Speculation: 2023-24-25 Sharks Roster Discussion

[Saskatoon]

I could see them utilizing Wennberg as getting a bulk of the tough assignments and d zone starts - which in that case probably don't want Smith on his line

 

[hohosaregood]

Just realized once again that Celebrini is really in teal.
I was just watching some Sharks roster stuff in Elite Prospects, then just saw his name and it brought kind of a warm feeling. The same feeling I got back when Sharks were a playoff team. But still a little better because this is likely a franchise changing player that just turned 18. There is so many years ahead to watch this player grow and see how far he can take it.

IDK if it's just bias but Celebrini does feel kinda underrated. Seems like a lot of people still project that he'll be just an above average 1C. But he's got some of that cheat code factor that separates the franchise level guys from the rest like MacKinnon's acceleration, Crosby's puck protection or Stone's takeaways. I just have a hard time articulating it for Celebrini, it's like he's got a next level awareness of his body and knows exactly how to maximize it.

 

[jMoneyBrah]

I could see them utilizing Wennberg as getting a bulk of the tough assignments and d zone starts - which in that case probably don't want Smith on his line

I disagree. I want Smith there. If the assumption is that Smith is an incomplete defensive player; I wouldn’t absolve him of the duties. I would rather pair him with someone who is super adept at that game in the hopes that he will learn to add those details.

If the Sharks were a contending team, then yes, optimize around immediate outcomes and tell Smith to just go out and score some gpalz. But that isn’t this team. In this period where there are no expectations that the Sharks are pushing for the playoffs, and with the addition of Wennberg, there is an opportunity to ensure Smith doesn’t end up an empty calories scorer. If Smith makes mistakes in his end that end up in the back of the net; fine. Learn from it, grow, add to your game. Smith, in particular, strikes me as someone who desires to be the best and up for a challenge. I think he will rise to the occasion.

Just to be clear: I’m not advocating that Warsofsky bury him exclusively in defensive zone starts. Just to not shy away from pairing him with Wennberg and challenging him to grow into a high-level contributor in his own end.

 

[Star Platinum]

I disagree. I want Smith there. If the assumption is that Smith is an incomplete defensive player; I wouldn’t absolve him of the duties. I would rather pair him with someone who is super adept at that game in the hopes that he will learn to add those details.

If the Sharks were a contending team, then yes, optimize around immediate outcomes and tell Smith to just go out and score some gpalz. But that isn’t this team. In this period where there are no expectations that the Sharks are pushing for the playoffs, and with the addition of Wennberg, there is an opportunity to ensure Smith doesn’t end up an empty calories scorer. If Smith makes mistakes in his end that end up in the back of the net; fine. Learn from it, grow, add to your game. Smith, in particular, strikes me as someone who desires to be the best and up for a challenge. I think he will rise to the occasion.

Just to be clear: I’m not advocating that Warsofsky bury him exclusively in defensive zone starts. Just to not shy away from pairing him with Wennberg and challenging him to grow into a high-level contributor in his own end.

I don't want to pair him with Wennberg because I want him to play with offensively skilled forwards as he is an offensively skilled forward himself, but this is the exact right kind of thinking. There are no stakes to this season. We're not going to come close to making the playoffs so there's no point worrying about putting guys in suboptimal situations. Give them responsibilities so that they get better at doing the things you want them to do.

 

[mogambomoroo]

IDK if it's just bias but Celebrini does feel kinda underrated. Seems like a lot of people still project that he'll be just an above average 1C. But he's got some of that cheat code factor that separates the franchise level guys from the rest like MacKinnon's acceleration, Crosby's puck protection or Stone's takeaways. I just have a hard time articulating it for Celebrini, it's like he's got a next level awareness of his body and knows exactly how to maximize it.

I would agree, many of my hockey friends are like that's cool but don't hype that pick as much as it needs to be hyped!
It's like they've missed the entire draft this year.
Good comparison for Celebrini is the computer generated franchise potential player with all the attributes perfectly in line, that you can draft in Franchise Mode in NHL game. I think that's pretty close to him.
I think he can be a player that can mix all of those attributes of Crosby/MacKinnon/Stone and develop a very own style that's going to be a model for upcoming drafts.

 

[bullslugg]

I disagree. I want Smith there. If the assumption is that Smith is an incomplete defensive player; I wouldn’t absolve him of the duties. I would rather pair him with someone who is super adept at that game in the hopes that he will learn to add those details.

If the Sharks were a contending team, then yes, optimize around immediate outcomes and tell Smith to just go out and score some gpalz. But that isn’t this team. In this period where there are no expectations that the Sharks are pushing for the playoffs, and with the addition of Wennberg, there is an opportunity to ensure Smith doesn’t end up an empty calories scorer. If Smith makes mistakes in his end that end up in the back of the net; fine. Learn from it, grow, add to your game. Smith, in particular, strikes me as someone who desires to be the best and up for a challenge. I think he will rise to the occasion.

Just to be clear: I’m not advocating that Warsofsky bury him exclusively in defensive zone starts. Just to not shy away from pairing him with Wennberg and challenging him to grow into a high-level contributor in his own end.

New scoring system?

 

[STL Shark]

I agree with this. I don't think guys look up to bad players with past success. We got a bunch of bad depth players because they won cups during the DW era and they continued just being bad players that didn't bring any value.

I think even fewer guys look at the stuff that fans do to determine Goodrow is “bad”. Don’t see a host of pro athletes rattling off what someone’s WAR or xGF% and stuff is. It’s about habits and guys that have been there before.

 

[Hodge]

I think people are underrating the impact of replacing ~180 games of Addison, Burroughs and Okhotiuk with Walman and some combo of a healthy Emberson/Benning and older Thrun/Mukhamadullin. Our defense has significantly improved just by subtraction.

 

[Juxtaposer]

I think people are underrating the impact of replacing ~180 games of Addison, Burroughs and Okhotiuk with Walman and some combo of a healthy Emberson/Benning and older Thrun/Mukhamadullin. Our defense has significantly improved just by subtraction.

It’s a lot of ifs, but if Mukh can play as well as I think he can, Emberson can stay consistent and healthy, Benning returns at the level he was in 22-33, and Thrun can improve a bit, this D group is much better than last season. Add one more RD like I’ve been saying (Whitecloud, Liljegren, Fabbro, TVR, etc.) and it might even be a passable NHL defense.

I can’t explain how happy I am to not have to watch Burroughs, Ohkotiuk, Addison, etc. anymore. What a disaster that was.

 

[Hodge]

It’s a lot of ifs, but if Mukh can play as well as I think he can, Emberson can stay consistent and healthy, Benning returns at the level he was in 22-33, and Thrun can improve a bit, this D group is much better than last season. Add one more RD like I’ve been saying (Whitecloud, Liljegren, Fabbro, TVR, etc.) and it might even be a passable NHL defense.

I can’t explain how happy I am to not have to watch Burroughs, Ohkotiuk, Addison, etc. anymore. What a disaster that was.

Great call on TVR. Caps would probably dump him for nothing considering he's now their 3rd RD not even including Ethan Bear.

 

[Cas]

I think even fewer guys look at the stuff that fans do to determine Goodrow is “bad”. Don’t see a host of pro athletes rattling off what someone’s WAR or xGF% and stuff is. It’s about habits and guys that have been there before.

Professional athletes are the last people I'd ask to evaluate other professional athletes. They're notoriously bad at doing so, as a group.

 

[SjMilhouse]

Professional athletes are the last people I'd ask to evaluate other professional athletes. They're notoriously bad at doing so, as a group.

Exhibit A: Vlasic

 

[landshark]

IDK if it's just bias but Celebrini does feel kinda underrated. Seems like a lot of people still project that he'll be just an above average 1C. But he's got some of that cheat code factor that separates the franchise level guys from the rest like MacKinnon's acceleration, Crosby's puck protection or Stone's takeaways. I just have a hard time articulating it for Celebrini, it's like he's got a next level awareness of his body and knows exactly how to maximize it.

80-90 pts and the Selke? Perhaps he has some defense-based cheat codes and never gets scored on at evens?

 

[Mattb124]

Having a guy in Goodrow that has won the cup can teach the kids a lot about being a pro, but on the flip side how many times have we seen fans blow off the cap implications of a contract like his only to have it hamstring the team in the later years?

 

[Hodge]

Having a guy in Goodrow that has won the cup can teach the kids a lot about being a pro, but on the flip side how many times have we seen fans blow off the cap implications of a contract like his only to have it hamstring the team in the later years?

It's a 3 year contract that will come off the books as soon as our top two centers are no longer on sub-$1 million cap hits. There is no chance the Goodrow contract prevents the Sharks from doing anything they want to do.

 

[Barrie22]

Having a guy in Goodrow that has won the cup can teach the kids a lot about being a pro, but on the flip side how many times have we seen fans blow off the cap implications of a contract like his only to have it hamstring the team in the later years?

If we ever get to the point where we need to remove his contract it won't be until the final season of the contract and then it would only cost us 471k for 2 years on the cap.

His contract is not a hinderance now or into the future.

 

[tiburon12]

Professional athletes are the last people I'd ask to evaluate other professional athletes. They're notoriously bad at doing so, as a group.

So we should just hear this from a player and think, "wow they are terrible at evaluating each other"?? That veterans have no off-ice value?

https://x.com/i/web/status/1811439195258560745

 

[OrrNumber4]

If we ever get to the point where we need to remove his contract it won't be until the final season of the contract and then it would only cost us 471k for 2 years on the cap.

His contract is not a hinderance now or into the future.

This is a very good point, and something I hadn't considered. So, back to considering it 98% not a problem...

 

[Cas]

So we should just hear this from a player and think, "wow they are terrible at evaluating each other"?? That veterans have no off-ice value?

https://x.com/i/web/status/1811439195258560745

No, I think we should hear that from a player and say "that's cool, but it doesn't really mean anything."

Basically, I don't ever really care what a player in any sport says about any other player, if it's meant to be an evaluation of their impact or value. I have no faith whatsoever in their opinion.

 

[jMoneyBrah]

So we should just hear this from a player and think, "wow they are terrible at evaluating each other"?? That veterans have no off-ice value?

https://x.com/i/web/status/1811439195258560745

No, I think we should hear that from a player and say "that's cool, but it doesn't really mean anything."

Basically, I don't ever really care what a player in any sport says about any other player, if it's meant to be an evaluation of their impact or value. I have no faith whatsoever in their opinion.

I’ll just point out that if pro athletes in aggregate as a single entity are bad at evaluating talent, and whose opinions are immediately dismissible, fans in aggregate as a single entity are S-tier garbage level talent evaluators. As such, from here on out, I’ll be dismissing all of everyone here’s opinions, in my mind, before you even form them.

 

[Star Platinum]

I’ll just point out that if pro athletes in aggregate as a single entity are bad at evaluating talent, and whose opinions are immediately dismissible, fans in aggregate as a single entity are S-tier garbage level talent evaluators. As such, from here on out, I’ll be dismissing all of everyone here’s opinions, in my mind, before you even form them.

 

[coooldude]

No, I think we should hear that from a player and say "that's cool, but it doesn't really mean anything."

Basically, I don't ever really care what a player in any sport says about any other player, if it's meant to be an evaluation of their impact or value. I have no faith whatsoever in their opinion.

In their stated public opinion, or in their opinion in general? Do you have faith in an athlete's opinion in self-evaluation and driving their development, or are you saying the athletes are meat and the coaches and developmental staff are the brains? Does this apply universally to all athletes in every sport or is there a spectrum on which athletes land in terms of self or other evaluation? It's a pretty hot take you're taking so I'm interested to learn where it's coming from.

 

[tiburon12]

In their stated public opinion, or in their opinion in general? Do you have faith in an athlete's opinion in self-evaluation and driving their development, or are you saying the athletes are meat and the coaches and developmental staff are the brains? Does this apply universally to all athletes in every sport or is there a spectrum on which athletes land in terms of self or other evaluation? It's a pretty hot take you're taking so I'm interested to learn where it's coming from.

I wrote 10 iterations of this post and deleted all of them. This is much better

 

[bigsjfan]

Just curious. How many scouts (pro/amature), coaches, GMs, hell even Agents are ex-players? Just not sure who would be a better evaluator of talent then someone with it.

 

[STL Shark]

Professional athletes are the last people I'd ask to evaluate other professional athletes. They're notoriously bad at doing so, as a group.

Which isn't the point whatsoever being discussed. The point was that since fans think "Goodrow is bad so why would any player respect his mentorship because he's not good" is a stupid line of thinking because the bulk of NHL players are not going to think he's bad. Whether they're right or the fans are right is not really the purpose of the discussion at hand. It's that he's going to be a good guy in the room to teach traits and habits to the young guys.

What a lot of the naysayers are missing is that it doesn't even have to be his own skills that are being taught. Imagine he's able to have a conversation with Smith or Celebrini about "When I was in Tampa, I'd notice Stammer/Kucherov practice this move in this particular way" and then they instantly have credibility in trying that because he's been around two of the best forwards in the modern history of the sport for a good amount of time and through a couple of Stanley Cups.