2022/23 Roster Thread XIII: Where the 13th Floor Has Been Located

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deadhead

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Feb 26, 2014
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The sample gets larger - last nine games:

Seeler CF 51.96%, xGF 59.15%
Braun CF 51.93%, xGF 57.61%
Risto CF 45.46%, xGF 53.22%
Sanheim CF 50.37%, xGF 51.82%

MacEwen CF 53.89%, xGF 54.31%
Cates CF 53.87%, xGF 53.08%
Laczynski CF 50.73%, xGF 50.66%
Frost CF 46.51%, xGF 45.22%
Farabee CF 44.03%, xGF 44.91%
Tippett CF 47.85%, xGF 43.92%
 

Ghosts Beer

I saw Goody Fletcher with the Devil!
Feb 10, 2014
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Yeah, that's the frustrating part. All the injuries are going to give Fletcher an excuse this year. I really don't want him in charge of a rebuild. How can we trust someone who's basically forced into a rebuild by his own mistakes to get us out of this mess?
Is it Chuck's mistakes that have forced a rebuild?

Or is it the lack of a sufficient young core from the supposed prior rebuild?
 

flyerslducks

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Feb 15, 2017
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I feel bad for our young players and prospects. They work so hard to get to the NHL and end up getting drafted by the worst organization in the league. Oh what a joy it must be to have all the skill and creativity they’ve developed over the years beaten out of them by the likes of Biceps, Lappy and Torts while Flahr the Hutt shoves buckets of frosted lard down their throats.

All of a sudden, working on the farm or in a factory doesn’t sound so bad.
same I feel so bad for some of the players, especially hart. He has to be sick of losing every year. I have no doubt he would be a stud on a contending team, idk why people think he sucks and don’t look at context. Same with Gibson, still stand by him as well
 

Curufinwe

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Feb 28, 2013
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Eh, Hart was the main reason they were bad in 2021. He was the worst starter in the league.
 
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deadhead

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Is it Chuck's mistakes that have forced a rebuild?

Or is it the lack of a sufficient young core from the supposed prior rebuild?
Both.
Though the emergence of Cates shows why rebuilds take patience, 2017 draft pick.
Frost (2017) and Farabee (2018) are struggling but we know Farabee can play, Frost?
Laczynski (2016) and Allison (2016) are still working their way into the lineup.
 

flyersnorth

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Oct 7, 2019
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Risto is an example of the schizophrenic nature of this FO before Torts was hired. He "played the Flyer way", just listen to Keith Jones get woodies over his hits?#&%!

Stewart, Anisimov are non-issues, no resources, no opportunity costs. Sedlak the same, except in his case they got a bargain.

Niskanen was fine, gave up Gudas, in 2018 it was either rebuild or go for it before G and Voracek started to go downhill, i.e. they had a short-term window to compete.
Braun the same thing, they gave up a 2nd and 3rd, got a 3rd back last season and will probably get a 3rd back this TDL.

Ellis was part of the "win now" approach, bad luck, but the bigger problem was the window was closing, that was a 2018, not a 2020 type of move. Yandle was obviously driven by AV who didn't like Ghost and got an older, slower version who he knew.

Deslauriers is part of the rebuild, rebuilding teams don't just strip the roster down and play plenty of kids, good rebuilds need to establish structure and a tone. Torts wants an aggressive forecheck, and Deslauriers does that every shift, so does MacEwen and Sedlak. That sets the expectations for young forwards when they come up. If young players push him out of the lineup in a year or two, the cost to bury him is $500K, not exactly a franchise killer.

TDA is a gamble, the offensive skills are obvious, the defensive deficiencies as well. So far, there's been no character or clubhouse issues, the question is whether he'll play more disciplined hockey or when does Torts run out of patience.

So you disagree with 100% of what I said? The players I mentioned, those were astute moves by Fletcher?

The point I was making is that Fletcher has targeted a) band-aids or b) awful players, sometimes both within the same player (Nate Thompson comes to mind).

I give him credit for Ellis, which appeared to be a longer-horizon kind of move, but it seems whatever Fletcher touches turns to crap.
 
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Curufinwe

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Will there be any accountability for Tony Angelo gifting the Flames two odd man rushes and two goals in the 1st period last night? The first one was a horrible turnover at the blueline, and on the second one he was down at the goal line while Sanheim was forced to defend two attackers by himself for the second time in ten minutes.
 

BobbyClarkeFan16

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Is it Chuck's mistakes that have forced a rebuild?

Or is it the lack of a sufficient young core from the supposed prior rebuild?
Fletcher's nephew to the rescue!!!!

Of course it's 100% the previous administration that caused this. Schmuckles has NEVER made a bad trade or bad free agent signing. The team is what is because 100% Hextall. How are those Chuck picks working for the club right now? Oh that's right, none of Chuck's first rounders are even on the team, one second river he made has a blown out hip, another is smart enough to stay away Sweden and the other 2nd rounder can't even crack a lower league team in Finland. But yes, Hextall was the problem.....

Let's go Fletcher's nephews!!!!!
 

Curufinwe

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Feb 28, 2013
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He's probably getting "Four More Years!" shirts printed with pictures of Fletcher on them. :laugh:

Flyers are 124-123-36 (.502) since 12/4/2018. That's 22nd overall.

2.87 GF/GP - 19th overall

3.3 GF/GP - 26th overall

Net PP% of 13.7 - 27th overall

Net PK% of 80.2% - 27th overall

 
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deadhead

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So you disagree with 100% of what I said? The players I mentioned, those were astute moves by Fletcher?

The point I was making is that Fletcher has targeted a) band-aids or b) awful players, sometimes both within the same player (Nate Thompson comes to mind).

I give him credit for Ellis, which appeared to be a longer-horizon kind of move, but it seems whatever Fletcher touches turns to crap.
They were dictated by the strategy mandated by the FO.

Fletcher actually did a good job in the summer of 2019, overpaid for Hayes, but we now know Patrick was damaged goods, so if he's given a win now mandate the only choice was Hayes or Duchene (don't know if Duchene was even interested, and he's been just as inconsistent as Hayes the last four years). Niskanen was low cost, Braun was market price but he recouped the 3rd. And they did go deeper in the playoffs than anytime since 2012.

After that, due to the unwillingness to eat AV's contract, they doubled down with disastrous results, though Atkinson/Voracek is a wash (both on IR, Voracek was awful this season, xGFrel -18.35 in 11g), Ghost/Risto was just an awful move. But what was revealed was how thin the team was, no backup for Hart, no depth when Couts went down. After the 2020-21 season, they should have accepted the window had closed, even if Ellis and Couts are healthy, odds are against making the playoffs.

Fletcher could have made better moves, but the underlying problem has always been the self-delusion that they were one or two moves from being a top team, they were one or two perfect moves from squeezing into the playoffs at best.

Which is why Torts has been a breath of fresh air for this organization, no more nonsense about if we just get the injured players back we can make a run at the playoffs. Hopefully, Clarke, Holmgren and Lombardi are out of the loop.
 
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TCTC

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Mar 25, 2013
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Is it Chuck's mistakes that have forced a rebuild?

Or is it the lack of a sufficient young core from the supposed prior rebuild?
I would say both. On one hand Fletcher had to work with what was there when he took over, and it looks like what was there was overrated. On the other hand he had more than enough assets and cap space to build something.
 

flyersnorth

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Oct 7, 2019
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He's probably getting "Four More Years!" shirts printed with pictures of Fletcher on them. :laugh:

Flyers are 124-123-36 (.502) since 12/4/2018. That's 22nd overall.

2.87 GF/GP - 19th overall

3.3 GF/GP - 26th overall

Net PP% of 13.7 - 27th overall

Net PK% of 80.2% - 27th overall


Under Hextall - an overtly rebuilding phase - Flyers were 165-128-58 (.553).
 

Ghosts Beer

I saw Goody Fletcher with the Devil!
Feb 10, 2014
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Fletcher's nephew to the rescue!!!!

Of course it's 100% the previous administration that caused this. Schmuckles has NEVER made a bad trade or bad free agent signing. The team is what is because 100% Hextall. How are those Chuck picks working for the club right now? Oh that's right, none of Chuck's first rounders are even on the team, one second river he made has a blown out hip, another is smart enough to stay away Sweden and the other 2nd rounder can't even crack a lower league team in Finland. But yes, Hextall was the problem.....

Let's go Fletcher's nephews!!!!!
Are you Hextall's nephew?

You don't think that the lack of a young core from Hextall's tenure has a huge part to play in their current state?
 

deadhead

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Feb 26, 2014
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Under Hextall - an overtly rebuilding phase - Flyers were 165-128-58 (.553).
In 2015, Hextall had:
G (28), Couts (23), B Schenn (24), Voracek (26), Simmonds (27), Raffl (27), Laughton (21), Cousins (22),
Gudas (25), MDZ (25), Ghost (22), L Schenn (26)
Mason (27) in goal

So how come, despite 8 1st and 6 2nd rd picks, they sucked in 2018?

The problems in this organization pre-date Fletcher and go much deeper.
 

flyersnorth

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Oct 7, 2019
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They were dictated by the strategy mandated by the FO.

Yes, they were.

And you would be hard-pressed to find another GM that would translate that mandate to win into Deslauriers, MacEwen, Ristolainen, Thompson, Grant, Stewart, Yandle, Anisimov, Bellows, Jones, as players a GM feels is solid supporting depth.

It's not about the mandate. It's about the execution.

On that point, there is no other conclusion supported by facts that Fletcher has unequivocally failed.
 

flyersnorth

Registered User
Oct 7, 2019
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In 2015, Hextall had:
G (28), Couts (23), B Schenn (24), Voracek (26), Simmonds (27), Raffl (27), Laughton (21), Cousins (22),
Gudas (25), MDZ (25), Ghost (22), L Schenn (26)
Mason (27) in goal

So how come, despite 8 1st and 6 2nd rd picks, they sucked in 2018?

The problems in this organization pre-date Fletcher and go much deeper.

100%. There are major systemic problems within the organization that have been around for a long time..
 

FlyerNutter

In the forest, a man learns what it means to live
Jun 22, 2018
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There was definitely a mandate to return to the "old Flyers brand". Desperate to regain some relevance, and falling for the idea that this is the way to do it.

That for me is just as disturbing as being told to win now. It just leads into the concept that no matter how much I may wish for Fletcher to be fired, one guy coming in is not changing the country club. Especially if its the old guard primarily advising on the hiring process.
 
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Ghosts Beer

I saw Goody Fletcher with the Devil!
Feb 10, 2014
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I would say both. On one hand Fletcher had to work with what was there when he took over, and it looks like what was there was overrated. On the other hand he had more than enough assets and cap space to build something.
Did he really? What assets and cap space?

The space he had to use on Hayes because ownership said WIN NOW and if they didn't sign him Morgan Frost would be their #2C?

And what assets? Help me out here. Rubtsov, Laberge, NAK, JOB, Frost, Ratcliffe...

And did the COVID flat cap not happen?

Fletcher didn't fix the problem, but he didn't cause the problem.
 

Hollywood Cannon

I'm Away From My Desk
Jul 17, 2007
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Did he really? What assets and cap space?

The space he had to use on Hayes because ownership said WIN NOW and if they didn't sign him Morgan Frost would be their #2C?

And what assets? Help me out here. Rubtsov, Laberge, NAK, JOB, Frost, Ratcliffe...

And did the COVID flat cap not happen?

Fletcher didn't fix the problem, but he didn't cause the problem.
Ah yes, Kevin Hayes was the ONLY move that they could have made.
 

JojoTheWhale

"You should keep it." -- Striiker
May 22, 2008
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You can get "physical" players who are good at hockey. That is a thing. They just didn't.

They failed at acquiring NHL level talent. They failed to develop talent from within their org. They failed every single possible measurement. That's why it's so unceasingly boring to have these conversations. There isn't even a positive to have a back and forth or a glimmer of hope. Failure defines them from top to bottom.

Chuck Fletcher is 3 weeks short of 4 years on the job. They're worse off in every major bucket than the day he took over. The excuses are pathetic. Yes, Hextall failed in the end. So did Holmgren. So does everybody. That's how the cycle works.
 

TCTC

Registered User
Mar 25, 2013
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Did he really? What assets and cap space?

The space he had to use on Hayes because ownership said WIN NOW and if they didn't sign him Morgan Frost would be their #2C?

And what assets? Help me out here. Rubtsov, Laberge, NAK, JOB, Frost, Ratcliffe...

And did the COVID flat cap not happen?

Fletcher didn't fix the problem, but he didn't cause the problem.
I mean, every young player we had was an asset. And every draft pick.

I was fine with the moves he made his first off-season, and I still think they were the right moves at the time. But it all went downhill from there. Ellis was bad luck, but Ristolainen was bad scouting/evaluation and most of his depth moves have been pointless at best.
 
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