All Encompassing Coaching and Glen Cigar Thread Part V

[haohmaru]

Agree to disagree, I suppose. Every championship team for as long as I can remember has had at least 2 elite talents at forward or defense. The Rangers have none. Their only elite player is Henrik Lundqvist. Nash could be up there, but these playoffs showed he has no mean streak and no real sense of urgency to up his compete level. I hope this changes.

I guess its just to much easier, as a fan, to buy into this notion that the team is just fine and they need to fire the coach and his system. Its a lot easier than the reality that this roster just simply isnt championship caliber.

Partially agree.

Nash is an elite talent and he clearly suffered from trying to do too much and probably not having enough playoff experience to really know what to expect and what kind of push it takes to keep going.

I think McD has a good chance to develop into an elite D in the next couple of years. Chara wasn't considered an elite D until his mid-late 20's.

Staal was sorely missed. As was Sauer. If that D corps (Sauer, Staal, McD, Girardi, MDZ, Stralman, Moore) had started the playoffs think of the difference that would've made.

My only comment about Tortorella is this: Sather needs to build the team around the coach and seems incapable of doing so. If anyone has to go, it's Sather, who keeps trying to put square players into round coach holes. Tortorella isn't the problem here.

 

[Tawnos]

EJ Hradek just called out Glen Sather hardcore on NHL Live lol. Was refreshing to hear.

What was his central criticism?

 

[Kel Varnsen]

Thanks Peter Piper! Love the alliteration!

Good to know someone appreciated it! The first two just flowed naturally and then rereading it I decided to see how long I could keep it going. The off-season sucks...

 

[haohmaru]

EJ Hradek just called out Glen Sather hardcore on NHL Live lol. Was refreshing to hear.

Why not present what Clement said in rebuttal, as well, to be fair?

"Tortorella is the 2nd best thing in the Rangers organization behind Lundqvist"

Oh, I guess that must've slipped your "refreshed" mind.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Anyone can play tight defensively responsible hockey. All it takes is commitment. Not everyone can play an open offensive system well. This squad would get wrecked trying to play that way by all the other teams who play that way better.

You're not going to out Penguin the Penguins with this lineup. How is that so hard for you and your crowd to get? We showed last year however, you can out work those teams and the way to do it is a commitment to defense and responsible hockey.

You do realise there is a midway point between playing a tight defensive shell and playing run and gun Penguins hockey, right? No one is suggesting playing firewagon hockey here.

This team does have the horse to open it up a bit. As a matter of fact, they have to open it up if they want to make the playoffs next year.

Yeesh, whether it's the pro-Torts or anti-Torts crowd, it's always a matter of extremes. No middle ground whatsoever.

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

What was his central criticism?

He brought up his terrible signings. They were talking about Torts and EJ said that Sather is at fault for the Rangers' failures, not Torts.

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

Why not present what Clement said in rebuttal, as well, to be fair?

"Tortorella is the 2nd best thing in the Rangers organization behind Lundqvist"

Oh, I guess that must've slipped your "refreshed" mind.

Well that's just crazy talk (Stepan/McDonagh/Nash >>>>>> Tortorella), although as I've said before, I actually do think Torts is a good coach. I just don't think his style is a fit for this team, and I'm very skeptical about Tortorella being able to adjust his system to fit the team, the guy is stubborn as a mule.

 

[haohmaru]

Well that's just crazy talk (Stepan/McDonagh/Nash >>>>>> Tortorella), although as I've said before, I actually do think Torts is a good coach. I just don't think his style is a fit for this team, and I'm very skeptical about Tortorella being able to adjust his system to fit the team, the guy is stubborn as a mule.

I think it's more Sather stubbornly getting the wrong players for Torts and his system. These two really need to collaborate on every acquisition. But, no, because that would make ****ing sense.

 

[Machinehead]

Theres no doubt its both a system and a personnel problem. The crux of the issue is what do you think is MORE of a problem.

Even if you hate the system that got the team to the conference finals and their best finish in close to 20 years last season, I think its unfair to expect that same system to be implemented well during this shortened season that saw 2 major roster overhauls and no training camp. And I think its even more unfair to expect any coach to make drastic changes to a system dealing with those same things.

This is a team with no elite #1 center, no #1 LW, and no offensive defenseman. Is that a system problem????

The Rangers have a defenseman with incredible hands, blinding speed, and a very accurate shot. He only put up 19 points this year. How does that happen?

I think it's more Sather stubbornly getting the wrong players for Torts and his system. These two really need to collaborate on every acquisition. But, no, because that would make ****ing sense.

You want Sather to get an entire team of players right for Torts and his system? How may Dan Girardis do you think there are in the league?

 

[haohmaru]

The Rangers have a defenseman with incredible hands, blinding speed, and a very accurate shot. He only put up 19 points this year. How does that happen?

Who is that?

 

[Machinehead]

Who is that?

Ryan McDonagh. We've all seen his talent. Why isn't he allowed more freedom? Why isn't he used on the powerplay?

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

Who is that?

McDonagh.

I actually agree with MH. McDonagh is truly a talented offensive player, but the D never get involved in the offense.

 

[Thirty One]

Ryan McDonagh. We've all seen his talent. Why isn't he allowed more freedom? Why isn't he used on the powerplay?

He stinks on the powerplay....

But seriously though, I don't think he's every going to be a good powerplayer.

 

[haohmaru]

Ryan McDonagh. We've all seen his talent. Why isn't he allowed more freedom? Why isn't he used on the powerplay?

Yeah, I referenced that a few posts ago - McD can, and will, develop into a much better join the rush/PP defenseman. No question. I think it's as much McD developing confidence in that aspect of his game as it is Tortorella giving him free reign. It'll happen. McD is just a kid.

Speaking of which, MDZ better spend the ENTIRE ****ING SUMMER hitting the net with slapshots from the point. The guy ALWAYS misses the net.

 

[Machinehead]

He stinks on the powerplay....

But seriously though, I don't think he's every going to be a good powerplayer.

Well he doesn't have a powerful shot. But you don't need one, you just need to get the damn thing towards the net. He does.

 

[3rd Guy High]

Well he doesn't have a powerful shot. But you don't need one, you just need to get the damn thing towards the net. He does.

This. Just get the shots there and let someone tip them.

He actually does have a very hard shot, he just sacrifices a lot of the power because he's always looking to shoot underneath a stick, inbetween someones legs, through traffic, etc etc.

Being able to do that is a lot more valuable than being able to unleash bombs into the other team's shin guards.

 

[adam94]

I love his system in a theoretical sense. It obviously won't always work, as we saw this year. Last year we simply had the perfect team for it.

Well that's just crazy talk (Stepan/McDonagh/Nash >>>>>> Tortorella), although as I've said before, I actually do think Torts is a good coach. I just don't think his style is a fit for this team, and I'm very skeptical about Tortorella being able to adjust his system to fit the team, the guy is stubborn as a mule.

I agree with this. We built a reputation last year, and he expected an exact replica this year. His expectations were not the problem; rather, he failed to adjust when things weren't clicking at first. Yes, Torts is a good coach. But a great coach will modify his gameplan according to each of his players' strengths and give them their best opportunity to succeed, rather than forcing them to play to the predetermined style he had in mind.

 

[NHRangerfan]

Theres no doubt its both a system and a personnel problem. The crux of the issue is what do you think is MORE of a problem.

Even if you hate the system that got the team to the conference finals and their best finish in close to 20 years last season, I think its unfair to expect that same system to be implemented well during this shortened season that saw 2 major roster overhauls and no training camp. And I think its even more unfair to expect any coach to make drastic changes to a system dealing with those same things.

This is a team with no elite #1 center, no #1 LW, and no offensive defenseman. Is that a system problem????

I'm not disagreeing with you, last season the team had no offensive dman either and really no #1 center since Richards had a meh season until the playoffs last year...which team do we see next year? The #1 in the East or the #6?

 

[NHRangerfan]

Partially agree.

Nash is an elite talent and he clearly suffered from trying to do too much and probably not having enough playoff experience to really know what to expect and what kind of push it takes to keep going.

I think McD has a good chance to develop into an elite D in the next couple of years. Chara wasn't considered an elite D until his mid-late 20's.

Staal was sorely missed. As was Sauer. If that D corps (Sauer, Staal, McD, Girardi, MDZ, Stralman, Moore) had started the playoffs think of the difference that would've made.

My only comment about Tortorella is this: Sather needs to build the team around the coach and seems incapable of doing so. If anyone has to go, it's Sather, who keeps trying to put square players into round coach holes. Tortorella isn't the problem here.

Both the GM and Coach need to do a better job...if Sather isn't getting Tort's guys, Torts needs to adjust to the players he's given.

 

[NHRangerfan]

Ryan McDonagh. We've all seen his talent. Why isn't he allowed more freedom? Why isn't he used on the powerplay?

I don't think you can play as many tough minutes as McD does and get fully involved in the offense over a full season, he certainly wasn't shy about jumping up on the rush in the PO's, I think he has more offensive upside the MDZ.

 

[Kel Varnsen]

Well that's just crazy talk (Stepan/McDonagh/Nash >>>>>> Tortorella), although as I've said before, I actually do think Torts is a good coach. I just don't think his style is a fit for this team, and I'm very skeptical about Tortorella being able to adjust his system to fit the team, the guy is stubborn as a mule.

Don't sully McD's and Stepan's good names by including Nash in that group

And no, until the collective talent of our skaters gets significantly better the coach is more important than any one man.

 

[nyranger61494]

Well that's just crazy talk (Stepan/McDonagh/Nash >>>>>> Tortorella), although as I've said before, I actually do think Torts is a good coach. I just don't think his style is a fit for this team, and I'm very skeptical about Tortorella being able to adjust his system to fit the team, the guy is stubborn as a mule.

I like Torts more than I hate him. He definitely has his shortcomings. My question (and I am not trying to be snarky, so please don't take it as such) is hasn't he changed his system before? In Tampa, people (Torts detractors) talk about the fact that they did not play this kind of style. So, at some point, he made an adjustment, right? So, I am asking, has he actually changed his system in the past? He certainly did not do his best coaching job this year and adjust as much as I and others wanted but over the course of his stint with the Rangers, has he really had horses? His first full season, the Rangers' best line down the stretch of the regular season was Shelley, Anisimov and Prust. Erik Christensen and Wojtek Wolski were given considerable roles in 2011.

He certainly had skill (on paper) this season that led you to believe grinding every game out would not be a necessity. However, IMO Gaborik and Richards failed to perform and allow that to be debatable. Certainly, people can argue the other side and that Torts' system was what caused that. There is so much about this year that's out of whack and makes it hard to truly assess. I am willing to give him benefit of the doubt. He has gotten his teams to play hard and not quit. I am not sure he has gotten the most out of them, but he has come damn close. Adjustments need to be made on the PP, with certain aspects of his philosophy and the coaching staff. Let's see what a full camp and season can bring.

 

[Kershaw]

Ryan McDonagh. We've all seen his talent. Why isn't he allowed more freedom? Why isn't he used on the powerplay?

I don't really see the offensive hockey sense in him to see him being utilized as an offensive defenseman. He is what he is, a 20-35 pt defenensive d-man with fair production at ES.

This was his production in college hockey/AHL:

2007-08 University of Wisconsin Badgers 40 GP 5g 7a 12pts
2008-09 University of Wisconsin Badgers 36 GP 5g 11a 16pts
2009-10 University of Wisconsin Badgers 43 GP 4g 14a 18pts
2010-11 Connecticut Whalers 38 GP 1g 7a 8pts

There is nothing in his game to suggest he has high end offensive potential IMO. He's never put up major point totals at any level. I don't understand how Torts is holding him back. Tortorella hockey helped elevate McDonagh from a throw-in prospect into a system he thrives in as the team's #1 overall defenseman.

 

[stan the caddy]

McDonagh is a really great skater but that doesn't make him an offensive player. There might be potential but he's not there yet.

 

[NHRangerfan]

I don't really see the offensive hockey sense in him to see him being utilized as an offensive defenseman. He is what he is, a 20-35 pt defenensive d-man with fair production at ES.

This was his production in college hockey/AHL:



There is nothing in his game to suggest he has high end offensive potential IMO. He's never put up major point totals at any level. I don't understand how Torts is holding him back. Tortorella hockey helped elevate McDonagh from a throw-in prospect into a system he thrives in as the team's #1 overall defenseman.

12th overall pick still in college is considered a throw in?

McD had 2 less points than our "offensive" dman MDZ this season and he did that with :38 pp/toi/g vs MDZ's 2:54pp/toi/g

McD is a better skater than MDZ and would not be a stretch to say he could outpoint MDZ if the PP/TOI were switched.