2022/23 Roster Thread XVII: The Days are Getting Longer

[Beef Invictus]

Remember, that decision was made while Chuck believed the team would be competing.

 

[Magua]

Your Flyers, kinda bad at everything off the rush:

 

[deadhead]

Now run that for the last 20 games, since they've had set lines.

 

[Fire Tortorella]

Your Flyers, kinda bad at everything off the rush:

*snip*

From O'Connor's latest article on The Athletic:

Torts had another theory to explain the team’s inability to take down the Blackhawks. He felt that their recent run of goal scoring improvement may have helped them lose sight of how they need to score goals. “I think sometimes, when you start scoring off the rush and you start scoring some goals like we have, you forget about what it is for us,” he said. “We’re a forechecking team, and I think we forgot that a little bit tonight.”

 

[deadhead]

Well Torts is right, while it's nice to create some fancy goals, this team doesn't have a Marner or a Barzal, much less a McDavid.
Two of the three best offensive players lack speed (Hayes and JVR) and need linemates to move the puck down the ice and to retrieve it.
So when they start trying to play like a skilled team, and lose their forechecking intensity, they stop making things happen.

It's like a run first NFL team trying to go heavy pass with a below par QB, ain't gonna win a lot of games that way.

"A man's got to know his limitations."

 

[Beef Invictus]

From O'Connor's latest article on The Athletic:

Good lord.

A major reason they have struggled to score for long stretches is that they get consumed with scoring from down low after grinding it out, instead of scoring on the rush or setting up mini-rushes in the zone like any modern team tries to do. Especially any modern team with guys like York, Sanheim, and TDA to facilitate.

This guy is fossilizing before our eyes.

 

[mja]

Well Torts is right, while it's nice to create some fancy goals, this team doesn't have a Marner or a Barzal, much less a McDavid.
Two of the three best offensive players lack speed (Hayes and JVR) and need linemates to move the puck down the ice and to retrieve it.
So when they start trying to play like a skilled team, and lose their forechecking intensity, they stop making things happen.

It's like a run first NFL team trying to go heavy pass with a below par QB, ain't gonna win a lot of games that way.

"A man's got to know his limitations."

For f***'s sake!

 

[Beef Invictus]

Less skilled, worse teams manage to leverage more scoring relative to the Flyers and their roster because they don't play like it's 2012. And their coaches/management don't enshrine someone like Cates as the Ideal Player.

 

[deadhead]

Less skilled, worse teams manage to leverage more scoring relative to the Flyers and their roster because they don't play like it's 2012. And their coaches/management don't enshrine someone like Cates as the Ideal Player.

What less skilled teams? All I've heard around here is they totally lack skill and have to tank to get some elite skill people.
Now the tune has changed?

 

[Beef Invictus]

What less skilled teams? All I've heard around here is they totally lack skill and have to tank to get some elite skill people.
Now the tune has changed?

Why don't you try again without the strawman arguments so I know this isn't a waste of time.

 

[deadhead]

Why don't you try again without the strawman arguments so I know this isn't a waste of time.

No strawman.

Who exactly is going to drive those skilled entry plays?

Frost might be the best and he's maybe a bottom 2C right now if he keeps playing well.
Tippett has speed and skill, but lacks the instincts of a player like G.
JVR, Hayes are complementary wings, they don't drive play.
TK attacks with speed but is basically a more experienced, smoother version of Tippett, he doesn't have the vision to QB the offense.

And that's about it. Brink will help when he's ready, but while he has vision and hands, skating is a ???
Foerster should be a solid wing, Lycksell as well, but they're probably another playmaking center from being able to consistently create scoring off zone entries and set up passes. Even Couts played second fiddle to G in that regard.

Teams score with skill when they have skilled players, unskilled teams executing the same plays are a recipe for odd man rushes the other direction.

 

[Beef Invictus]

No strawman.

Who exactly is going to drive those skilled entry plays?

Frost might be the best and he's maybe a bottom 2C right now if he keeps playing well.
Tippett has speed and skill, but lacks the instincts of a player like G.
JVR, Hayes are complementary wings, they don't drive play.
TK attacks with speed but is basically a more experienced, smoother version of Tippett, he doesn't have the vision to QB the offense.

And that's about it. Brink will help when he's ready, but while he has vision and hands, skating is a ???
Foerster should be a solid wing, Lycksell as well, but they're probably another playmaking center from being able to consistently create scoring off zone entries and set up passes. Even Couts played second fiddle to G in that regard.

Teams score with skill when they have skilled players, unskilled teams executing the same plays are a recipe for odd man rushes the other direction.

We've watched teams like Chicago, Anaheim, Columbus, Vancouver, and Arizona to name a few run "skilled" entries.

Heck, it's ridiculous at this point to call them skilled as they've become so routine for most teams. Surely, the Flyers can find a way. If only they had a coach who understood modern offense.

Your insistence that they have to play this way because of a lack of skill makes your other insistence that they have to play shitty grinders even more ridiculous. Instead of trying to fix both problems at once. Maybe if you didn't try to defend every single decision the team makes?

 

[deadhead]

We've watched teams like Chicago, Anaheim, Columbus, Vancouver, and Arizona to name a few run "skilled" entries.

Heck, it's ridiculous at this point to call them skilled as they've become so routine for most teams. Surely, the Flyers can find a way. If only they had a coach who understood modern offense.

Your insistence that they have to play this way because of a lack of skill makes your other insistence that they have to play shitty grinders even more ridiculous. Instead of trying to fix both problems at once. Maybe if you didn't try to defend every single decision the team makes?

Oh yes, they're SO successful
5x5 GF/60:

Chicago 1.74
Anaheim 1.89
Columbus 2.15
Vancouver 2.71
Arizona 2.13
Flyers 2.26,

Vancouver is the only team outscoring the Flyers, with Pettersson, Horvat, JT Miller, Quinn Hughes, Kuzmenko, Mikheyev, Boeser, OEL

Top scoring teams:
Seattle 3.30
Boston 3.11
NJ 3.04
FLA 2.89
BUF 2.84
TB 2.82

Seattle has Burkakovsky (Col let him walk), Berniers (#2), but the rest?
Eberle (32), McCann, Gourde, Sprong, Schwartz (31), Tanev (32), Weenberg, Bjorkstrand, Donato, Geekie
Dunn, Schultz (32), Larsson (30), Olesiak (32) on defense

Now this is the team that is outscoring their talent, must have one heck of a HC!

 

[Beef Invictus]

Oh yes, they're SO successful
5x5 GF/60:

Chicago 1.74
Anaheim 1.89
Columbus 2.15
Vancouver 2.71
Arizona 2.13
Flyers 2.26,

Vancouver is the only team outscoring the Flyers, with Pettersson, Horvat, JT Miller, Quinn Hughes, Kuzmenko, Mikheyev, Boeser, OEL

Top scoring teams:
Seattle 3.30
Boston 3.11
NJ 3.04
FLA 2.89
BUF 2.84
TB 2.82

Seattle has Burkakovsky (Col let him walk), Berniers (#2), but the rest?
Eberle (32), McCann, Gourde, Sprong, Schwartz (31), Tanev (32), Weenberg, Bjorkstrand, Donato, Geekie
Dunn, Schultz (32), Larsson (30), Olesiak (32) on defense

Now this is the team that is outscoring their talent, must have one heck of a HC!

Now you're just deliberately forgetting what I said to begin with. Already covered.

The Flyers SHOULD have higher scoring than those teams. They have a more talented overall roster. That they're in the same neighborhood production-wise is bad. They're getting more out of what they have than the Flyers are. Despite all your offseason assurances that the Secret Offensive Genius Tortorella would be squeezing every drop of potential production out of them.

I also have no idea why you forget the PP is part of offensive production and another area where the Flyers are woefully deficient by coaching design, but it doesn't make much difference.

 

[deadhead]

Now you're just deliberately forgetting what I said to begin with. Already covered.

The Flyers SHOULD have higher scoring than those teams. They have a more talented overall roster. That they're in the same neighborhood production-wise is bad. They're getting more out of what they have than the Flyers are. Despite all your offseason assurances that the Secret Offensive Genius Tortorella would be squeezing every drop of potential production out of them.

I also have no idea why you forget the PP is part of offensive production and another area where the Flyers are woefully deficient by coaching design, but it doesn't make much difference.

The only talent the Flyers have is what Torts has managed to develop.

TK was coming off two mediocre seasons, Farabee off neck surgery.
The consensus here was that Tippett sucked, was a 4th line candidate and Fletcher got taken.
People wanted to give assets to dump Hayes.
People wanted to trade Laughton ASAP.
TDA was a stupid move.
Frost shouldn't be expected to score more than a 3C.
Cates was a 3LW who had no business playing center.
The entire 4th line should be in the AHL.
Provorov is a flop, York was a bad draft pick (should have taken Caufield instead of York and Brink).
Sanheim was overpaid.

So exactly what talent?
You consistently talk out of both sides of your mouth, to slam Fletcher, the team has been drained of talent, to slam Torts, they have far more talent than the tanking teams.

 

[Beef Invictus]

The only talent the Flyers have is what Torts has managed to develop.

TK was coming off two mediocre seasons, Farabee off neck surgery.
The consensus here was that Tippett sucked, was a 4th line candidate and Fletcher got taken.
People wanted to give assets to dump Hayes.
People wanted to trade Laughton ASAP.
TDA was a stupid move.
Frost shouldn't be expected to score more than a 3C.
Cates was a 3LW who had no business playing center.
The entire 4th line should be in the AHL.
Provorov is a flop, York was a bad draft pick (should have taken Caufield instead of York and Brink).
Sanheim was overpaid.

So exactly what talent?
You consistently talk out of both sides of your mouth, to slam Fletcher, the team has been drained of talent, to slam Torts, they have far more talent than the tanking teams.

Well, this is just plain madness.

Truly, Tortorella is a genius who is as misunderstood as he is brilliant.

 

[BrindamoursNose]

Well, this is just plain madness.

Truly, Tortorella is a genius who is as misunderstood as he is brilliant.

And don't forget, he *really* respects Ivan Provorov's courage

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

God. Emperor.

 

[Adtar02]

Just i see the intentional liar is still lying

 

[Beef Invictus]

Tortorella has miraculously transformed everyone and the net result is....the same.

Hmm.

 

[DancingPanther]

From O'Connor's latest article on The Athletic:

You can see why the old boys club wanted torts so vigorously. He thinks exactly like them

 

[Tripod]

"The only talent the Flyers have is what Torts has managed to develop"

Imagine thinking this.

 

[kudymen]

Tortorella has miraculously transformed everyone and the net result is....the same.

Hmm.

Not if you change the sample size to some random amount of the last few games though

Haktsok - I need more than 289 games
Tortorella - I don’t care about the overall record because the last X games

 

[Flyerfan4life]

"The only talent the Flyers have is what Torts has managed to develop"

Imagine thinking this.

ok who said that ?

what a braintrust! hahaaaa

 

[deadhead]

I go back to Dec 7, when JVR returned, York was promoted, then a couple weeks later Allison returned.
That allowed them to roll three lines (and Allison pushed MacEwen down to the 4th line).

York was paired with Provorov, which has resulted in the Russian homophobe's best play in a couple years.

Now this isn't a good team, it has gone from a bad team to a mediocre team.
Talent is still talent, and the Flyers lack some.
But six of the top nine forwards are 25 and under, with Lycksell, Brink, Foerster and Desnoyers looking good in LHV, and Gauthier in college (Avon in the CHL and Kaplan are farther away).

The oldest D-man is Seeler (Braun is now a bench fixture), but only York and Sanheim seem to be in future plans.
Andrae, Attard, Zamula, Ginning Hogberg, only Andrae and Attard are top four candidates.

They need to trade the veterans, and add young talent the next two years.
If you can't land a Bedard, you'd better build quality depth up and down the lineup.

ok who said that ?

what a braintrust! hahaaaa

I was told before the season that Fletcher had drained this team of any explosive talent, so I believed what I read from the Hive.
Was the Hive wrong?