Post-Game Talk: #6 - 01/26/21 | RANGERS @ sabres

[haveandare]

according to this logic if you have good players a coach would never get fired.

when the collective group looks like shit for long enough and it’s CLEAR your team is always the least structured and disciplined team on the ice it’s not rocket science

How do you figure? Coaches get fired when the team stops performing, not based on whether a few individual players show up to start the season or not.

But they don’t look bad as a group - they’ve outplayed the other team every game but 2. Certain key players look very bad as individuals and it’s costing games. If Panarin or Mika or Strome or either goalie looked even average, the record would be very different.

 

[will1066]

Coming out flat, I blame the coach. This team had the same problem under AV. But a lot of what's ailing them this year seems to be more about the guys you need and expect to perform, simply haven't. I'm assuming this is the same system that saw Panarin and Zib have monster seasons last year.

Last night they didn't come out flat, though. Other games, yes, but they were solid in the opening minutes.

Between Quinn as a coach and the systems, it's likely something in between. Quinn gives his vets a lot of rope. They're his "horses" and he wants to ride them for as long as possible to let them work out of their funks. He can't treat them like the kids. He's gotta respect them for him to get respect back. He is giving them leeway on offensive creativity, and I suspect those guys have a lot of say about the power play and how they want to do it. You can't be a coach in this league without a system. There's no way. The problem is probably those vets, in trying to be creative offensively, is breaking down that system, with them becoming out of position and not knowing how to reorganize when an offensive play doesn't work.

 

[Kovalev27]

How do you figure? Coaches get fired when the team stops performing, not based on whether a few individual players show up to start the season or not.

But they don’t look bad as a group - they’ve outplayed the other team every game but 2. Certain key players look very bad as individuals and it’s costing games. If Panarin or Mika or Strome or either goalie looked even average, the record would be very different.

And the team literally has stopped performing

they’re out coached they’re undisciplined can’t protect leads come out flat and special teams is terrible.

 

[SA16]

The Rangers have the 9th best CA60 and 11th CF% after being 31st and 28th respectively last year but were making things up and saying they’ve had no system and no structure because the top players aren’t scoring? Blaming the coach for playing Jack Johnson is one thing. The rest is mostly nonsense.

 

[Kovalev27]

By the way If someone wants to point me in the direction of David Quinn’s success as an nhl coach anywhere in the past as reason to trust his process please by all means do so.

at any level really I’ll take it but he’s done nothing to earn the benefit of the doubt. He looks as lost as his team

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

Last night they didn't come out flat, though. Other games, yes, but they were solid in the opening minutes.

Between Quinn as a coach and the systems, it's likely something in between. Quinn gives his vets a lot of rope. They're his "horses" and he wants to ride them for as long as possible to let them work out of their funks. He can't treat them like the kids. He's gotta respect them for him to get respect back. He is giving them leeway on offensive creativity, and I suspect those guys have a lot of say about the power play and how they want to do it. You can't be a coach in this league without a system. There's no way. The problem is probably those vets, in trying to be creative offensively, is breaking down that system, with them becoming out of position and not knowing how to reorganize when an offensive play doesn't work.

This is fair, they didn't. But they did come out flat AF in the second. Most, if not all, coaches ride their vets and right now, I'd say they are this teams biggest issue. And spotty goaltending.

 

[Fitzy]

I suspect that since Management had a clear goal of making the playoffs this season, if by midseason we are WAAAAY away from that goal he could be fired midseason.

In fact, I would bet that no matter what, if NYR miss the playoffs with this roster Quinn will be let go.

 

[will1066]

This is fair, they didn't. But they did come out flat AF in the second. Most, if not all, coaches ride their vets and right now, I'd say they are this teams biggest issue. And spotty goaltending.

Quinn pointed out in his post-game presser that the team was demoralized after the shorthanded goal.

 

[LetsGoRangers2021]

It's not?

I think that's exactly his job. Or at least it would be under normal circumstances.

In our particular instance his job, IMO, is first and foremost to get the kids moving. The vets are a protective shield for the kids so I'm only tangentially concerned about them.

No, for the most part, I don't think it is Quinn's job to motivate the older players in the room. In fact, it is their job to set the example through play or locker room voice to motivate the younger players. It's called being a self-starter - a 28 year old making millions and wearing the "A" should be busting his own ass on things like: getting better at faceoffs, putting in a more consistent effort, skating and hitting harder, working out, researching other teams' tendencies, etc etc.

I don't mean to be an asshole - but do you need your mom to tell you to clean your room everyday? They are grown-ups that have been playing this game longer than some of the guys on these boards have been alive. The coach is mostly responsible for teaching schemes, putting players in the position to succeed, etc etc.

 

[Joe Ranger Fan 1960]

I'm still not down on Quinn. He may end up being the scapegoat, but somebody needs to step up and show some leadership. Is this some type of lost art? Do the players collectively believe that it's not their job? Guys used to kill to wear the Rangers C. I've had the pleasure of meeting some of the Rangers former captains, as I'm sure many of you here on this forum have. They each said that it is one of the honors that they are most proud of in life. Somebody on this team needs to step up.

 

[duhmetreE]

We lost as soon as Jack Johnson was put in over Smith. ( we eventually played as I felt, when I heard the news; dejected )

We lost when Jack Johnson, after taking a terrible penalty, gets the first shift after the they scored on the PP.

We lost when Jack Johnson gets more ice time than KAM

We lost when Jack Johnson is on PK1.

We lost when the Powerplay has not changed AT ALL.

We lost with Strome still being allowed to suck the life out of everything

We lost with 4 RHS on PP1

We lost when our best PPQB is not on PP1 and arguably our best forward is not on PP1

We lost when we still have not adjusted to a trap

We lost when this leads to players not being engaged and/or going through the motions



This is all on coaching. I do not comprehend how you would not see this. Players not being engaged is a symptom of the problem; Not the root of the problem.

Blame also needs to go to the front office. Jack Johnson was a horrendous signing. We did nothing/very little to add balance to the roster. Our center depth is still bad, even more glaring when Chytil gets hurt.

 

[LetsGoRangers2021]

Quinn is making Panarin coast and take long shots all game? He’s making Mika disappear? He’s the reason neither goalie can give an even average performance despite the team limiting high danger chances?

How do you think the bottom 6 is playing well enough to make chances for and prevent chances against if there’s no system? I don’t get this

And it’s not “every night” - it’s literally been the first game and last night that they were outplayed.

I couldn't agree more. Listen, I get it. We are all disappointed and would love to find a scapegoat. It is human nature. In fact, I've blamed coaches plenty but the longer I watch, the more I realize... the coach is not everything. The players play the game. Coming out flat? Is Quinn supposed to sing and dance and beat the players before each game like Torts. How long before that loses its' effectiveness. No. The vets have had a slow as shit start and it is why we are losing. The kids have been great. The coaching schemes have been great. Our newish system has grossly outplayed the other team in every game except for the two.

 

[LetsGoRangers2021]

We lost as soon as Jack Johnson was put in over Smith. ( we eventually played as I felt, when I heard the news; dejected )

We lost when Jack Johnson, after taking a terrible penalty, gets the first shift after the they scored on the PP.

We lost when Jack Johnson gets more ice time than KAM

We lost when Jack Johnson is on PK1.

We lost when the Powerplay has not changed AT ALL.

We lost with Strome still being allowed to suck the life out of everything

We lost with 4 RHS on PP1

We lost when our best PPQB is not on PP1 and arguably our best forward is not on PP1

We lost when we still have not adjusted to a trap

We lost when this leads to players not being engaged and/or going through the motions



This is all on coaching. I do not comprehend how you would not see this. Players not being engaged is a symptom of the problem; Not the root of the problem.

Blame also needs to go to the front office. Jack Johnson was a horrendous signing. We did nothing/very little to add balance to the roster. Our center depth is still bad, even more glaring when Chytil gets hurt.

Great.. you hate JJ. We all do. Quinn didn't sign him. He does not get more minutes than KAM (who is still learning the game btw). JJ was scratched and Smith went in. Smith played one good game and stayed in. He has since played two complete shit games and has had plays lead DIRECTLY to goals. Please don't act like Smith is some shutdown defender himself. It actually sounds like JJ is a good teammate... anyone else notice him coaching and talking to the younger dmen during games? I know a lot of us miss that while we put on our nerd glasses and compute statistics. I'd argue Fox has been just as good as TDA on PP1. He is also the future of the team. We all cry about one thing or another. We take Fox off, some other asshole would be crying about the coach stunting his development.

It's ok to have differing opinions. These are mine.

 

[dapowl]

Quinn developing youngsters. Giving them Worst (Kakko) and 4th (Laf) worst defensive zone starts and demoting them for even the slightest mistake and giving them max 15 min TOI....while the stars are sheltered...

 

[duhmetreE]

Great.. you hate JJ. We all do. Quinn didn't sign him. He does not get more minutes than KAM (who is still learning the game btw). JJ was scratched and Smith went in. Smith played one good game and stayed in. He has since played two complete shit games and has had plays lead DIRECTLY to goals. Please don't act like Smith is some shutdown defender himself. It actually sounds like JJ is a good teammate... anyone else notice him coaching and talking to the younger dmen during games? I know a lot of us miss that while we put on our nerd glasses and compute statistics. I'd argue Fox has been just as good as TDA on PP1. He is also the future of the team. We all cry about one thing or another. We take Fox off, some other asshole would be crying about the coach stunting his development.

It's ok to have differing opinions. These are mine.

We're watching two different games. A puck jumping over your stick is not a reason to put JJ back in. Smith is LIGHT YEARS BETTER than JJ.

You're defending Quinn and contorting things to fit the narrative. ADA was and still is PPQB1. You dont lose that title when you take an 'emotional' penalty.

He also has the best 'analytics' of the defenseman... but that only counts if we like the player.

'It sounds like JJ is a good teammate' ? We know Smith is a good teammate and leader. He's been in the pressbox with Game1 and yesterdays game... you know what those games have in common? Horrendous effort/engagement. Maybe Smith should be playing instead of an ECHL talent. Maybe if he's there we dont play with this shit effort? possible? maybe worth looking into

P.S. - Shesterkin is the bonafide #1. YOU RIDE HIM AND GIVE HIM EVERY CHANCE TO REBOUND

Quinns personnel management is as bad as it gets. Completely out of touch

 

[Ruggs225]

The Rangers have the 9th best CA60 and 11th CF% after being 31st and 28th respectively last year but were making things up and saying they’ve had no system and no structure because the top players aren’t scoring? Blaming the coach for playing Jack Johnson is one thing. The rest is mostly nonsense.

games arent won on spreadsheets. Right now we are in last place in the NHL.

 

[HaNotsri]

That's a pretty low blow. What team do you support? Btw, we all pretty much know that fact. As soon as this team decides it "hates to lose" then they will get it together. But as it is, we are looking at yet another lottery pick. Uggggh.

Sabres so the I figured the low blow would reflect back on my own team.
With all the quality on your roster Quinn must be a disaster coach.

A huge part of our failed rebuild 1.0 was keeping bad coaches around that messed up both player development and eventually making players want out.
Once they figured out they hated losing they wanted a trade from Buffalo rather than trying to turn things around.

Now we're at rebuild 2.5 and still not a playoff team...

 

[True Blue]

By the way If someone wants to point me in the direction of David Quinn’s success as an nhl coach anywhere in the past as reason to trust his process please by all means do so.

at any level really I’ll take it but he’s done nothing to earn the benefit of the doubt. He looks as lost as his team

The team overachieved last year, despite having a fire dumpster of a defense most of the year. They continuously improved from the beginning to the end.

Panarin, ZBad & Kreider not playing to half their ability has nothing to do with Quinn.

 

[True Blue]

games arent won on spreadsheets. Right now we are in last place in the NHL.

Grab a goalie who can play the game at a C level and all of a sudden you would have had a winning record

 

[LetsGoRangers2021]

Quinn developing youngsters. Giving them Worst (Kakko) and 4th (Laf) worst defensive zone starts and demoting them for even the slightest mistake and giving them max 15 min TOI....while the stars are sheltered...

Defensive zone starts? Interesting focus. My take:

1) Focusing on giving KK and LAF offensive zone starts is playing to their strengths. This helps them develop that aspect of their game without overwhelming them.

2) Playing to individual player's strengths is also the coaches job when they try to maximize talent - ie to WIN

The stars are sheltered? I think you have misused the term as commonly applied. Playing the youngsters in situations where they can thrive is sheltering them. The vets have already had many years learning defensive hockey in the NHL - a skill that is harder and takes more experience and time for younger players to get down.

 

[duhmetreE]

The team overachieved last year, despite having a fire dumpster of a defense most of the year. They continuously improved from the beginning to the end.

Panarin, ZBad & Kreider not playing to half their ability has nothing to do with Quinn.

In every other area of life, if work productivity suffers, the manager/team leader takes the hit. Why is this different?

This is not an isolated issue. This is, what feels like, over half the team.

 

[Ruggs225]

Grab a goalie who can play the game at a C level and all of a sudden you would have had a winning record

grab a coach who stops playing jj and we might win too.

 

[True Blue]

In every other area of life, if work productivity suffers, the manager/team leader takes the hit. Why is this different?

This is not an isolated issue. This is what feels like, over half the team.

In almost all other areas of life, the workers get fired for poor performance. Not management. But you are not really going to fire Panarin in this case are you?

 

[duhmetreE]

In almost all other areas of life, the workers get fired for poor performance. Not management. But you are not really going to fire Panarin in this case are you?

Yes, lets fire half the team. Give Quinn a college team so we can compete. Workers get fired if it's isolated to an individual or two. That is not the case here.

Management, in this instance coaching, 100% gets the heat.

Some are pointing to the symptoms of the problem. Not the root and cause of it all.

 

[Daves a mess]

The Rangers have the 9th best CA60 and 11th CF% after being 31st and 28th respectively last year but were making things up and saying they’ve had no system and no structure because the top players aren’t scoring? Blaming the coach for playing Jack Johnson is one thing. The rest is mostly nonsense.

I'm probably the least fancy stats guy on here and this post sums up the last 20 pages perfectly for me.
I'm gonna regret these kudos when you correct me for my "gut feelings" though aren't I?