2022/23 Roster Thread XIII: Where the 13th Floor Has Been Located

[Curufinwe]

I don't disagree, but I refuse to accept the Devils as some kind of role model for how to build a team. They've won the draft lottery three times in the last 5 years. With that much luck it's almost impossible to f*** up a rebuild.

I also don't accept that the non-rebuild the Flyers have been doing the past 4 years needs to have failed this badly. They could have spent a 1st, and two 2nds, and $25 mil on acquiring a good dman. There was no reason it had to be wasted on an obvious dud like Risto.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

A coach resigning in late August and hiring a coach that was forced to keep all of the old assistants and not be able to install his own system would be some important context in all of that but...

You know who else was a core of that team? Matt Duchene and Tyson Barrie. What did Sakic do with those players? Hmm...

Once again, basically the same as Chuck.

Context matters.

 

[deadhead]

A coach resigning in late August and hiring a coach that was forced to keep all of the old assistants and not be able to install his own system would be some important context in all of that but...

You know who else was a core of that team? Matt Duchene and Tyson Barrie. What did Sakic do with those players? Hmm...

Once again, basically the same as Chuck.

Context matters.

Duchene was #3 pick, I don't think Frost has the same trade value. And Patrick didn't.
Now WHY did he trade a highly skilled offensive player young enough to be part of a rebuild?
Maybe because he valued two way play and knew offense first players are overvalued by some teams (and fans)?

He also traded ROR for Zadorov, Grigenko, Compher and a 2nd. Can't win 'em all.
Barrie and Kerfoot got them Kadri.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

I don't disagree, but I refuse to accept the Devils as some kind of role model for how to build a team. They've won the draft lottery three times in the last 5 years. With that much luck it's almost impossible to f*** up a rebuild.

chuckles enters chat...

that NP pick and following Ellis trade.. Zing...

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Outside of Hamilton, who is a 1D but not an elite one, most of the D-men they acquired are competent, but not the kind of players who make you a winner, rather, solid complements to a top forward group, led by 2 centers obtained with #1 picks. Which is why you accumulate excess assets, to fill holes - including trading #17 (Smith) for Marino.

The key in successful rebuilds is a little luck, but also a patient FO that will let a GM take 5-6 years to accumulate assets and accept losing. Sakic crashed a 112 point team down to 48 points over a three year period, most GMs would have been summarily canned for that, instead he was allowed to continue with his plan, and a year after hitting rock bottom they were in the playoffs. And they kept the coach of that 48 point team. But that team had MacKinnon, Landeskog, Rantanen as a core group. But it also had plenty of aging veterans, Comeau (30), Bourque (35), Iginlia (39), Beauchamin (36), Soderberg (31), Tyutin (33), Mitchell (32).

I have said nothing about results. This is process. They acquired younger Defensemen by design. The Flyers did not and had to go out and get more later because of it. That is a fact. The cost of Justin Braun wasn't a 2 and a 3. It was the picks plus the cap space plus the opportunity cost plus the cost to replace him plus the opportunity cost of keeping him on the roster down the line. It compounds. It all matters. It compounds at a much higher rate when you take the path of least resistance, an NHL hallmark.

Almost every post you make on the subject talks about how X or Y isn't a difference maker, but high-end teams need to have meaningful depth too. That also matters one holy hell of a lot, albeit in less obvious ways. We all know what has happened in Edmonton. The advantage of modern quantitative sports analysis is that the big stuff is largely figured out, but the margins still have edges to be found and the well-run teams can snowball that.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Duchene was #3 pick, I don't think Frost has the same trade value. And Patrick didn't.
Now WHY did he trade a highly skilled offensive player young enough to be part of a rebuild?
Maybe because he valued two way play and knew offense first players are overvalued by some teams (and fans)?

He also traded ROR for Zadorov, Grigenko, Compher and a 2nd. Can't win 'em all.
Barrie and Kerfoot got them Kadri.

I never said they did? It's the point that Sakic realizes the moment to move on from players for the betterment of the team. Something that Chuck Fletcher has absolutely not shown being that he has just re-signed every single player that's come across his desk.

It's not a rebuild if you keep every single player around.

He traded ROR because he didn't want to give him the contract and there was some type of bad blood between ROR and the franchise at the time. The trade wasn't a win in the everyday sense but again, it was another example of Sakic moving on from a player.

Yes, I am aware that Barrie and Kerfoot got Kadri, thank you. Has Chuck acquired a Kadri in his entire career?

 

[Beef Invictus]

Everything is a difference maker. Everything.

 

[deadhead]

I have said nothing about results. This is process. They acquired younger Defensemen by design. The Flyers did not and had to go out and get more later because of it. That is a fact. The cost of Justin Braun wasn't a 2 and a 3. It was the picks plus the cap space plus the opportunity cost plus the cost to replace him plus the opportunity cost of keeping him on the roster down the line. It compounds. It all matters. It compounds at a much higher rate when you take the path of least resistance, an NHL hallmark.

Almost every post you make on the subject talks about how X or Y isn't a difference maker, but high-end teams need to have meaningful depth too. That also matters one holy hell of a lot, albeit in less obvious ways. We all know what has happened in Edmonton. The advantage of modern quantitative sports analysis is that the big stuff is largely figured out, but the margins still have edges to be found and the well-run teams can snowball that.

The Flyers weren't rebuilding when they traded for Braun, they wanted veteran anchors for young LHDs.

Now should they have rebuild after 2012 or 2018? Sure, but that would have required firing Holmgren, and retiring the senior advisors, to whom the concept of "rebuilding" was anathema (note the only time the Flyers rebuilt, both Clarke and Holmgren were canned).

This is why I think Torts is exactly what this team needed, a HC with the leverage (the AV contract and his contract) and the personality to finally tell the truth - this team needs to rebuild. And by doing so, he's put the FO on notice they can't smoke and mirror their way out of this.

Scott needs to be fired b/c a smart executive would have realized that it's easier to sell a rebuild to a knowledgeable fan base than an "aggressive reload" when it's obvious the team lacks top end talent.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

The Flyers weren't rebuilding when they traded for Braun, they wanted veteran anchors for young LHDs.

Correct. They prioritized fit. Still are, in fact. This is why they're bleeding out.

Win-now pieces don't have to be 32. And if you're going to go out and get one of those guys, just take the one the market is undervaluing. Don't go out and pay top dollar.

 

[Beef Invictus]

The Flyers weren't rebuilding when they traded for Braun, they wanted veteran anchors for young LHDs.

Now should they have rebuild after 2012 or 2018? Sure, but that would have required firing Holmgren, and retiring the senior advisors, to whom the concept of "rebuilding" was anathema (note the only time the Flyers rebuilt, both Clarke and Holmgren were canned).

This is why I think Torts is exactly what this team needed, a HC with the leverage (the AV contract and his contract) and the personality to finally tell the truth - this team needs to rebuild. And by doing so, he's put the FO on notice they can't smoke and mirror their way out of this.

Scott needs to be fired b/c a smart executive would have realized that it's easier to sell a rebuild to a knowledgeable fan base than an "aggressive reload" when it's obvious the team lacks top end talent.

They weren't rebuilding when they re-signed Braun this summer either. Nor are they rebuilding now.

Tortorella isn't in charge and he has absolutely no history of bullying GMs around.

 

[landsbergfan]

I never said they did? It's the point that Sakic realizes the moment to move on from players for the betterment of the team. Something that Chuck Fletcher has absolutely not shown being that he has just re-signed every single player that's come across his desk.

It's not a rebuild if you keep every single player around.

He traded ROR because he didn't want to give him the contract and there was some type of bad blood between ROR and the franchise at the time. The trade wasn't a win in the everyday sense but again, it was another example of Sakic moving on from a player.

Yes, I am aware that Barrie and Kerfoot got Kadri, thank you. Has Chuck acquired a Kadri in his entire career?

He acquired Ryan Hartman

 

[landsbergfan]

The Devils promoted Fitzgerald to GM in 2020. They have two AGMs, both of which started low in the org ~5 years ago. MacKinnon was promoted in 2020, Madigan this year. Tyler Dellow and Matt Cane were hired in 2019.

Yes, 2019 is when they started to get their shit together. It's not the same regime.

They had to make over their entire D corps too. Every team will have hits and misses, but look at who they acquired:

• Ryan Murray, 27
• Dougie Hamilton, freshly turned 28 and a true 1D
• Siegenthaler, 23
• Ryan Graves, 26
• Christian Jaros, 25
• John Marino, 25

All potential long-term solutions. I'm sure that was random chance.

The process of the trades too. Seeing opportunity and taking it when they had the chance. Graves needed to be sent somewhere, Pittsburgh needed to move a defenseman and NJD realized they could move on from Ty Smith early, Siegenthaler was under the radar and needed a spot to play. They signed Hamilton when they had tons of cap space.

 

[TCTC]

100%. There is a lot of luck involved.

I think the point is that they put luck on their side, and made some more future-looking moves and acquisitions, and accepted that it would take time? They didn't rush - or at least that's my perception.

You could argue that DeAngelo is really one of the few future-looking moves that Fletch has made. He's young, has a solid offensive skillset, and could be part of a rebuild. I doubt that's why he got him, though.

But Ellis, Niskanen, Braun, Deslauriers, Anisimov, Stewart, Yandle, Ristolainen.... none of those are particularly astute, and they signal a front office still bent on maximizing the on-ice result in pursuit of the playoffs. That was Fletcher's mandate.

I think we're entering a forced-rebuild phase where they can't ignore reality any longer. The sheer amount of injuries might save Fletcher's job, unfortunately. And if they have to pivot, they need to do so having given out large contracts to middling or seriously injured players. And having bled so many draft picks in the pursuit of playoffs.

Yeah, that's the frustrating part. All the injuries are going to give Fletcher an excuse this year. I really don't want him in charge of a rebuild. How can we trust someone who's basically forced into a rebuild by his own mistakes to get us out of this mess?

 

[Danko]

Pretty Much...Fletcher is going to get a pass since they have so many injuries and Torts/Fletcher had previously said they need to "Stabilize" this year. They keep saying they are trying to build a culture and see what they have...all of this points to them just running it back again next year regardless of the outcome.

Also, Dave Scott doesn't give a shit and Fletcher is President. He's not going to fire himself. Brian Roberts alone has the power to save us

 

[mize370]

The type of players and coaches the management here want are not going to change until we get new blood in the presidents chair. All the advisors chairs. The general managers chair. Anyone with a chair in scouting.
We still run things and look for players from the 70's glory days. Oh doze hitz!!

"Clarkie. Barber, How about the Caufield kid? he can score!"
No way. York is the go to here, See him hit in that WJC game against Norway? We will hit the puck into the net for goals."

 

[deadhead]

You could argue that DeAngelo is really one of the few future-looking moves that Fletch has made. He's young, has a solid offensive skillset, and could be part of a rebuild. I doubt that's why he got him, though.

But Ellis, Niskanen, Braun, Deslauriers, Anisimov, Stewart, Yandle, Ristolainen.... none of those are particularly astute, and they signal a front office still bent on maximizing the on-ice result in pursuit of the playoffs. That was Fletcher's mandate.

Risto is an example of the schizophrenic nature of this FO before Torts was hired. He "played the Flyer way", just listen to Keith Jones get woodies over his hits?#&%!

Stewart, Anisimov are non-issues, no resources, no opportunity costs. Sedlak the same, except in his case they got a bargain.

Niskanen was fine, gave up Gudas, in 2018 it was either rebuild or go for it before G and Voracek started to go downhill, i.e. they had a short-term window to compete.
Braun the same thing, they gave up a 2nd and 3rd, got a 3rd back last season and will probably get a 3rd back this TDL.

Ellis was part of the "win now" approach, bad luck, but the bigger problem was the window was closing, that was a 2018, not a 2020 type of move. Yandle was obviously driven by AV who didn't like Ghost and got an older, slower version who he knew.

Deslauriers is part of the rebuild, rebuilding teams don't just strip the roster down and play plenty of kids, good rebuilds need to establish structure and a tone. Torts wants an aggressive forecheck, and Deslauriers does that every shift, so does MacEwen and Sedlak. That sets the expectations for young forwards when they come up. If young players push him out of the lineup in a year or two, the cost to bury him is $500K, not exactly a franchise killer.

TDA is a gamble, the offensive skills are obvious, the defensive deficiencies as well. So far, there's been no character or clubhouse issues, the question is whether he'll play more disciplined hockey or when does Torts run out of patience.

 

[Fire Tortorella]

Really starting to run out of forwards.

 

[deadhead]

Too bad Lycksell is injured, guess J Cates is the next call up.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Risto is an example of the schizophrenic nature of this FO before Torts was hired. He "played the Flyer way", just listen to Keith Jones get woodies over his hits?#&%!

Stewart, Anisimov are non-issues, no resources, no opportunity costs. Sedlak the same, except in his case they got a bargain.

Niskanen was fine, gave up Gudas, in 2018 it was either rebuild or go for it before G and Voracek started to go downhill, i.e. they had a short-term window to compete.
Braun the same thing, they gave up a 2nd and 3rd, got a 3rd back last season and will probably get a 3rd back this TDL.

Ellis was part of the "win now" approach, bad luck, but the bigger problem was the window was closing, that was a 2018, not a 2020 type of move. Yandle was obviously driven by AV who didn't like Ghost and got an older, slower version who he knew.

Deslauriers is part of the rebuild, rebuilding teams don't just strip the roster down and play plenty of kids, good rebuilds need to establish structure and a tone. Torts wants an aggressive forecheck, and Deslauriers does that every shift, so does MacEwen and Sedlak. That sets the expectations for young forwards when they come up. If young players push him out of the lineup in a year or two, the cost to bury him is $500K, not exactly a franchise killer.

TDA is a gamble, the offensive skills are obvious, the defensive deficiencies as well. So far, there's been no character or clubhouse issues, the question is whether he'll play more disciplined hockey or when does Torts run out of patience.

Tortorella is not running the front office.

And you've been dead wrong about him every step of the way.

Nothing about how this team functions has changed.

 

[Cody Webster]

Hey guys, I found the revolving door the Phantoms and Flyers are using...makes sense as to why the door hasn't been used like we were told it was going to be

 

[Fire Tortorella]

Too bad Lycksell is injured, guess J Cates is the next call up.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

Really starting to run out of forwards.

i wonder if maybe this out dated style of play about being hard to play against isnt just a recipe for injuring every player on the roster..

if you go into every game with the mindset of laying out bodies... then the other team will look to do the same..

if perhaps we concentrated on. ohhhh i dont know... maybe skill players and skill moves mayhaps our players wont be droppin like flies..

but nm lets continue to lay out those HiTZ while we scrap the barrel for any old dog with a pulse still..cuz its working soooo well...

 

[Beef Invictus]

i wonder if maybe this out dated style of play about beibg hard to play against isnt just a recipe for injuribg every player on the roster..

if you go into every game with the mindset of laying out bodies... then tge other team will look to do the same..

if perhaps we concentrated on. ohhhh i dont know... maybe skill players and skill moves mayhaps our players wont be droppin like flies..

but nm lets continue to lay out those HiTZ while we scrap the barrel for any old dog with a pulse still..cuz its working soooo well...

Pushing every player to GET BIG carries risk too.

 

[BiggE]

You cannot make this shit up.

Next up they’ll be pulling random fans out of the stands and asking them if they can skate. Odds are they will find upgrades for at least a third of the roster.

 

[Fire Tortorella]