All Encompassing Coaching and Glen Cigar Thread Part V

[RGY]

I love the comments about Callahan being perfect for Backes, the Bruins, and Dubinsky...We don't have those players. Tortorella needs to realize that and stop coaching a grind it out style in the corners. No more loose on the points, collapsing into the middle in front of Henrik. Safe is death for this roster.

 

[MessierIsGod]

Safe is death for this roster.

Love this quote. Could not have said it better.

(Plus, it's "tort"-ure for a fan of hockey to watch)

 

[Clown Fiesta]

I like players individual IQ's being called out as if they're not playing the way coaches want them to. If the system allowed more creativity you'd have a better idea of these players actual hockey IQ. Everyone has bought in with the exception of Brassard who Torts himself said didn't seem to care about anything but playing his game, only guy to show his intelligence and creativity on offense. Richards is or at least has been a smart player, now he's dumb? Is it the water in the locker room or the system?

 

[Kel Varnsen]

I love the comments about Callahan being perfect for Backes, the Bruins, and Dubinsky...We don't have those players. Tortorella needs to realize that and stop coaching a grind it out style in the corners. No more loose on the points, collapsing into the middle in front of Henrik. Safe is death for this roster.

Anyone can play tight defensively responsible hockey. All it takes is commitment. Not everyone can play an open offensive system well. This squad would get wrecked trying to play that way by all the other teams who play that way better.

You're not going to out Penguin the Penguins with this lineup. How is that so hard for you and your crowd to get? We showed last year however, you can out work those teams and the way to do it is a commitment to defense and responsible hockey.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

I like players individual IQ's being called out as if they're not playing the way coaches want them to. If the system allowed more creativity you'd have a better idea of these players actual hockey IQ. Everyone has bought in with the exception of Brassard who Torts himself said didn't seem to care about anything but playing his game, only guy to show his intelligence and creativity on offense. Richards is or at least has been a smart player, now he's dumb? Is it the water in the locker room or the system?

No matter what system is employed, players are always going to be asked to make key skill plays in key areas of the ice. This idea that Torts wants his players to be a bunch of mindless drones shoveling the puck down the wall is pure fantasy.

The breakout/transition game could use work. The PP sure as hell could use work. But when I watch this team play, I see players incapable of making the creative play - not players who are being prevented from making it.

 

[Kel Varnsen]

No matter what system is employed, players are always going to be asked to make key skill plays in key areas of the ice. This idea that Torts wants his players to be a bunch of mindless drones shoveling the puck down the wall is pure fantasy.

The breakout/transition game could use work. The PP sure as hell could use work. But when I watch this team play, I see players incapable of making the creative play - not players who are being prevented from making it.

But that would mean our problems are actually more complicated than just firing one guy! That can't be the case! I like things simple and easy! Fire Bleed Ranger Blue!

 

[NikC]

No matter what system is employed, players are always going to be asked to make key skill plays in key areas of the ice. This idea that Torts wants his players to be a bunch of mindless drones shoveling the puck down the wall is pure fantasy.

The breakout/transition game could use work. The PP sure as hell could use work. But when I watch this team play, I see players incapable of making the creative play - not players who are being prevented from making it.

Players are ultimately responsible for making things happen, but with no set lines along with linemates that are constantly being juggled any player would struggle with consistent offensive production. It’s asking quite a lot for players to manufacture offensive opportunities with whomever they are paired with.

Structure, set plays, familiarity, breeds consistency. We need to see more of this. The “playing the hot hand†strategy and the “no set lines†mentality has to go.

 

[NickyFotiu]

A 3rd line player who breaks out with speed has a much better chance of making something happen than a 1st or 2nd line player who breaks out by just dumping the puck up the boards. The greatest players in this game would be hampered by the lack of speed that our breakout system imposes on them. That does not mean they could not still make things happen once they were in the offensive end but it does mean their production would be much better with a system that lets them breakout with speed.

 

[Kel Varnsen]

Players are ultimately responsible for making things happen, but with no set lines along with linemates that are constantly being juggled any player would struggle with consistent offensive production. It’s asking quite a lot for players to manufacture offensive opportunities with whomever they are paired with.

Structure, set plays, familiarity, breeds consistency. We need to see more of this. The “playing the hot hand†strategy and the “no set lines†mentality has to go.

This idea that players have to play with the exact same people every single day, or else they'll have no shot to play well together is absurd. These guys practice together, they watch film together. They're not strangers off the street. Also, this perverse perspective predicts pretty pitiful performance when guys first skate together, which is objectively proven wrong. We see guys click right away, and we see jolts in certain guys from changing the lines.

To talk about this fictional "torts stubbornness" and then to criticize line adjustments, wanting these adjustments to stop happening altogether, is cognitive dissonance on a grand scale.

 

[Bardof425*]

No matter what system is employed, players are always going to be asked to make key skill plays in key areas of the ice. This idea that Torts wants his players to be a bunch of mindless drones shoveling the puck down the wall is pure fantasy.

The breakout/transition game could use work. The PP sure as hell could use work. But when I watch this team play, I see players incapable of making the creative play - not players who are being prevented from making it.

This is an important distinction. I fall on the other side. I think he has made his roster afraid to fail and they play it safe almost all the time which leads to chips along the boards and not puck carrying. There is alot of talent on this roster that has been largely neutered by this coach.

 

[NikC]

This idea that players have to play with the exact same people every single day, or else they'll have no shot to play well together is absurd. These guys practice together, they watch film together. They're not strangers off the street. Also, this perverse perspective predicts pretty pitiful performance when guys first skate together, which is objectively proven wrong. We see guys click right away, and we see jolts in certain guys from changing the lines.

To talk about this fictional "torts stubbornness" and then to criticize line adjustments, wanting these adjustments to stop happening altogether, is cognitive dissonance on a grand scale.

what???? adjustments are one thing, but there are no set lines with this coach. he shuffles lines at the first instance of players not producing. If something works one game it's an anomaly. You have to have structure, familiarity and consistency. This is why they look like they never know why/how the PP or offensive game is supposed to be played.

 

[Jersey Girl]

This idea that players have to play with the exact same people every single day, or else they'll have no shot to play well together is absurd. These guys practice together, they watch film together. They're not strangers off the street. Also, this perverse perspective predicts pretty pitiful performance when guys first skate together, which is objectively proven wrong. We see guys click right away, and we see jolts in certain guys from changing the lines.

Thanks Peter Piper! Love the alliteration!

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

This is an important distinction. I fall on the other side. I think he has made his roster afraid to fail and they play it safe almost all the time which leads to chips along the boards and not puck carrying. There is alot of talent on this roster that has been largely neutered by this coach.

Agree to disagree, I suppose. Every championship team for as long as I can remember has had at least 2 elite talents at forward or defense. The Rangers have none. Their only elite player is Henrik Lundqvist. Nash could be up there, but these playoffs showed he has no mean streak and no real sense of urgency to up his compete level. I hope this changes.

I guess its just to much easier, as a fan, to buy into this notion that the team is just fine and they need to fire the coach and his system. Its a lot easier than the reality that this roster just simply isnt championship caliber.

 

[Jersey Girl]

Agree to disagree, I suppose. Every championship team for as long as I can remember has had at least 2 elite talents at forward or defense. The Rangers have none. Their only elite player is Henrik Lundqvist. Nash could be up there, but these playoffs showed he has no mean streak and no real sense of urgency to up his compete level. I hope this changes.

I guess its just to much easier, as a fan, to buy into this notion that the team is just fine and they need to fire the coach and his system. Its a lot easier than the reality that this roster just simply isnt championship caliber.

Well said

 

[Clown Fiesta]

No matter what system is employed, players are always going to be asked to make key skill plays in key areas of the ice. This idea that Torts wants his players to be a bunch of mindless drones shoveling the puck down the wall is pure fantasy.

The breakout/transition game could use work. The PP sure as hell could use work. But when I watch this team play, I see players incapable of making the creative play - not players who are being prevented from making it.

I see too many safe plays, with the exception of a few skaters who like to make behind the back or spin-o-rama passes to no one. We have several players capable of making creative plays Brass, Zucc, Stepan, McD, Moore, MDZ when he isn't confused about what day it is.

It obviously isn't the system on it's own, but I do believe it's restrictive and having a coach on top of that who benches guys for every turn over they make causes players like Kreider for instance to play a very north/south game without trying to do too much.

Defensive responsibility is obviously huge, but I've been saying since the first week of the season Torts needs to let them breath a little more.

I guess its just to much easier, as a fan, to buy into this notion that the team is just fine and they need to fire the coach and his system. Its a lot easier than the reality that this roster just simply isnt championship caliber.

What the **** is this? Because someone thinks the coach needs to bear some of the burden all of a sudden aren't living in reality?

Hard to have a conversation on something when people act this arrogant. No **** this team isn't championship caliber, they can't score any goals. Hmm wonder why that is, could it be because they have zero talent? Perhaps, or could it be because the system is restrictive? Perhaps. Hmm two valid opinions, but wait there is more, how about a combination of both? Woah no way!

Posting here is getting worse by the day, everyone wants to be right about **** and to impose their superiority on others, instead of you know, just discussing stuff.

 

[Kershaw]

No matter what system is employed, players are always going to be asked to make key skill plays in key areas of the ice. This idea that Torts wants his players to be a bunch of mindless drones shoveling the puck down the wall is pure fantasy.

The breakout/transition game could use work. The PP sure as hell could use work. But when I watch this team play, I see players incapable of making the creative play - not players who are being prevented from making it.

Ding ding ding!

 

[Kershaw]

Agree to disagree, I suppose. Every championship team for as long as I can remember has had at least 2 elite talents at forward or defense. The Rangers have none. Their only elite player is Henrik Lundqvist. Nash could be up there, but these playoffs showed he has no mean streak and no real sense of urgency to up his compete level. I hope this changes.

I guess its just to much easier, as a fan, to buy into this notion that the team is just fine and they need to fire the coach and his system. Its a lot easier than the reality that this roster just simply isnt championship caliber.

This is the most accurate statement IMO. Can't win the derby without the proper horses.

 

[stan the caddy]

The Rangers need a player that can shoot from the neutral zone because that's where Brad likes to place his drop passes.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

What the **** is this? Because someone thinks the coach needs to bear some of the burden all of a sudden aren't living in reality?

Hard to have a conversation on something when people act this arrogant. No **** this team isn't championship caliber, they can't score any goals. Hmm wonder why that is, could it be because they have zero talent? Perhaps, or could it be because the system is restrictive? Perhaps. Hmm two valid opinions, but wait there is more, how about a combination of both? Woah no way!

Posting here is getting worse by the day, everyone wants to be right about **** and to impose their superiority on others, instead of you know, just discussing stuff.

That post wasnt even in reply to you. It was in reply to a poster who basically presented the argument that the entire dilemma is due to the coach and his system. You have every right to interject with your thin skin. Just like I have every right to think the line of thinking that the coaching/system problems outweigh the talent problems is a bunch of *********.

 

[3rd Guy High]

Anyone can play tight defensively responsible hockey. All it takes is commitment. Not everyone can play an open offensive system well. This squad would get wrecked trying to play that way by all the other teams who play that way better.

You're not going to out Penguin the Penguins with this lineup. How is that so hard for you and your crowd to get? We showed last year however, you can out work those teams and the way to do it is a commitment to defense and responsible hockey.

I don't want us to "out penguin the penguins." The Penguins play a run and gun game because they can. They have the players on offense. However, look at their defensemen and try to tell me with a straight face they have more talent back there. They don't and it's not even close. Letang is good offensively, but no where close to McDonagh on the D side of the puck, and it's not like he's an Erik Karlsson. I want our D getting involved and moving the puck and jumping up for a return pass like the kid Krug did against us.

Some players (like Krug) just get it and do it and the coach allows them to do it. Some players need to be taught to do it. Do you really think Tortorella would allow his players to do that nevermind teach them how to do it??? Not a chance in hell. You see it in spurts with McDonagh, Moore and even MDZ, but they don't have the consistency with it because we don't have a coach that a) encourages them to do it all the time b) teaches them how to do it or even knows how it works, and c) allows our forwards to make that return pass back to them because its "East-West" hockey, not "North-South," and god forbid we don't connect on a pass, because no one should ever make mistakes.

All I'm saying is let's use our talented defensemen to our advantage. Are we getting enough out of them defensively? I don't think anyone can argue a yes to that. But we get little to nothing offensively, and we have players that have the tools, no matter what you THINK you see in a system under Tortorella. It's no coincidence that all offensive defensemen and PP specialists fail here. They're not playing to their strengths.

I like players individual IQ's being called out as if they're not playing the way coaches want them to. If the system allowed more creativity you'd have a better idea of these players actual hockey IQ. Everyone has bought in with the exception of Brassard who Torts himself said didn't seem to care about anything but playing his game, only guy to show his intelligence and creativity on offense. Richards is or at least has been a smart player, now he's dumb? Is it the water in the locker room or the system?

This. 100%.

A 3rd line player who breaks out with speed has a much better chance of making something happen than a 1st or 2nd line player who breaks out by just dumping the puck up the boards. The greatest players in this game would be hampered by the lack of speed that our breakout system imposes on them. That does not mean they could not still make things happen once they were in the offensive end but it does mean their production would be much better with a system that lets them breakout with speed.

This is another good point I don't think I have made yet. We play a lot of stop and go hockey. There's barely ever any flow to our game.

Agree to disagree, I suppose. Every championship team for as long as I can remember has had at least 2 elite talents at forward or defense. The Rangers have none. Their only elite player is Henrik Lundqvist. Nash could be up there, but these playoffs showed he has no mean streak and no real sense of urgency to up his compete level. I hope this changes.

I guess its just to much easier, as a fan, to buy into this notion that the team is just fine and they need to fire the coach and his system. Its a lot easier than the reality that this roster just simply isnt championship caliber.

Who on the Bruins was elite when they won the cup with the exception of Chara and Thomas? Bergeron was very good, but he's only entered the elite category in the past 2 years. Savard didn't play that year if I'm correct. Again, we had a player produce at a PPG clip during the playoffs. You don't need elite players during the playoffs, you need players that produce, whether they're regarded as "elite" or not. We had that in Brassard this past year. We have the depth on D when everyone is healthy. If Nash puts up more than one goal we could probably still be in the playoffs right now. Who knows.

Lundqvist is the ultimate equalizer. We should take advantage of him while we have him.

 

[Clown Fiesta]

That post wasnt even in reply to you. It was in reply to a poster who basically presented the argument that the entire dilemma is due to the coach and his system. You have every right to interject with your thin skin. Just like I have every right to think the line of thinking that the coaching/system problems outweigh the talent problems is a bunch of *********.

lol.

I know it wasn't in response to me, but it's still a pompous move and he said similar things to what I said. You made a generalization out of it. Just because people think the coach is to blame doesn't mean they are giving players a free pass and vice versa. You're pretty quick to jump to his defense and use expletives to try and get your point across, does that mean you have thin skin too?

 

[NHRangerfan]

Agree to disagree, I suppose. Every championship team for as long as I can remember has had at least 2 elite talents at forward or defense. The Rangers have none. Their only elite player is Henrik Lundqvist. Nash could be up there, but these playoffs showed he has no mean streak and no real sense of urgency to up his compete level. I hope this changes.

I guess its just to much easier, as a fan, to buy into this notion that the team is just fine and they need to fire the coach and his system. Its a lot easier than the reality that this roster just simply isnt championship caliber.

I won't speak for others but the coach deserves part of the blame...I've been asking this question in the Hank thread, was last season's record the outlier and is this team really a 6-8 team that they've been under Torts and part of that is the roster Sather has been given...

everything need not be an either/or proposition

You can't win consistently if your offensive game plan is to start at your own face-off dot...you hear Torts say it all the time we need to play below the hash marks in the O zone...the problem is they never get the puck to scoring areas. The Kreider OT winner was the perfect example, this team rarely drives to the net, because the other forward is always heading to the opposite corner for the dump around.

 

[Tawnos]

We saw flashes of some real offensive play from this team this year. Generating offense on the counterattack sometimes, and cycling deep others. The problem is that there has been no consistency to it, and in fact we've gone long stretches without seeing a glimmer of it at all. My favorite line of mine all season, when talking to other Ranger fans, is that there were times where it seemed like we would NEVER score a goal.

I don't think fixing these problems requires a major revamp of our system. I think it requires a few tweaks. I full expected to see some this year, but it never happened.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

I won't speak for others but the coach deserves part of the blame...I've been asking this question in the Hank thread, was last season's record the outlier and is this team really a 6-8 team that they've been under Torts and part of that is the roster Sather has been given...

everything need not be an either/or proposition

You can't win consistently if your offensive game plan is to start at your own face-off dot...you hear Torts say it all the time we need to play below the hash marks in the O zone...the problem is they never get the puck to scoring areas. The Kreider OT winner was the perfect example, this team rarely drives to the net, because the other forward is always heading to the opposite corner for the dump around.

Theres no doubt its both a system and a personnel problem. The crux of the issue is what do you think is MORE of a problem.

Even if you hate the system that got the team to the conference finals and their best finish in close to 20 years last season, I think its unfair to expect that same system to be implemented well during this shortened season that saw 2 major roster overhauls and no training camp. And I think its even more unfair to expect any coach to make drastic changes to a system dealing with those same things.

This is a team with no elite #1 center, no #1 LW, and no offensive defenseman. Is that a system problem????

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

EJ Hradek just called out Glen Sather hardcore on NHL Live lol. Was refreshing to hear.