2022/23 Roster Thread XVII: The Days are Getting Longer

[JojoTheWhale]

Lol.

I think we all knew this was happening to some degree, but to go on the record and flaunt it is absolutely hilarious.

Just remember Fletcher is part of the club. It's why he got the gig. This is a feature, not a bug. He's poisoned fruit too.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Whatever Clarke did, was behind the scenes. There's no evidence he played any role in day to day decisions.

So Holmgren's refusal to rebuild, his patches before Hextall, and even the firing of Hextall are his decisions.

Clarke may have pushed to dump Hextall, but Holmgren was the decision maker at the time and if you listen to Scott, all he was doing was mouthing Holmgren's words. Holmgren set the strategy and tone for the organization, then rode off into the sunset as the building burned behind him. Clarke may have influenced the hiring of Chuck, but Holmgren was going to hire someone similar, a "hockey guy" and give him the same mandate to win now, the future be damned.

I don't think it was "either/or," I'm sure Holmgren and Clarke talked on a regular basis and were generally in agreement at the time.
Now where the splits are today, who knows?

Holmgren has stated he has always relied heavily on Clarke's input. How much, who knows. But from the Hextall situation on, both Homer and Clarke have made it abundantly clear Clarke was the driver.


Besides...remind me, who is responsible for Holmgren? You know what, I'll answer for you. It's Clarke, who Holmgren has described as a big brother he looks up to for guidance. All things you selectively ignore repeatedly for some reason.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I think we all knew this was happening to some degree, but to go on the record and flaunt it is absolutely hilarious.

Just remember Fletcher is part of the club. It's why he got the gig. This is a feature, not a bug. He's poisoned fruit too.

Likewise Briere, who with no experience whatsoever has learned his entire craft from these frauds.

 

[mja]

Whatever Clarke did, was behind the scenes. There's no evidence he played any role in day to day decisions.

So Holmgren's refusal to rebuild, his patches before Hextall, and even the firing of Hextall are his decisions.

Clarke may have pushed to dump Hextall, but Holmgren was the decision maker at the time and if you listen to Scott, all he was doing was mouthing Holmgren's words. Holmgren set the strategy and tone for the organization, then rode off into the sunset as the building burned behind him. Clarke may have influenced the hiring of Chuck, but Holmgren was going to hire someone similar, a "hockey guy" and give him the same mandate to win now, the future be damned.

I don't think it was "either/or," I'm sure Holmgren and Clarke talked on a regular basis and were generally in agreement at the time.
Now where the splits are today, who knows?

So it is all just misplaced nostalgia for Clarke. So freaking weird. Everything I've heard is that Holmgren has sidelined himself for quite a while now, but it doesn't even matter, if he's secretly the man behind the curtain it doesn't change the conversation at all, and for the life of me I can't figure out why you think it does.

 

[deadhead]

I didn't say Holmgren is currently playing much of a role, he rode into the sunset, but before he did, the damage was done.
But the idea that Holmgren was Clarke's puppet is silly, doesn't fit anything we know about the man.

I suspect that most decisions were vetted and a general consensus reached, even if Holmgren and then Fletcher filled in the details. Remember, that was a big component of hiring Fletcher, that he'd welcome input from the advisors and make consensus decisions and not be a cowboy.

The problem was probably more a matter of groupthink by a bunch of "hockey men," who reflected the Flyers mantra that rebuilding is for other teams, we "aggressively retool," and always compete. So I doubt there was a lot of heated disagreements until recently, when the blame game started.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Help me understand your obsession with Paul Holmgren. Is it just that you're loathe to pin any blame on Clarke out of misplaced nostalgia? What? It make absolutely no damned sense. There's no significance, no point whatsoever.

Let’s be honest, we know what it is.

 

[Beef Invictus]

So it is all just misplaced nostalgia for Clarke. So freaking weird. Everything I've heard is that Holmgren has sidelined himself for quite a while now, but it doesn't even matter, if he's secretly the man behind the curtain it doesn't change the conversation at all, and for the life of me I can't figure out why you think it does.

Holmgren has made it clear for years that he dislikes the management aspect of hockey. His passion was scouting. He hated trading players, hated firing people; it's probably why Stevens was kept too long, and Lavi was kept beyond the point that it was unavoidably obvious that he was the wrong fit for the direction management was trying to go. The most in-character thing for everything we know of Clarke and Homer is that it took Clarke's heavy prodding to get him to move on Hextall. Nor is it coincidence that after, he turned his duties over the Fletcher the second he was settled in enough. He'd been burned out by those aspects of the job long before.

The idea that after all that, Homer is some devious shadow master pulling the strings (yet not gunning after JG??) simply does not fit what is known about Homer. It sure does fit everything that's ever been known of Clarke though.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I didn't say Holmgren is currently playing much of a role, he rode into the sunset, but before he did, the damage was done.
But the idea that Holmgren was Clarke's puppet is silly, doesn't fit anything we know about the man.

I suspect that most decisions were vetted and a general consensus reached, even if Holmgren and then Fletcher filled in the details. Remember, that was a big component of hiring Fletcher, that he'd welcome input from the advisors and make consensus decisions and not be a cowboy.

The problem was probably more a matter of groupthink by a bunch of "hockey men," who reflected the Flyers mantra that rebuilding is for other teams, we "aggressively retool," and always compete. So I doubt there was a lot of heated disagreements until recently, when the blame game started.

It does fit what we know about the men, actually. Especially how they themselves describe the dynamic between them.

As recently as last summer you were insisting Holmgren was micromanaging everything.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Keep digging that hole.

 

[mja]

I didn't say Holmgren is currently playing much of a role, he rode into the sunset, but before he did, the damage was done.
But the idea that Holmgren was Clarke's puppet is silly, doesn't fit anything we know about the man.

I suspect that most decisions were vetted and a general consensus reached, even if Holmgren and then Fletcher filled in the details. Remember, that was a big component of hiring Fletcher, that he'd welcome input from the advisors and make consensus decisions and not be a cowboy.

The problem was probably more a matter of groupthink by a bunch of "hockey men," who reflected the Flyers mantra that rebuilding is for other teams, we "aggressively retool," and always compete. So I doubt there was a lot of heated disagreements until recently, when the blame game started.

No one has said Holmgren was Clarke's puppet. He's his disciple, same as Fletcher. They're all rotten. The entire f***ing tree is rotten.

Also, please know that whenever you type "I suspect" an angel loses his wings and I suddenly have a visceral urge to punch you in the nose through the computer. It's one of your weird "tricks" where you get to fabricate pure fantasy and then try to pass it off as reasoned speculation.

 

[mja]

Holmgren has made it clear for years that he dislikes the management aspect of hockey. His passion was scouting. He hated trading players, hated firing people; it's probably why Stevens was kept too long, and Lavi was kept beyond the point that it was unavoidably obvious that he was the wrong fit for the direction management was trying to go. The most in-character thing for everything we know of Clarke and Homer is that it took Clarke's heavy prodding to get him to move on Hextall. Nor is it coincidence that after, he turned his duties over the Fletcher the second he was settled in enough. He'd been burned out by those aspects of the job long before.

The idea that after all that, Homer is some devious shadow master pulling the strings (yet not gunning after JG??) simply does not fit what is known about Homer. It sure does fit everything that's ever been known of Clarke though.

Exactly this.

 

[deadhead]

Holmgren could have resigned a long time ago, instead he garnered more authority and became Scott's sounding board.
Why not suggest that Lombardi could step in for him?
He may not like some management aspects, but he liked being the man who sets the tone.

It's not Holmgren v Clarke, it's Holmgren with Clark and Lombardi. Holmgren was the triggerman, but they were all on the same page.
It's not Fletcher running the organization, it's the FO group think being expressed through Fletcher.
And I think Scott doesn't want to hear bad news, so when he's told by the advisors that they can aggressively retool and compete and sell tickets he laps it up and doesn't question it.
Like I've said "it took a village of idiots . . ."

Now I doubt this is still true, when things go bad, people tend to finger point and absolve themselves of responsibility.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

“I blame everyone - it took a village of idiots to sink this franchise.”

Now watch as I minimize, absolve, justify actions of several members of the front office.

 

[Beef Invictus]

There's also the reality that prior to being here, Fletcher has no real connection to Holmgren. He has real and serious connections to Lombardi and Clarke, though.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Holmgren could have resigned a long time ago, instead he garnered more authority and became Scott's sounding board.
Why not suggest that Lombardi could step in for him?
He may not like some management aspects, but he liked being the man who sets the tone.

It's not Holmgren v Clarke, it's Holmgren with Clark and Lombardi. Holmgren was the triggerman, but they were all on the same page.
It's not Fletcher running the organization, it's the FO group think being expressed through Fletcher.
And I think Scott doesn't want to hear bad news, so when he's told by the advisors that they can aggressively retool and compete and sell tickets he laps it up and doesn't question it.
Like I've said "it took a village of idiots . . ."

Now I doubt this is still true, when things go bad, people tend to finger point and absolve themselves of responsibility.

Fletcher and Flahr are the entire power structure. If he desired, he could have IDed the Olds as the problem and Scott would have been fine with exorcising them. Fletcher chose to empower them. Holmgren did resign pretty much the first chance he got. He's happened to also make it clear that he did these jobs out of loyalty to the team.

But your narrative that Holmgren is more to blame than the rest flat-out doesn't match anything that has been revealed, ever.

 

[deadhead]

There's also the reality that prior to being here, Fletcher has no real connection to Holmgren. He has real and serious connections to Lombardi and Clarke, though.

Do you think Fletcher would have been hired if Holmgren had a serious objection or had his pet candidate lined up?
I doubt it.
They probably went through a short list, with similar qualifications, "hockey man" with previous GM experience who plays well with others.
No bright young up and comer with his own ideas that he'll push over the objection of the advisors.

Clarke was in Florida sipping mai tais while Holmgren was running things the previous decade.
Clarke may have discussed things with Holmgren, but only one had any authority, and interacted with Scott on a regular basis.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Do you think Fletcher would have been hired if Holmgren had a serious objection or had his pet candidate lined up?
I doubt it.
They probably went through a short list, with similar qualifications, "hockey man" with previous GM experience who plays well with others.
No bright young up and comer with his own ideas that he'll push over the objection of the advisors.

Holmgren didn't have pet candidates or objections because by that point, he was over the whole management thing. Based on all he's said and done for close to a decade.Hence the resignation not long after.

The process was: Clarke suggested his available crony. That's it. Clarke gave his guy, Homer said "sure." That's what's been revealed publicly too.

 

[mja]

Do you think Fletcher would have been hired if Holmgren had a serious objection or had his pet candidate lined up?
I doubt it.
They probably went through a short list, with similar qualifications, "hockey man" with previous GM experience who plays well with others.
No bright young up and comer with his own ideas that he'll push over the objection of the advisors.

Clarke was in Florida sipping mai tais while Holmgren was running things the previous decade.
Clarke may have discussed things with Holmgren, but only one had any authority, and interacted with Scott on a regular basis.

Remind me again who has come out on multiple occasions to put Hextall on blast? Why / how would he know if all he's doing is sipping mai tais in Florida. Hextall was fired for trying to keep the alumni out of the loop. Remind me, whose team was this for the bulk of its existence, i.e. the leader if not the owner of the franchise?

The craziest part about this whole discussion continues to be that it doesn't actually have a point. It doesn't matter. It doesn't change anything. The tree is rotten no matter whether it started from the roots, the trunk, or the most recent branch. You're insistence on trying to make it matter is bizarre and I can only think of two reasons why you've launched into this crusade of no import. 1) You're a Clarke fanboy. 2) You've convinced yourself that if this was all Holmgren's fault, then you weren't wrong in defending Fletcher.

 

[Magua]

WHAT?!

 

[mja]

WHAT?!

View attachment 640256

Dude literally won an award for being born here.

 

[prototypical4thliner]

WHAT?!

View attachment 640256

Truly aspirational. Holy shit.

 

[Beef Invictus]

WHAT?!

View attachment 640256

Are we not doing phrasing anymore?

 

[Beef Invictus]

Dude literally won an award for being born here.

Hidden level of comedy: the historic usage of "Native Son" and "Native" in US history.

They really ought to have sought different phrasing with his past lol

 

[Beef Invictus]

Remind me again who has come out on multiple occasions to put Hextall on blast? Why / how would he know if all he's doing is sipping mai tais in Florida. Hextall was fired for trying to keep the alumni out of the loop. Remind me, whose team was this for the bulk of its existence, i.e. the leader if not the owner of the franchise?

The craziest part about this whole discussion continues to be that it doesn't actually have a point. It doesn't matter. It doesn't change anything. The tree is rotten no matter whether it started from the roots, the trunk, or the most recent branch. You're insistence on trying to make it matter is bizarre and I can only think of two reasons why you've launched into this crusade of no import. 1) You're a Clarke fanboy. 2) You've convinced yourself that if this was all Holmgren's fault, then you weren't wrong in defending Fletcher.

And Clarke has pretty much gone out of his way to affirm he's doing a lot more than sip booze in Florida.

 

[Magua]

Hidden level of comedy: the historic usage of "Native Son" and "Native" in US history.

They really ought to have sought different phrasing with his past lol

I wouldn’t read that much into it. Here’s the awards ceremony, seems innocuous enough: