Post-Game Talk: #6 - 01/26/21 | RANGERS @ sabres

[Edge]

The pass from Kreider to Kakko on the 2 on 1 also comes to mind. Like that needs to be tape-to-tape when you have that much time and space. Kakko would have buried that.

Exactly --- and that's a big part of how the veterans can and need to be helping the younger players. It's not just about tone, it also impacts results as well.

It also speaks to what I'm saying when I refer to these kids getting opportunities and not looking lost out there. Think about, that shot gets buried, or the one that went wide against the Devils goes in, and suddenly you're talking about Kakko having four goals in 6 games.

If Laf gets another couple of inches on two scoring chances, he has 2 goals in 6 games.

Now I get it, we don't get credit for could've and should've. But it does support the point that these kids are right in the mix, with a decent amount of consistency given their ages and experience levels.

Of course we want more. We want and need those pucks to go in. But there's no indication that they won't.

The forward group I've been most impressed with includes a pair of 19 year old wings, a 22 year old center, and a 21 year old center. On defense it includes a recently turned 21 year old and a pair of 22 year olds.

That's nothing to sneeze at.

 

[Ruggs225]

Who is taking Trouba's place?

Why is Panarin excused but Kreider and ZBad not? Why the double standard? Hmmm.......Panarin gets a free ride, but Krieder and ZBad should be scratched.

because panarin is panarin. And is still leading the team with points. But he can sit him for a shidt or two to send a message. And probably should have.

zbad i said should have sat bc he clearly is injured. He cannot possibly be that bad if not injured. No way he would have lost all of his skill and ability to shoot a puck.

kreider, he needs a benching to light a fire under his ass. Which he always did. He drifts game to game. And he is completely replaceable.

trouba could have been sat for a period like he does with ADA when he makes bonheaded plays. I do agree that there is no way to keep him out a game.

 

[duhmetreE]

We bought this guy out over the summer.

Lundqvist was not only an all time great on the ice but all we’ve ever heard of him off the ice is how far he works, how much he competes, how serious he takes his preparation.

Remember over the summer we had some posters on here talking about rumors of Tony D apparently saying everyone didn’t like Lundqvist or something like that? Yeah.

So you replace the hardest worker in the league who expects greatness and will do everything he can do achieve it with a room full of kids that apparently features some guys who would snicker at someone who thinks like that. Talk about immature.

I'll say it again.

We played our best with Smith in the lineup.

We looked like absolute dog shit when he's been in the press box.

Maybe we should keep him in over the ECHL talent?

Player management is a part of coaching. This is inarguable at this point. Quinn deserves an 'F' for his personnel management.

 

[haveandare]

And the team literally has stopped performing

they’re out coached they’re undisciplined can’t protect leads come out flat and special teams is terrible.

Stopped for the one game last night, or the two before where they handily carried the play and couldn’t get a routine save when they needed it?

 

[kovazub94]

I suspect two things:

1. Not getting those 4 wins deflated them a bit, and they thought Buffalo was going to be an easier time. When it wasn't, they shut down.

2. If we win those 4 games, and sit at a 4-2 record, it also probably changes the way we interpret how close to the edge we are.

Finding a balance is always a challenge. It's easy to get too high or too low on a team and that leads to a yo-yo effect.

This team has some positives, and it has some negatives. And that's what the transition period was also going to bring --- though one obviously would've hoped for different outcomes as a result of the positive.

Yeah, a big part is definitely mental but if they took Buffalo for granted - it was a completely wrong approach for a team with 1-3-1 record and quickly falling behind. Should've been more of a must-win and this was the most disappointing that they didn't step-up emotionally.

Edit: Prior to this game I felt Quinn was completely safe at least until after the season but if the team started for whatever reason - and will continue - to shut him out then I don't feel as confident.

 

[kovazub94]

according to this logic if you have good players a coach would never get fired.

when the collective group looks like shit for long enough and it’s CLEAR your team is always the least structured and disciplined team on the ice it’s not rocket science

Team played well overall except for the last game. Your assertion would make sense if it wasn't just the last game where it couldn't all be assigned to players not being in ready without preseason.

 

[Glen Sathers Cigar]

This is fairy tale stuff. No C on a players chest is going to change how badly the coach coaches them.

Maybe not the C on someone’s chest but there does seem to be something missing. Maybe someone not being named captain is holding their leadership back or how the group feels about their leaders in general? What is beyond doubt is that there is clearly a failure of the veteran leadership group going on.

It doesn’t surprise me honestly, look at the 4 captains:

Kreider - introspective type. Works super hard off the ice but often struggles with consistency so he can get in his own head

Zibanejad - extremely quiet type who would lead by example

Panarin- great player but also seems like a lead by example only type

Trouba- has struggled virtually his whole time in NY, gotta be hard to be a leader when you’re out there sucking half the time


Aside from it being your two best forwards, your longest tenured player and your highest paid D (yuck) which seems like on paper should be your leaders it just seems like when you look at who these guys actually are that something is missing leadership wise.

I don’t see a guy on this team right now who despises losing and fully expects greatness every night.

And that comes from Quinn too. Lots of downplaying failure and making excuses. That infects the minds of his players. He said last night that after Buffalo tied the game the group was really dejected. Wtf is that? To be tied 2-2 halfway through the game?

 

[kovazub94]

We're watching two different games. A puck jumping over your stick is not a reason to put JJ back in. Smith is LIGHT YEARS BETTER than JJ.

You're defending Quinn and contorting things to fit the narrative. ADA was and still is PPQB1. You dont lose that title when you take an 'emotional' penalty.

He also has the best 'analytics' of the defenseman... but that only counts if we like the player.

'It sounds like JJ is a good teammate' ? We know Smith is a good teammate and leader. He's been in the pressbox with Game1 and yesterdays game... you know what those games have in common? Horrendous effort/engagement. Maybe Smith should be playing instead of an ECHL talent. Maybe if he's there we dont play with this shit effort? possible? maybe worth looking into

P.S. - Shesterkin is the bonafide #1. YOU RIDE HIM AND GIVE HIM EVERY CHANCE TO REBOUND

Quinns personnel management is as bad as it gets. Completely out of touch

Speaking of contorting:

Smith is nowhere near LIGHT YEARS BETTER than JJ, at least not in game this season

ADA played like shit too and seeing how this board is all about fair role assignments - this is where Fox outplayed ADA by LIGHT YEARS and would, accordingly, "deserve" to be PP1QB?

 

[Kovalev27]

Team played well overall except for the last game. Your assertion would make sense if it wasn't just the last game where it couldn't all be assigned to players not being in ready without preseason.

I don’t think they played all that well. They got doors blown off in game one. Threw a ton of low danger shots at the devils after falling behind 3-1. Playing catch up isn’t playing well.

Blew a 2 goal lead in Pitt showing they can’t do too others what’s done to them constantly.

they were ok in the second Pitt game shesterkin blew that one.

and horrible last night.

so this is good? Their special teams are garbage. This isn’t playing good

 

[duhmetreE]

Speaking of contorting:

Smith is nowhere near LIGHT YEARS BETTER than JJ, at least not in game this season

ADA played like shit too and seeing how this board is all about fair role assignments - this is where Fox outplayed ADA by LIGHT YEARS and would, accordingly, "deserve" to be PP1QB?

We're watching two different games then. Smith is unequivocally better than JJ. The team plays better with Smith. He passes the eye test and he's scorching the analytics test. I do not expect him to be a top defenseman. IMO There's a stigma attached to Smith and everyone looks at him with a preconceived notion. Same with Trouba, neglect all the good things they do and just magnify the negative. They are not perfect players but they are no where near the level of bad that is JJ.

This is on Gorton, JD, Martin as much as Quinn. This guy does not belong on a NHL roster.

 

[True Blue]

You can't scratch enough people who deserve it without activating the entire taxi squad

Panarin, Zibanejad, Strome, Trouba, ADA, Johnson, Kreider have all stunk.

Like I said, the vets have been terrible. But even with all that, if the goalies simply played mediocre, the team would be 4-2.

 

[kovazub94]

This is in no way advocating for JJ -- whom I cannot stand. But I believe this is the way the coaches are looking at it:

Go with JJ and you get a D who is usually in the right spot, but just can't do much other than that. Super tentative, super slow in his reads and with his stick. Tends to fumble the puck a lot.

Go with BS and you get a D who has decent size, wheels and can play physical but far too often has rocks between his ears. Just runs around way too much. Is often out of position.

As far as breakout passes I think Smith has a slight advantage. But not by leaps and bounds.

The real thing to do here is upgrade away from this paradigm. It shouldn't be JJ or BS. It should be someone else. Anyone else. Bitetto, Robertson, Hajek, a traffic cone, suiting up Jacques Martin. Literally anything else.

Sum total is that overall there's really minimal impact on the results whether it's JJ over Smith or vice versa.

 

[True Blue]

Yes, if the entire work force is under performing, which rarely happens, the team leader/manager/coach gets the heat or replaced. In this case the talent is irreplaceable or a lot harder to replace. Quinn is not.

The entire workforce is not underperforming. It's leaders are.

If game1 and last nights game is not a bad environment, I don't know what is. Thats not a good environment for the kids to learn in.

That is two out of 6 games

Yes, the entire team needs to be better but I do not understand how it's not the coachings staffs issue.

Some things are. Things like Panarin not playing well are not.

 

[will1066]

Speaking of contorting:

Smith is nowhere near LIGHT YEARS BETTER than JJ, at least not in game this season

ADA played like shit too and seeing how this board is all about fair role assignments - this is where Fox outplayed ADA by LIGHT YEARS and would, accordingly, "deserve" to be PP1QB?

The revisionist view of Smith is alive and well. I do agree that he's a better choice than Johnson, but not too long ago, the pitchforks were ready to skewer him.

 

[True Blue]

ADA has played like shit too.

A case of too many people playing too poorly to remember them all

 

[Fitzy]

Like I said, the vets have been terrible. But even with all that, if the goalies simply played mediocre, the team would be 4-2.

That's fair. It's certainly hard to win hockey games in this era with a save percentage under .900

If Shesty can turn it around and play .930 hockey the rest of the way it would do wonders.

 

[will1066]

Maybe not the C on someone’s chest but there does seem to be something missing. Maybe someone not being named captain is holding their leadership back or how the group feels about their leaders in general? What is beyond doubt is that there is clearly a failure of the veteran leadership group going on.

It doesn’t surprise me honestly, look at the 4 captains:

Kreider - introspective type. Works super hard off the ice but often struggles with consistency so he can get in his own head

Zibanejad - extremely quiet type who would lead by example

Panarin- great player but also seems like a lead by example only type

Trouba- has struggled virtually his whole time in NY, gotta be hard to be a leader when you’re out there sucking half the time


Aside from it being your two best forwards, your longest tenured player and your highest paid D (yuck) which seems like on paper should be your leaders it just seems like when you look at who these guys actually are that something is missing leadership wise.

I don’t see a guy on this team right now who despises losing and fully expects greatness every night.

And that comes from Quinn too. Lots of downplaying failure and making excuses. That infects the minds of his players. He said last night that after Buffalo tied the game the group was really dejected. Wtf is that? To be tied 2-2 halfway through the game?

Panarin doesn't even speak English. I mean, I'm joking mostly, but I'd wager that he got the "A" for his leading by example on ice vs. in the dressing room.

 

[True Blue]

because panarin is panarin. And is still leading the team with points. But he can sit him for a shidt or two to send a message. And probably should have.

zbad i said should have sat bc he clearly is injured. He cannot possibly be that bad if not injured. No way he would have lost all of his skill and ability to shoot a puck.

kreider, he needs a benching to light a fire under his ass. Which he always did. He drifts game to game. And he is completely replaceable.

trouba could have been sat for a period like he does with ADA when he makes bonheaded plays. I do agree that there is no way to keep him out a game.

Oh, so accountability is selective when a coach you do not like is doing it, but completely normative when you decide how it should done.

 

[kovazub94]

You can't scratch enough people who deserve it without activating the entire taxi squad

Panarin, Zibanejad, Strome, Trouba, ADA, Johnson, Kreider have all stunk.

Completely agree but I think someone needs to be made example out of who's considered one of the vets. I don't want it to be Zibanejad or Panarin. Strome would've been my choice but with Chytil's injury - it's out of question. ADA has sat already. IMO it leaves Kreider or Trouba.

 

[True Blue]

The revisionist view of Smith is alive and well. I do agree that he's a better choice than Johnson, but not too long ago, the pitchforks were ready to skewer him.

Just wait until Smith gets in for a prolonged period of time

 

[True Blue]

Completely agree but I think someone needs to be made example out of who's considered one of the vets. I don't want it to be Zibanejad or Panarin. Strome would've been my choice but with Chytil's injury - it's out of question. ADA has sat already. IMO it leaves Kreider or Trouba.

Agree with this as well. Unfortunately, until Chytil is back and healthy, Quinn has no choice but to stay with Strome.

 

[kovazub94]

We're watching two different games then. Smith is unequivocally better than JJ. The team plays better with Smith. He passes the eye test and he's scorching the analytics test. I do not expect him to be a top defenseman. IMO There's a stigma attached to Smith and everyone looks at him with a preconceived notion. Same with Trouba, neglect all the good things they do and just magnify the negative. They are not perfect players but they are no where near the level of bad that is JJ.

This is on Gorton, JD, Martin as much as Quinn. This guy does not belong on a NHL roster.

We definitely do watch different games then because even if Smith has played better - it's been by a miniscule margin, unless there's a prism of bias when assessing them.

 

[Fitzy]

Completely agree but I think someone needs to be made example out of who's considered one of the vets. I don't want it to be Zibanejad or Panarin. Strome would've been my choice but with Chytil's injury - it's out of question. ADA has sat already. IMO it leaves Kreider or Trouba.

I would be on board with benching Trouba for a game.

That said, I'm a bit worried that he isn't the 25 minute a game #1 defenseman we hoped he would be.

There aren't many good NHL teams that don't have one 'all situations' blueliner, who plays both the PP and PK and gets the hardest matchups. The reality is that Fox is closer to that rn than Trouba

 

[duhmetreE]

The entire workforce is not underperforming. It's leaders are.

Are these 'leaders' put in position to succeed? You clearly believe they are. I do not. It ends there.

That is two out of 6 games

Yeah, a third of the games is not bad for the kids. Hopefully the shit doesn't stick to their skates. Being punished for something while our 'leaders' to the same thing and it goes un noticed should harbor positive feelings.

Some things are. Things like Panarin not playing well are not.

Yeah, Panarin should be playing much better with Strome and Blackwell. How can he not be producing? I dont know what's gotten into him. He should be scorching on our well oiled machine of a PP. Or how disciplined and systematic we are in our zone entries. He should have at least 12 pts.

In reality, re-watch when Panarin gets the puck... he literally has no where to go with it. He's smothered.

We're seeing symptoms of the problem. The problem is coaching ( with a big chunk of embarrasingly bad personnel managemnt. )

 

[Edge]

Yeah, a big part is definitely mental but if they took Buffalo for granted - it was a completely wrong approach for a team with 1-3-1 record and quickly falling behind. Should've been more of a must-win and this was the most disappointing that they didn't step-up emotionally.

Edit: Prior to this game I felt Quinn was completely safe at least until after the season but if the team started for whatever reason - and will continue - to shut him out then it don't feel as confident.

Agreed --- and how (or if) they use it as a teachable moment is going to be very important.

There's no getting around that last game was a total let-down and unacceptable.