he slots into a 4th line role - where he needs to be. The Rangers need to make some smart moves to surround the middle of this team with speed, and not be afraid to get rid of some of the deadwood.

I just want a plan from a personnel standpoint, that matches the coaching techniques moving forward. And for christssake, fix the ****ing powerplay. Just bring it to normalcy. If the rangers had a NORMAL powerplay, they score 5-7 more goals in the playoffs. They beat Washington in less then 7. They could be playing a Game 7 tonight. Bring in someone to coach the PP. I dont care if Torts doesnt want another coach. Hes got one of the best goalie coaches in the world who dedicates time to one important facet of the game. I see no reason to not do the same for special teams. I put the complete blame on Sather if this doesnt happen. Management needs to recognize its weaknesses, and address them appropriately. They've tried everything so im sure bringing in a specialist isnt going to make an already dreadful powerplay worse.
 
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The horror that was the 08-09 Rangers' roster is what led to Renney being fired.

That being said, yes, Tortorella is a much better coach than Renney.

Eh, Im not so sure. They're polar opposites. I wish we could take the positives from both and build our own coach.

One thing I firmly believe in is that both took their respective rosters over the past 8 years as far as they were capable of going. That 08-09 roster was one of, if not THE worst on-paper roster I've seen in my 25 years as a Ranger fan. Even in the dark ages, at least there were some big names that gave you hope before they inevitably played like garbage. Top line to open the 08-09 season was Voros - Dubinsky - Zherdev. Ugh.

Renney "lost" that team and Tortorella coached the team to 6-9th place finishes in his first couple of seasons. Even back then, the onus was placed moreso on the coach than an incapable roster.

Nowadays, we definitely have a better roster, one capable of the 2nd round or a conference finals appearance, but its not a championship roster. I'd like to think everyone knows that in their heart of hearts. But, judging from some of the more recent posts - just like in 2009 - the coach that is meeting expectations in terms of the roster they have to work with is more of the issue. :shakehead
 
Locker room/players attitude = edge Renney

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I have to disagree here, big time BB.

When I think locker room, I think motivation, and IMO Renney was horrendous at that. So many times he could have flipped out and lit a fire under the team (and it was needed) and he was incapable of doing that. It just wasnt him.
 
I have to disagree here, big time BB.

When I think locker room, I think motivation, and IMO Renney was horrendous at that. So many times he could have flipped out and lit a fire under the team (and it was needed) and he was incapable of doing that. It just wasnt him.

So with Torts explosive personality how do you account for the team playing less than inspired hockey for most of the season ? They came out flat and started many games on their heels. How was the explosive personality a plus ? The ultimate motivator as he is referred to around here by some couldn't even get his troops to show up in games.
 
So with Torts explosive personality how do you account for the team playing less than inspired hockey for most of the season ? They came out flat and started many games on their heels. How was the explosive personality a plus ? The ultimate motivator as he is referred to around here by some couldn't even get his troops to show up in games.

It takes some longer than others for the message to click.

Are you suggesting 48 games, no training camp, and 2 major roster turnovers were favorable conditions to give this team an identity?
 
It takes some longer than others for the message to click.

Are you suggesting 48 games, no training camp, and 2 major roster turnovers were favorable conditions to give this team an identity?

Wait are we discussing a team identity or the motivational attributes of Torts vs. Renneys personality.

You seemed to be suggesting that Firey Torts gets the troops ready to play while Renney did not.

I said that Torts Firey personality failed to have the troops ready to play, up to and including the majority of the playoff games

So now Torts firey personality is only effective when he has a full season to yell at people ? and training camp ?

He didn't have the guys who played for him last season ready to play, he didn't have the new guys after the deadline ready to play. So how effective is his motivational personality that he never was able to get his message through to his players consistently throughout the season. On top of and including guys who have played for him in years past ?
 
While an identity is important, that was not the issue with this team this year. The issue is and has been John Tortorella's system. Yes the team, was tougher last year but a lot of the credit goes to Henrik. And either way that was last year. Tortorella's collapsing, uncreative offensive, system was a detriment to the roster he had. He never adjusted. This is the problem. This is what scares me for next year. It was blatantly obvious his coaching methods were not working for THIS roster, at the beginning the season and at the deadline. The players they have brought in do not block shots the way previous players did. Brassard does not block shots, but he added offense we badly needed. Pyatt, Powe, and Nash do not block shots. Brooks was perfectly right in that Tortorella needs to coach the roster he has, not the one he had or wishes he had. And anyone who is so naive to think Tortorella does not have a say in this team's transactions, needs to GTFO right now, or at least off this message board. Sather and Gorton know what type of coach they have. They know they can't just give him players without him having a say given his attitude and ego. The system needs to change.

And you know the system is bad when we have people contemplating trading Henrik Lundqvist, the best goalie in the world, for Duchene and a the 1st overall pick which would be a forward; that's how desperate for offense we are. We think by adding more talented forwards it will help. IT WON'T. A guy like Duchene will come in, just as Nash and Gaborik did, and be forced to play a collapsing defensive system that oppresses offense. You can keep bringing in forward after forward, but if the system sucks it won't matter.

Henrik stays, Torts does a 180 or he goes fast into the 2013-2014 season.
 
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