All Encompassing Coaching and Glen Cigar Thread Part V

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The above post gets it.

If we don't have the best goalie on Earth, we probably only make the playoffs last year.

He needs to go ASAP. How anyone can not see that, at this point, is mind-boggling. And I am/was a HUGE Torts fan.

Trying to stay level headed with Torts. His passion and commitment is admirable. His system and in-game adjustments are really lacking and this team needs a new voice coming at them. It's time to change the coach 'cause the players are much better than the result we are getting.

Agree with everything being said about our team without Hank. We are probably in the lottery discussion with an average goalie.

Eminger cannot be back next year. MDZ for the right price should be dealt. He has talent but plays lazy and shows intensity only in spurts. And his skating (although strong in tight quarters) is not good enough for an offensive defenseman. We cannot have two 4th lines. As long as Torts is here, his type of players will man the 3rd line which means no scoring from the bottom 6. You need more balance in this league.

Time for Torts to go.
 
If Torts is going to get fired then Sather should go too. He's had enough chances to build a championship team and he's hired his fair share of coaches.
 
Part of it IS the coaching staff.
Part of it IS the GM.
Part of it IS the players.

Everyone should be on the hook here.



Edit: Is it just me, or does this MustarddTiger fella sound exactly like Torts?

He sounds like one of the few rational people who recognize winning in sports isn't always as simple as "fire the coach".
 
My message to defenders of Torts:

I vehemently disagree with you about Torts. You gotta get off is bandwagon! Mgmt needs to understand he must go, and his arrogant posture that he is so right about his philosophy and treatment of players must simply, bend, buckle and break, before what is sane and correct, before players who should be fairly treated like human beings, not embarrassed in public like Hagelin (regardless of how he performs w/this one as opposed to that one on the power play), and most of all before the fans, who are entitled to better.

This (*^*%*)@@) system does NOT work as a regular methodology in place full time. We get out of position blocking so many shots, which causes us to work harder and recover; we have too many blocked shots taken; we do not spend enough time with the puck at the other end; the offensive is too predictable with constant dump and chase. All of these things result in a club that overworks is more and more exhausted as it goes deeper and deeper in post season, to which, we cannot use our perceived shoot out advantage.

And the proof is clear. Last year's full season, we were totally exhausted; this year we again needed 7 games to advance, if we get together vs. Boston, we will need another 7. Of course we are more and more of a mess as we get closer to the cup vs. opponents likely to be more rested than we are.

Finally, there is no frigggin excuse for the way Kreider was wasted this year. Another whole ELC! And why? because Torts has to break him.

Screw you, you (*%^$), for lack of more vulgar vernacular!

You let a guy like Kreider get his max minutes, preferably up here, and have him learn on the job, with encouragement, not get into his brain and make him think a gazillion times before he does anything! Kredier is a special talent.

I could go on but the real world beckons.

We have a good enough core.
Moves are needed.
#1 is buh bye Torts!
 
If Torts is going to get fired then Sather should go too. He's had enough chances to build a championship team and he's hired his fair share of coaches.

I am not a fan of Sather but I doubt he is going anywhere. As far as hiring a new coach lots of people mention that Sather hasn't done a good job of that either. But it is fair to point out that he has only hired two coaches since 2004 when this semi-rebuilding started. I would like to hope that some of his assistants like Gorton or Messier, might be able to help him hire a solid coach and avoid repeats of Lowe, Trotier or what would likely be another one in that mold of Ruff.
 
My message to defenders of Torts:

I vehemently disagree with you about Torts. You gotta get off is bandwagon! Mgmt needs to understand he must go, and his arrogant posture that he is so right about his philosophy and treatment of players must simply, bend, buckle and break, before what is sane and correct, before players who should be fairly treated like human beings, not embarrassed in public like Hagelin (regardless of how he performs w/this one as opposed to that one on the power play), and most of all before the fans, who are entitled to better.

This (*^*%*)@@) system does NOT work as a regular methodology in place full time. We get out of position blocking so many shots, which causes us to work harder and recover; we have too many blocked shots taken; we do not spend enough time with the puck at the other end; the offensive is too predictable with constant dump and chase. All of these things result in a club that overworks is more and more exhausted as it goes deeper and deeper in post season, to which, we cannot use our perceived shoot out advantage.

And the proof is clear. Last year's full season, we were totally exhausted; this year we again needed 7 games to advance, if we get together vs. Boston, we will need another 7. Of course we are more and more of a mess as we get closer to the cup vs. opponents likely to be more rested than we are.

Finally, there is no frigggin excuse for the way Kreider was wasted this year. Another whole ELC! And why? because Torts has to break him.

Screw you, you (*%^$), for lack of more vulgar vernacular!

You let a guy like Kreider get his max minutes, preferably up here, and have him learn on the job, with encouragement, not get into his brain and make him think a gazillion times before he does anything! Kredier is a special talent.

I could go on but the real world beckons.

We have a good enough core.
Moves are needed.
#1 is buh bye Torts!

Last year's playoff "struggles" still almost resulted in a stanley cup finals appearance, and that was all with our 40 goal scorer playing missing an arm.
 
Playoffs with Tortorella:

'13: 2.1 goals/game - 5.3% PP
'12: 2.15 goals/game - 17.8% PP (Hey now!)
'11: 1.6 goals/game - 5% PP
'10: Ollie Jokinen'd
'09: 1.57 goals/game - 12.9% PP

In the final game of 2009, here are the players who are on the roster also today:

Lundqvist, Callahan, Girardi, Staal.

The roster has been turned over to resemble a complete stranger, yet the MO of the team is the same. This coach is a problem.
 
Last year's playoff "struggles" still almost resulted in a stanley cup finals appearance, and that was all with our 40 goal scorer playing missing an arm.

What does that have to do with NOW ?

Nothing !

This team has not dominated one playoff series, not a one. Yet you think we are close some how cause of ONE good run.

Get over it already, look at teams that make the conf finals the last ten years, how many repeated that feat ??

He has to go, I bet the players make a stand, too much Torts is no good for anyone.
 
Playoffs with Tortorella:

'13: 2.1 goals/game - 5.3% PP
'12: 2.15 goals/game - 17.8% PP (Hey now!)
'11: 1.6 goals/game - 5% PP
'10: Ollie Jokinen'd
'09: 1.57 goals/game - 12.9% PP

In the final game of 2009, here are the players who are on the roster also today:

Lundqvist, Callahan, Girardi, Staal.

The roster has been turned over to resemble a complete stranger, yet the MO of the team is the same. This coach is a problem.

So last year was the anomaly? How can that be? Torts is the best coach ever, he won a stanley cup in Tampa a few years ago, and almost got to the SCF last year. :sarcasm:
 
So last year was the anomaly? How can that be? Torts is the best coach ever, he won a stanley cup in Tampa a few years ago, and almost got to the SCF last year. :sarcasm:

My favorite line from Torts supporters. Some of them really need to go back and watch those series again. The Rangers success in the playoffs last season was all Lundqvist. All of it.

Had a bounce gone the other way in the Ottawa series, and the Rangers were bumped in round 1 instead of winning in 7, would this discussion even be taking place? Nope. Torts would be long gone.

Yet, it is counterproductive to meddle in "ifs"

I don't want him to, but count me as someone who thinks Torts gets at least half the season next year. Oh well.
 
What does that have to do with NOW ?

Nothing !

This team has not dominated one playoff series, not a one. Yet you think we are close some how cause of ONE good run.

Get over it already, look at teams that make the conf finals the last ten years, how many repeated that feat ??

He has to go, I bet the players make a stand, too much Torts is no good for anyone.

or he has to hire an offensive assistant.
 
I am not a fan of Sather but I doubt he is going anywhere. As far as hiring a new coach lots of people mention that Sather hasn't done a good job of that either. But it is fair to point out that he has only hired two coaches since 2004 when this semi-rebuilding started. I would like to hope that some of his assistants like Gorton or Messier, might be able to help him hire a solid coach and avoid repeats of Lowe, Trotier or what would likely be another one in that mold of Ruff.

I don't think Sather's going anywhere either, Dolan loves him. In Tortorella's defense, he's basically one of the most succesful coaches the Rangers have ever had. Sather's been around since 2000 and he's never put a team together that is a true favorite to win the cup. Can't say he hasn't had the resources. We were all excited at the Rangers at the beginning of the season but realistically we were never better than the Bruins or Penguins. Even if the Rangers got through this series they were destined to get the **** kicked out of them by Pittsburgh.

Add a better coach, which may not even be possible, and the Rangers still aren't the best team in the East.
 
What is the Over/Under on how many hours it takes for Torts to be fired following their elimination this series?
 
I love this argument. Adapt = winning

Could you explain how he needs to adapt? "he needs to win"

No specifics, not entirely understanding what you're seeing, but you know it makes you feel :(

Consider this, the simplest thing I'm seeing. Analysts galore seem to be shocked that opposing teams defensemen are running all over the Rangers in the offensive zone. This is because the system in place right now is to give opposing teams d-men time and space. Crawl out to the top of the faceoff circle, and block the shot. First goal that Lundqvist gave up last night, he was screened by four players and Boychuk had about a minute to line up his shot.

I don't know why the team isn't playing Krug like they were playing Karlsson in the Ottawa series last year. Should've been the mission after game one to rock him every chance you get. During play, after the whistle, rough him up. Boyle was a man on a mission vs. Karlsson against Ottawa. What's Boyle, nay - the whole team, doing now? Krug has all day. Green had all day.

Adjustment #1: Pressure opposition D-men.

Safe is safe.

EDIT - Oh, and if you're going to collapse five in front of Lundqvist, maybe try clearing a rebound one of these days?

1044-2.jpg
 
Exactly ... That shows though, it's not the coach... Team just isn't what it was last year, bottom line. And as far as the problems we had last year? We still are getting beat by superior 4th lines. Seems to be our achilles heal. We can handle team's top couple lines well. Those fourth lines though....

As i agree with us not being able to handle teams with 4 good lines running, i think 95% of this teams problem is offense. A good offense has good possession time which eliminates opportunities for the other teams offense. We have what i call "Beer league offense", the big rush down, 1 shot on goal from the point, then back to defense.

All in all, we simply arent the same roster as last time. The grinding, dump/chase game just isnt working for this roster. We have more offensive talent than we did last year.
 
All in all, we simply arent the same roster as last time. The grinding, dump/chase game just isnt working for this roster. We have more offensive talent than we did last year.

And we are worse on offense.
 
As i agree with us not being able to handle teams with 4 good lines running, i think 95% of this teams problem is offense. A good offense has good possession time which eliminates opportunities for the other teams offense. We have what i call "Beer league offense", the big rush down, 1 shot on goal from the point, then back to defense.

All in all, we simply arent the same roster as last time. The grinding, dump/chase game just isnt working for this roster. We have more offensive talent than we did last year.

Yep. And great coaches show humility, admit their system isn't working, and they ADAPT and find ways to alter it so it works better with this roster. You can't change 23 roster players over the course of a season. You can change 1 coach.

Torts is a stubborn mule. His word is law. He knows best and for a few posters here that is because he won a stanley cup....even though it was NINE YEARS AGO. NINE. As in before the CBA expired, the two line pass rule was still in tact, the offensive zones were smaller, there was no trapezoid, and there was more clutching and grabbing which all caters to a dump and chase, grind it out game. Torts is still coaching in the past. He never changed. The game did, but he didn't.

And you know what I would've been happy with Torts if he hired a PP specialist and it didn't work out just because he TRIED to do something different. Just because it would've been him admitting he is not an offensive and creative coach. That is what today's NHL lives for. That's what the commissioner and the league wanted, a more open game. Instead we try and play the opposite. And we try and do it with personnel that simply don't play the way Torts expects them to. The way they need to play to help Torts system flourish. Pyatt, Nash, Powe, and even Dorsett and Brassard do not go down and block shots. Yeah on a rare occasion Powe does. Rare occasion. They are not Dubi, Feds, Prust, Mitchell, and even Anisimov. Torts had a say in who they added. If anyone here is going to be naive and ignore that then don't bother posting. Sather did not just hand him players and say figure it the **** out. No, not this year. Maybe Sather was doing that to him when he first took over. But not now. Over the past two years the roster has been molded by what Torts wants.

Someone brought up a good point that there are only 4 players remaining from the 2009 playoff roster. Torts got what he wanted, its just these players don't fit his system. And yet it's the players fault. 23 people should adapt to 1 man rather than 1 man adapting to 23 people. Coaching to their strengths and weaknesses. Nope if you have a weakness with Torts you get no ice time or demoted. There is no room for leniency. Not on this highway to hell. And I didn't care about his attitude with the media and press conferences. He shouldn't have to answer those people. HOWEVER, that's who he is and that translates into his coaching. He is egocentric. He is stubborn. He is unwilling to change. This organization had the right players last year that fit his system enough to make 1st place in the East. However, all year long the team struggled to score PP goals and score goals period. It caught up with them in the playoffs when the competition stiffened. Lundqvist got them through two rounds.
 
wow

Playoffs with Tortorella:

'13: 2.1 goals/game - 5.3% PP
'12: 2.15 goals/game - 17.8% PP (Hey now!)
'11: 1.6 goals/game - 5% PP
'10: Ollie Jokinen'd
'09: 1.57 goals/game - 12.9% PP

In the final game of 2009, here are the players who are on the roster also today:

Lundqvist, Callahan, Girardi, Staal.

The roster has been turned over to resemble a complete stranger, yet the MO of the team is the same. This coach is a problem.


This is shocking to look at. For a team to not be able to score more than 2 goals per game or have an even average PP in the playoffs...there is just no way to win the Cup with those numbers.

Out of the 8 remaining playoff teams, this is how they rank in Goals For:
Pitt - 3.78
Ottawa - 3.25
Boston - 3.2
Chicago - 2.88
San Jose - 2.75
Detroit - 2.6

NYR - 2.1
LA - 2.0


Thats really sad to see. Clearly we cannot score like Pitt. But to be in the bottom 2, and .5 below the 6th place team in this category, thats not going to get you anywhere.

Now lets look at our PP out of thoe 8 remaining teams:
Pitt - 27%
SJ - 25%
LA - 22.2%
OTT - 20%
DET - 16.2%
BOS - 16%
CHI - 13.6%

NYR - 5.3%

So the PP is making things a lot worse for us. LA might be a little behind us in Goals For but at least their PP is producing at a nice pace (22.2%) so they know they can always come back in a game if they get some PP time. We don't have that option...in fact we lose momentum on our PP cause its so bad!

I've defended Torts long enough...when your players look totally lost on the PP, the coach has to take some of the responsibility!
 
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